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Offlineclam_dude
stranger in astrange land

Registered: 09/11/03
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A thought on gun control
    #21667603 - 05/11/15 11:52 PM (5 years, 5 months ago)

To any second amendment supporters on here - what would you say if a group of muslim extremists located here and started stockpiling weapons, legally?  This would at least make you uncomfortable, no?


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


Edited by clam_dude (05/11/15 11:53 PM)


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Invisibleskeet157
That one guy
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Re: A thought on gun control [Re: clam_dude]
    #21667683 - 05/12/15 12:08 AM (5 years, 5 months ago)

Not any less comfortable than I already am with people obtaining firearms illegally. I'm just as strapped as they are. I say bring it on.

If the rest of the country exercises their right to bear arms,they Muslim extreamists wouldn't stand a chance.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: A thought on gun control [Re: skeet157]
    #21667714 - 05/12/15 12:18 AM (5 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

skeet157 said:
...I say bring it on.

...Muslim extreamists wouldn't stand a chance.



A chance of what?  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: A thought on gun control [Re: skeet157]
    #21667736 - 05/12/15 12:28 AM (5 years, 5 months ago)

Fair enough, but what if it's a large group of people - thousands.  And they intend to die fighting.  Yes, perhaps they could in the end be defeated.  But surely it wouldn't be pretty.  It seems to me that less guns floating around out there is better than more.  Although I guess the damage has been done now that there are so many illegally owned guns out there - many of which were originally manufactured and sold legally. 

I mean it's like "oh woops, we made a whole bunch of guns that are now in the hands of criminals.  Guess we better make a whole bunch more."


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Registered: 11/04/10
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Re: A thought on gun control [Re: clam_dude]
    #21669586 - 05/12/15 01:36 PM (5 years, 5 months ago)

The issue with your scenario is one i feel has been addressed before. The problem with criminals is that they don't care about the law, if a large terror cell formed here in the states they're not gonna say "well shit now we can't pull off our plan because the law says we can't have guns!"

If you look at some of the most violent cities in the country you'll notice they have extremely rigid gun control and bans. I live in a very republican state in a city with hundreds of thousands of people and almost every person i know has guns. Gun crime isn't an issue here, its just not. There is no direct causal relationship between prevalence of firearms and violent crime.


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Offlineclam_dude
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Re: A thought on gun control [Re: psyconaught]
    #21670890 - 05/12/15 06:57 PM (5 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
There is no direct causal relationship between prevalence of firearms and violent crime.




I don't know that that's true

http://www.vpc.org/press/1501gundeath.htm

Also, the United States as a whole has something 10,000 gun deaths a year, completely out of the ball park compared to other developed countries.  And of course we have the most relaxed gun laws.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: A thought on gun control [Re: clam_dude]
    #21671090 - 05/12/15 07:51 PM (5 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
There is no direct causal relationship between prevalence of firearms and violent crime.




I don't know that that's true

http://www.vpc.org/press/1501gundeath.htm

Also, the United States as a whole has something 10,000 gun deaths a year, completely out of the ball park compared to other developed countries.  And of course we have the most relaxed gun laws.



that data specifies nothing about violent crime.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: A thought on gun control [Re: psyconaught]
    #21671095 - 05/12/15 07:53 PM (5 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

And of course we have the most relaxed gun laws.



i don't know if this is necessarily true either, its possible we might be the most cavalier about it but there are other developed countries not far behind who do not have anywhere near the violent crime rate we do. Its a cultural issue.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: A thought on gun control [Re: psyconaught]
    #21671109 - 05/12/15 07:57 PM (5 years, 5 months ago)

http://sf.oxfordjournals.org/content/78/4/1461.short

Quote:

Results show a strong positive relationship between illegal gun availability and violent crime, gun crime, and juvenile gun crime. Little or no effect for the legitimate gun availability measure is observed




Quote:

A supplemental analysis also indicates no evidence of simultaneity between gun availability and violent crime.




Quote:

The strong and consistent effect of illegal rather than legal gun availability on violent crime has important policy implications, because it suggests that greater attention should be directed at devising ways for legitimate gun owners to better secure their weapons.




The problem is criminals. Not the weapons.


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Think for yourself, question authority


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Registered: 03/11/11
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Re: A thought on gun control [Re: psyconaught]
    #21671520 - 05/12/15 09:11 PM (5 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
If you look at some of the most violent cities in the country you'll notice they have extremely rigid gun control and bans. I live in a very republican state in a city with hundreds of thousands of people and almost every person i know has guns. Gun crime isn't an issue here, its just not. There is no direct causal relationship between prevalence of firearms and violent crime.




Causation does not equal correlation. I suspect even if what you claim is true about violent cities and strict gun control, the gun control was likely enacted because of the crime rate but was not a factor in causing it.

Quote:

psyconaught said:
http://sf.oxfordjournals.org/content/78/4/1461.short





Your paper is extremely limited in scope seeing as they only looked at South Carolina. A nearly identical study in West Virginia found a different result.

"Both the legal and illegal gun measures were positively and significantly related to each of the three offenses examined in the study: violent crimes, gun crimes and knife crimes."

"The violent crime model showed a significant impact on both legal and illegal guns on violent crime."


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: A thought on gun control [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21671614 - 05/12/15 09:26 PM (5 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Causation does not equal correlation.



thats my point.

