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deff
just love everyone



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reasons for spiritual engagement
#21682296 - 05/15/15 09:24 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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there are different reasons why people get into spirituality and spiritual practice. a common one is to avoid suffering or to fix oneself of perceived problems. as a former practicing buddhist i held this notion of spirituality as a remedy to suffering, but now i've changed my view on it quite a bit.
to me, taking spirituality as a remedy to suffering has two downsides. one, focusing on your own suffering and attempting to rid yourself of it can often intensify it. as the saying goes - wherever focus goes, energy flows also focusing on the negative, even in 'solving' the negative, seems to lower your "vibration" of being imo. the second reason why this approach to me is not as good is because once you succeed in solving your suffering then you're done with spirituality even if there was still more room for spiritual development and refinement possible. to me, this is a rather small view/scope of spiritual intention.
i find a greater focus for spiritual engagement is love. if you're motivated in spiritual practice by love then it is never exhausted. there's no longer an upper limit on your growth like there is with the "antidote to suffering / solving one's problems" approach. love can always expand and expand also, by focusing on love you raise your vibration and increase in love (as again, energy flows where attention goes). so love to me seems like the best intention to have with spirituality 
what do you think? and what motivates your spiritual path?
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Kickle
Wanderer


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Re: reasons for spiritual engagement [Re: deff] 1
#21682306 - 05/15/15 09:30 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Escaping suffering is not some easy to achieve end goal IMO
Having not escaped suffering myself, I have no idea what it is to achieve that. But from the glimpses I have had, I don't think it results in the eradication of spirituality but rather the optimization of it. Suffering IME gets in the way of most if not all spiritual ideals. Remove suffering, and spiritual ideals can blossom, not wither.
It has been my experience that efforts to remove suffering result in blossoming warmth, kindness, compassion, patience, honesty, etc. Was this not true IYE? Was it that the less suffering, the less of these things?
I started down the path to help other's with their suffering I continue down the path for the same reason but with a different focus now I focus on alleviating my own suffering as that seems to be the best way to accomplish the original goal
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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deff
just love everyone



Registered: 05/01/04
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Re: reasons for spiritual engagement [Re: Kickle]
#21682329 - 05/15/15 09:40 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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well i'm not saying that removing suffering isn't a good thing or that suffering is somehow needed. just rather that the focus on removing the negative (suffering) often seems imo to cause suffering to linger and seem worse than it is. likewise, focusing on love seems to intensify our experience of the positive side. so to me, it seems more fruitful to think "may everyone have happiness and peace and love" rather than "may everyone be free of suffering" as naturally peace/love/etc is a state free from suffering when it's truly experienced.
if one takes the attitude that we have to rid everything of suffering and that suffering is so bad, then i think it will be as you say not an easy to achieve goal. to me, this attitude only causes suffering to linger and seem more all-pervasive to our perception. the attitude of love on the other hand automatically transcends suffering to a certain degree by just not focusing on it and instead focusing and intensifying the positive (love). these have been my observations of my own practice anyways
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thebitterbuffalo26
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Re: reasons for spiritual engagement [Re: Kickle]
#21682351 - 05/15/15 09:48 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Is escaping suffering by loving and helping others considered spiritual engagement, even if one doesn't label it as such? Because I feel focusing on others and putting yourself back a little bit really does help alleviate personal suffering, but only because it puts ones ego into perspective.
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Kickle
Wanderer


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Re: reasons for spiritual engagement [Re: deff]
#21682360 - 05/15/15 09:52 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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I think there's a lot of validity in what you're saying
I like the approach of cutting out the middle-man as it were. Why remove obstacles to get to love rather than just going straight to love? And if one is able, I think it's a great approach.
Many IMO haven't a clue about love due to confusion and a lack of clarity. I include myself here. That is why removal is more important for me - for the clarity it brings. I think the writer of the cloud of unknowing has an interesting take on it as well. Forget everything you know until you can singly focus on love. It's a nice approach and what I see you advocating IMO because it doesn't say everything you know is an obstacle, but it also doesn't deny that focusing on those things prevents one from focusing on love.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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deff
just love everyone



