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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: "If two people want to fuck, let them fuck" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #21734057 - 05/28/15 08:18 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
"In the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission blacks comprise 46.4 percent of the employees. The "affirmative action" or racial quota target for proportional representation for the EEOC is 6.4% black employees. Blacks are thus over represented in EEOC employment by 625%"  :rofl2:

I think we all now understand why this EEOC is nothing more than a complete joke.



The question still is not about the numbers (it never is).  The question is whether blacks get preferential hiring treatment over more qualified whites. If so, then the EEOC could be sued for discrimination.  If the discrepancy is simply because blacks are more interested in EEOC positions, and apply at a much higher rate, then there's not a discrimination problem.  See how that works?




Exactly. Stone and qman, you have yet to show a case where a company was successfully sued on the basis of having too few minorities. The question is whether or not a company actively discriminates, not how many minorities they hire.

If two equally qualified (however that is defined for the position) candidates apply and the minority one is chosen, it is fine. However, if the majority or minority candidate is less qualified and they are chosen, it could be discrimination. That is what a company can get sued for. Numbers do not form the basis of a lawsuit, but can provide evidence.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: "If two people want to fuck, let them fuck" [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21734919 - 05/28/15 11:21 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Why shouldnt a business be able to discriminate?  What about women only gyms?  Can I sue them?  Do you let everyone into your house who cones to your door?  Can I sue you if you don't let me in?


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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Onlineqman
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Re: "If two people want to fuck, let them fuck" [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21736135 - 05/29/15 09:40 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
"In the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission blacks comprise 46.4 percent of the employees. The "affirmative action" or racial quota target for proportional representation for the EEOC is 6.4% black employees. Blacks are thus over represented in EEOC employment by 625%"  :rofl2:

I think we all now understand why this EEOC is nothing more than a complete joke.



The question still is not about the numbers (it never is).  The question is whether blacks get preferential hiring treatment over more qualified whites. If so, then the EEOC could be sued for discrimination.  If the discrepancy is simply because blacks are more interested in EEOC positions, and apply at a much higher rate, then there's not a discrimination problem.  See how that works?




The question is whether or not a company actively discriminates, not how many minorities they hire.





That's the bullshit rationalization the EEOC uses to get its quotas, apparently you're gullible enough to believe it's propoganda.

It's funny that they only go after companies that have a below black population relative percentage?  I wonder why?  :lol:  Why can't there be "discriminatory hiring practices" when the black percentage exceeds the normal relative percentage?  Somehow the EEOC is just fine with those circumstances.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: "If two people want to fuck, let them fuck" [Re: qman]
    #21736717 - 05/29/15 12:41 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
The question is whether or not a company actively discriminates, not how many minorities they hire.



That's the bullshit rationalization the EEOC uses to get its quotas, apparently you're gullible enough to believe it's propoganda.



No one has provided evidence of hiring quotas; it's all just a conspiracy theory.

Quote:

qman said:
It's funny that they only go after companies that have a below black population relative percentage?  I wonder why?  :lol:  Why can't there be "discriminatory hiring practices" when the black percentage exceeds the normal relative percentage?  Somehow the EEOC is just fine with those circumstances.



Not true:

White firefighters awarded $2.5 million in discrimination case


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: "If two people want to fuck, let them fuck" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #21737193 - 05/29/15 02:53 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

For a guy who considers himself pretty special, you sure miss a lot (or pretend to).

Quote:

New Haven officials invalidated the test results because none of the black firefighters scored high enough to be considered for the positions. City officials stated that they feared a lawsuit over the test's disproportionate exclusion of certain racial groups from promotion under the controversial "disparate impact" theory of liability.[2][3]




You can call it a quota or a wet fart. It still smells like shit.

Does the federal government have a quota system that they have the stones to call a quota system? No, but it doesn't mean there isn't one. If they can sue because you don't have enough minorities, it's a quota system.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: "If two people want to fuck, let them fuck" [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21737423 - 05/29/15 03:59 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
For a guy who considers himself pretty special, you sure miss a lot (or pretend to).

Quote:

New Haven officials invalidated the test results because none of the black firefighters scored high enough to be considered for the positions. City officials stated that they feared a lawsuit over the test's disproportionate exclusion of certain racial groups from promotion under the controversial "disparate impact" theory of liability.




You can call it a quota or a wet fart. It still smells like shit.