Quote:

Your paper is extremely limited in scope seeing as they only looked at South Carolina. A nearly identical study in West Virginia found a different result.

"Both the legal and illegal gun measures were positively and significantly related to each of the three offenses examined in the study: violent crimes, gun crimes and knife crimes."

"The violent crime model showed a significant impact on both legal and illegal guns on violent crime."




once again proving that the issue is not simple nor as cut and dry as some would have you believe.


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: A thought on gun control [Re: psyconaught]
    #21671625 - 05/12/15 09:27 PM (5 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
once again proving that the issue is not simple nor as cut and dry as some would have you believe.




Certainly, but you said "The problem is criminals. Not the weapons." This seems to imply that increased availability of legal guns plays no role, and I don't think we have the data to make that conclusion yet.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: A thought on gun control [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21671726 - 05/12/15 09:44 PM (5 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
once again proving that the issue is not simple nor as cut and dry as some would have you believe.




Certainly, but you said "The problem is criminals. Not the weapons." This seems to imply that increased availability of legal guns plays no role, and I don't think we have the data to make that conclusion yet.



well due to the fact that firearms are not sentient machines the problem is currently, and always will be, the person who pulls the trigger.


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Registered: 03/11/11
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Re: A thought on gun control [Re: psyconaught]
    #21671804 - 05/12/15 09:59 PM (5 years, 5 months ago)

There can be more than one problem. As the data clearly show, the availibility of guns might also play a big role. They also might not, but with a multi-faceted problem like violent crime, I think we should consider all ways to fix it.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: A thought on gun control [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21671835 - 05/12/15 10:04 PM (5 years, 5 months ago)

but it still boils down to someone pulling the trigger. The person pulling the trigger is the problem, guns on their own do not commit crimes or make anyone commit a crime.


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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Re: A thought on gun control [Re: psyconaught]
    #21672329 - 05/12/15 11:54 PM (5 years, 5 months ago)

But their very presence allows for the crime to happen. You can't argue that they definitely don't have an impact, because they certainly might. Why not make some efforts to stop the problem from all sides? I'm not arguing for banning guns, but I don't see why it's a huge imposition to ask for things like universal background checks.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: A thought on gun control [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21672350 - 05/13/15 12:00 AM (5 years, 5 months ago)

i've not once opposed background checks. But i'm a heavy believer in personal responsibility, the human pulls the trigger, and the human is who gets punished, rightfully so. So i firmly believe thats where the focus should be. Its a cultural, mental health, and eduction issue, there are countless communities with a prevalence of guns and no gun/violent crime problems, this shows there is not a direct causal link between the two.


--------------------
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InvisibleBoldAsLove
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Registered: 03/11/11
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Re: A thought on gun control [Re: psyconaught]
    #21672461 - 05/13/15 12:24 AM (5 years, 5 months ago)

I'm not saying that the link doesn't exist. All I'm saying is that there is not one single factor that determines the rate of gun violence. Many things could be integral, and it likely varies some between different areas. My only point is that the problem won't be solved easily if we focus on one factor, but focusing on multiple factors can make it more likely that we see success.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.


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Offlineclam_dude
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Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 1,717
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Re: A thought on gun control [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21674764 - 05/13/15 04:08 PM (5 years, 5 months ago)

I agree with BoldAsLove that it doesn't necessarily make sense to completely ban guns (nor would this have a chance in hell of happening in the US). 

But let's just imagine a perfect society (regarding this issue) - to me, that would be one in which massive numbers of guns aren't produced in the first place.  Maybe some of you disagree.  But in this scenario, citizens and criminals alike wouldn't have guns for the most part.  And given that 10,000 people are killed by guns each year in the US, there would undoubtedly be many less deaths.

I know that some of you would argue with this being ideal based on the second amendment.  But I'm merely addressing the argument of "criminals will have guns".
We all want to get to a place where less people are getting shot (I'm assuming we can all agree on this).  And in my idea of a "perfect society," this is the case. 

Now I realize that my "perfect society" is unrealistic.  But this is because we have dug ourselves a whole by producing so many guns in the first place.

I understand that in the context we live, in which there are many criminals with guns, it may be unfair to stop people from owning them legally.  But this is because of the problem of having too many guns in the first place.  It seems to me that we should try to find some way of decreasing, over time, the number of guns floating around out there.

Or perhaps the best solution would be to limit the number of bullets produced and make them more expensive. 

But I think something needs to be done in the direction of less guns as opposed to more.  Can we agree that in the long run this will lead to less gun deaths? Even if you disagree with this as a solution based on the second amendment, you must agree that less guns = less deaths, no?

I'll save my thoughts on the second amendment for another post.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: A thought on gun control [Re: clam_dude]
    #21674809 - 05/13/15 04:24 PM (5 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

But I think something needs to be done in the direction of less guns as opposed to more.  Can we agree that in the long run this will lead to less gun deaths? Even if you disagree with this as a solution based on the second amendment, you must agree that less guns = less deaths, no?




if we got rid of cars the number of car related deaths would go down as well. The same applies to airplanes, baseball bats, pointy objects, bears, and every other thing on the planet.

I dont agree that we need to move towards limiting the amount of guns. I think we need to further education/safety, as well as making efforts to keep guns out of the hands of criminals. We don't demonize cars because someone takes the cops on a high speed chase. And we shouldn't be removing peoples rights because a minority abuse it.


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Think for yourself, question authority


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