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Re: reasons for spiritual engagement [Re: Kickle]
#21682409 - 05/15/15 10:07 AM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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yeah and there's nothing wrong with the approach of removing suffering - it has a lot of beauty to it too and i think it's still a very viable approach. just from my own observations, when i switched from that to instead focusing on increasing the positive, i immediately became happier - and incidentally when you're happy you're also free from suffering 
Quote:
thebitterbuffalo26 said: Is escaping suffering by loving and helping others considered spiritual engagement, even if one doesn't label it as such? Because I feel focusing on others and putting yourself back a little bit really does help alleviate personal suffering, but only because it puts ones ego into perspective.
yeah it definitely doesn't have to be labelled or considered spiritual to be effective. if it's working for you then that's what's important anything we do to start to care about other people as opposed to just ourselves will increase our happiness and diminish our suffering imo
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PocketLady



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Re: reasons for spiritual engagement [Re: deff]
#21683509 - 05/15/15 03:09 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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That's a very interesting question Deff. It seems like a desire to escape suffering is a primary motivation for a lot of spiritual seekers. In my case that's true anyway. Maybe with the exception of people who have used psychedelics, I find it hard to imagine someone who is very satisfied with their lives exploring spirituality in any real depth, because it seems to me that for the amount of discipline required that you really have to want it.
I was talking to my parents last week about how much my spiritual practice has become part of my life. I brought it up with my Dad (who is a fairly emotional guy and has had some rocky patches in the past), and he was really interested, wanted to know more about meditation. He said he has noticed how much his mind controls him and makes him miserable. He ended up buying The Power Of Now the very next day on my recommendation.
My Mum on the other hand, she is not the kind of lady who really struggles with her emotions. She just gets on with things. I brought up the subject of meditation with her, and she just remarked that she thought it was "boring". Not the act of meditation so much, as the outcome. The conversation lasted about 2 minutes and she really wasn't interested. What's interesting is that when I was growing up I always viewed my Mum as being a bit more open-minded than my Dad.
Happiness seems to be the primary motivation for pretty much everything we do as individuals. When I first started out, it was all about escape from suffering and negative experiences. But now, I think it is more about recognising and transcending illusions, both positive and negative. I feel like only once I've done that can I truly find permanent unconditional love. I do hear what you are saying about switching the focus though, and maybe that's something I need to work on. It seems like it is all a delicate synthesis and balancing act
-------------------- Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity. The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death. Tomorrow, when resurrection comes, The heart that is not in love will fail the test. ~ Rumi The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny. ~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir
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deff
just love everyone



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Re: reasons for spiritual engagement [Re: PocketLady]
#21683566 - 05/15/15 03:23 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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thanks for sharing that's interesting about your Mom and Dad. I think initially, for most people, it's unpleasant life situations and personal suffering that make them seek out spirituality (or perhaps some really intense psychedelic trips ) but I've found that focusing on the positive really makes it a much more joyful affair, and the results seem to come quicker 
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...I feel like only once I've done that can I truly find permanent unconditional love
perhaps Kickle's comment might be applicable here:
Quote:
I like the approach of cutting out the middle-man as it were. Why remove obstacles to get to love rather than just going straight to love?
while there may be some obstacles to really fully becoming the reality of unconditional love - i think bringing the goal (love) into the present and working with it alongside the rest of the path (clearing illusions etc) is a more productive approach. so even if the spiritual work is done to clear negative stuff, doing it with an attitude of love i think will make it more enjoyable and also more effective and when you find yourself loving strongly, the obstacles no longer seem to be there imo 
i think gratitude is also a great entrance into this kind of love. gratitude seems to bring acceptance and openness which makes things work more smoothly
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PocketLady