First of all, the article I linked to was about Buffalo firefighters, not New Haven.  But regardless, white firefighters won in BOTH of those cases, because they were wrongfully discriminated against.  It was totally incorrect to say whites can't win discrimination cases.

And no, I don't consider myself special just because I point out the flaws of your arguments; anyone can do that.

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
If they can sue because you don't have enough minorities, it's a quota system.



We're still waiting for anyone to show a case where that's happened.  In all cases shown thus far, discrimination was the deciding factor, not numbers.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: "If two people want to fuck, let them fuck" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21737509 - 05/29/15 04:29 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
anyone can do that.




Anyone can. Perhaps someday you will. Based on past performance, you lack the ability.

Regardless of your inability to do so, it doesn't matter what you call it. If you can be sued for not having enough minorities, it's a quota.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleShins
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Re: "If two people want to fuck, let them fuck" [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21737542 - 05/29/15 04:38 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

AA is not a quota just like the ACA is not a tax.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: "If two people want to fuck, let them fuck" [Re: Shins]
    #21738092 - 05/29/15 06:59 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Why shouldnt a business be able to discriminate?  What about women only gyms?  Can I sue them?  Do you let everyone into your house who cones to your door?  Can I sue you if you don't let me in?




Businesses shouldn't be able to discriminate because we've decided as a society that we shouldn't allow it.

Women only gyms are fine because part of their business model is for women who feel uncomfortable around men and want a safe place. Moreover, men can go to any number of other gyms, it is not like they are being denied a service entirely.

I'm not going to answer the question about houses because you know as well as I that it is a ridiculous argument.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: "If two people want to fuck, let them fuck" [Re: qman] * 1
    #21738103 - 05/29/15 07:02 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
That's the bullshit rationalization the EEOC uses to get its quotas, apparently you're gullible enough to believe it's propoganda.

It's funny that they only go after companies that have a below black population relative percentage?  I wonder why? 




Because if a company doesn't discriminate against blacks then the population won't be lower. Whoops, what I meant to write is: If the population of blacks is not lower, then the company doesn't discriminate against them. It makes no sense to pursue companies who aren't being discriminatory.

Quote:

Why can't there be "discriminatory hiring practices" when the black percentage exceeds the normal relative percentage?  Somehow the EEOC is just fine with those circumstances.




Those can indeed be cases of discriminatory hiring practices. But just using the number of workers of each race is not enough to build a case.


EDIT: Wording changed.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


Edited by BoldAsLove (05/29/15 07:09 PM)


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Registered: 03/10/11
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Re: "If two people want to fuck, let them fuck" [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21738110 - 05/29/15 07:03 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
If they can sue because you don't have enough minorities, it's a quota system.




Can you please provide an example where a company was sued because they didn't have enough minorities?


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: "If two people want to fuck, let them fuck" [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21738122 - 05/29/15 07:05 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Because if a company doesn't discriminate against blacks then the population won't be lower. .




That's not true at all.  Why don't you assume that black discriminate against the company?  What about statistical fluctuation?  What about real cultural difference of values that lead to different skill sets and proclivities?  What about places that are filled with blacks, do they discriminate against whites?  No, that is not sufficient evidence to label them with one of the worst labels our society puts on people and groups.


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Posts: 2,549
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Re: "If two people want to fuck, let them fuck" [Re: DieCommie]
    #21738142 - 05/29/15 07:08 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Because if a company doesn't discriminate against blacks then the population won't be lower. .




That's not true at all.  Why don't you assume that black discriminate against the company?  What about statistical fluctuation?  What about real cultural difference of values that lead to different skill sets and proclivities?  What about places that are filled with blacks, do they discriminate against whites?  No, that is not sufficient evidence to label them with one of the worst labels our society puts on people and groups.




My mistake, I got my wording backwards. What I meant to right is: "If the population of blacks is not lower, then the company doesn't discriminate against them." I'll change it.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
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Re: "If two people want to fuck, let them fuck" [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21744921 - 05/31/15 02:05 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
If they can sue because you don't have enough minorities, it's a quota system.




Can you please provide an example where a company was sued because they didn't have enough minorities?




NYCFD sued because of an insufficient number of blacks.

http://nypost.com/2012/01/20/bloomberg-slams-garaufis-over-fdny-discrimination-ruling/

Quote:

Garaufis’ ruling stems from a 2007 lawsuit filed against the fire department by the US Justice Department, with the aim of forcing the city to hire more minorities at an agency where white men make up 93 percent of the 11,000 firefighters in its ranks – in a city with a far more diverse population.




They aren't hard to find.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: "If two people want to fuck, let them fuck" [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21745011 - 05/31/15 02:30 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Maybe fal will stop his constant refrain of "show me one case" now?


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: "If two people want to fuck, let them fuck" [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21745290 - 05/31/15 03:53 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Can you please provide an example where a company was sued because they didn't have enough minorities?




NYCFD sued because of an insufficient number of blacks.

http://nypost.com/2012/01/20/bloomberg-slams-garaufis-over-fdny-discrimination-ruling/

Quote:

Garaufis’ ruling stems from a 2007 lawsuit filed against the fire department by the US Justice Department, with the aim of forcing the city to hire more minorities at an agency where white men make up 93 percent of the 11,000 firefighters in its ranks – in a city with a far more diverse population.




They aren't hard to find.




The New York City Fire Department is not a company; they are government owned. Also, while the numbers may have brought the case up, the lawsuit was ultimately filed because of a written test that the FD used that did not test skills necessary for the job, but that (allegedly) was more difficult for minorities with worse education. So, the lawsuit was not because of a quota, but because of a possibly discriminatory hiring practice.

The case was resolved in a bit of a bullshit way though.

Quote:

The city, which was taken to court over allegations of institutional bias against minority FDNY applicants, agreed to “broad injunctive relief and back pay,” according to the Center for Constitutional Rights.




Why should they get back-pay? At one point there was also an argument for retroactive seniority, which would be even more bullshit, but I don't know if it was part of the settlement.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: "If two people want to fuck, let them fuck" [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21746924 - 06/01/15 12:13 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Maybe fal will stop his constant refrain of "show me one case" now?



:facepalm3:  I said many posts ago that affirmative action DOES exist in the Government.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: "If two people want to fuck, let them fuck" [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21747446 - 06/01/15 06:13 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
So, the lawsuit was not because of a quota, but because of a possibly discriminatory hiring practice.




:lmafo:

I didn't expect you to agree but...

Quote:

Garaufis’ ruling stems from a 2007 lawsuit filed against the fire department by the US Justice Department, with the aim of forcing the city to hire more minorities at an agency where white men make up 93 percent of the 11,000 firefighters in its ranks – in a city with a far more diverse population.




A quota by another name still smells like shit.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
Re: "If two people want to fuck, let them fuck" [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #21748045 - 06/01/15 11:36 AM (8 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
So, the lawsuit was not because of a quota, but because of a possibly discriminatory hiring practice.




:lmafo:

I didn't expect you to agree but...

Quote:

Garaufis’ ruling stems from a 2007 lawsuit filed against the fire department by the US Justice Department, with the aim of forcing the city to hire more minorities at an agency where white men make up 93 percent of the 11,000 firefighters in its ranks – in a city with a far more diverse population.




A quota by another name still smells like shit.




Please read your own article:

Quote:

The judge concluded after the trial that the low percentage of minorities in the FDNY is “a direct result and vestige of the city’s pattern and practice of discrimination against black firefighter candidates.




Quote:

The judge had ruled previously that the FDNY’s entrance test unfairly discriminates against black and Hispanic applicants.




It also bears repeating that I asked for an example of a COMPANY being sued, not a government organization. I recognize that affirmative action can get pretty egregious in the government, but this thread has been discussing whether the government forces affirmative action upon private companies.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Onlineqman
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Re: "If two people want to fuck, let them fuck" [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21748284 - 06/01/15 12:32 PM (8 years, 7 months ago)

http://www.fredericknewspost.com/public/associated_press/maryland-today-eeoc-mccormick-schmick-s-settles-md-lawsuit/article_b5668aa4-3db9-11e4-8904-001a4bcf6878.html

"Government officials say they're settled a lawsuit accusing two McCormick & Schmick's restaurants in Baltimore of racially discriminating against job applicants and employees who are black"

"The US Equal Employment Opportunity Commission say McCormick & Schmick's agreed to settle their lawsuit...The settlement establishes a $1.3 million claims fund for eligible employees at the two restaurants. McCormick & Schmick's has also AGREED TO NUMERICAL GOALS FOR HIRING BLACK APPLICANTS."

Nothing to see here, no quotas, just move on people. :rofl2:


Edited by qman (06/01/15 12:33 PM)


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