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Re: reasons for spiritual engagement [Re: deff]
#21683634 - 05/15/15 03:43 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Interesting. I think I have shied away from this in the past for fear (and experience of) creating a battle-like situation between positive and negative in my mind. I've always just tried to stick with finding acceptance, no matter what comes, and not trying to force anything that isn't already there. Don't get me wrong, I use loving intention during meditation, especially to help clear stuff out, but I've never tried to push it in daily life. But I'm open to it.
-------------------- Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity. The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death. Tomorrow, when resurrection comes, The heart that is not in love will fail the test. ~ Rumi The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny. ~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir
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deff
just love everyone



Registered: 05/01/04
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Re: reasons for spiritual engagement [Re: PocketLady]
#21683650 - 05/15/15 03:47 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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love seems to be a good thing in every situation seems to really transform inner stuff gracefully
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PocketLady



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Re: reasons for spiritual engagement [Re: deff]
#21683685 - 05/15/15 03:51 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Oh I'm sure it is a great thing for every situation I just don't understand how it's possible to let the negative stuff come up, and release it, whilst maintaining love throughout. In my experience the "bad" stuff has to be felt to be released. Doesn't just trying to love everything lead to a denial of other feelings?
-------------------- Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity. The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death. Tomorrow, when resurrection comes, The heart that is not in love will fail the test. ~ Rumi The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny. ~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir
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deff
just love everyone



Registered: 05/01/04
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Re: reasons for spiritual engagement [Re: deff]
#21683689 - 05/15/15 03:53 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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oh and this reminds me of Matt Kahn's teachings (really good teachings imo) - a central teaching of his is "whatever arises, love that" - he deals a lot with self-love and loving everything that arises within and without us. a central practice of his is to say "i love you" inwardly to your own heart or internally towards other people. it takes a while of doing the "i love you's" internally to yourself until they begin to really sink in you might want to check him out on youtube if this interests you
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PocketLady



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Re: reasons for spiritual engagement [Re: deff]
#21683702 - 05/15/15 03:57 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Thanks, I will
-------------------- Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity. The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death. Tomorrow, when resurrection comes, The heart that is not in love will fail the test. ~ Rumi The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny. ~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir
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deff
just love everyone



Registered: 05/01/04
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Re: reasons for spiritual engagement [Re: PocketLady]
#21683820 - 05/15/15 04:41 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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this is a good video of his about this topic 
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once in a lifetime
sun child



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Re: reasons for spiritual engagement [Re: deff]
#21684055 - 05/15/15 05:43 PM (8 years, 8 months ago) |
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Get to your true self as quickly as possible, and stay there; this would be the message of almost all wisdom traditions, I would say.
There are a lot of ways of looking at it, should one help others or help oneself - the fact is, one has to get one's hands free first, before one can untie anothers'.
Deep peace, remaining solid, calm, without fear, these are some helpful traits. I think the search for peace, or the search for truth, has been my classic motivation. In this it's not different from any other, just searching for enlightenment - it was just that, as my studies progressed and I encountered people like Milarepa, for instance, I saw that they were really masters, and left a lot of the rest of stuff in the dust. Later on Sri Ramakrishna, etc.
In line with what Kickle is talking about, Ram Dass shared the idea, essentially Taoist in origin, that the best thing I can do for you is work on myself; the best thing you can do for me is work on yourself. Milarepa said something along the lines of "Until the end of time, there will be innumerable beings for you to save, innumerable opportunities to help save others[ - essentially - don't be in a rush to do so.], first attain Buddhahood." Then naturally there is the allegory of struggling in a river: get on dry land, settled, then seek to help others. Mila mentions this but it's a classic Buddhist analogy.
Then there is the reason - we only affect others to the level which we've attained, it's not really possible to work for peace through non-peaceful means. Yet once peace is attained, then it becomes easier to engage in peace work in the world.
Then also I would say we ought to connect these things to real world application. Eventually it just gets to a point where you do what's right because compassion is stronger than ambition. And that can happen very early, if you allow it.
-------------------- Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland Julia Delaney, Bothy Band Rasta Girl, Sister Carol Genesis, Jorma K I Wish You Peace, Lawrence Laughing Do Your Thing, Moondog large . . music garden . . veryall peace them hiStarhouse - main Time Traveler's Guide
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