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OfflineDatOudeLUL16
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Loph. identification help!
    #21664914 - 05/11/15 11:39 AM (9 years, 9 days ago)

So I've added some more "peyote" to my collection however just wanna confirm that these are indeed true williamsii.

I'm about 95% sure they are, especially the two micro clusters; it's the two older individual buttons that I'm more unsure of- they're both a much paler yellow green shade than my other specimens,  and almost look and even feel almost waxy or as if made of marzipan. Additionally they're alot shallower too (not as 'tall' or flatter if you will, perhaps less water weight?).

I've included the .50 euro cent coin for size reference,  any speculation on age?


TIA

Edited by DatOudeLUL16 (05/11/15 11:54 AM)

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InvisiblecowsRmeat
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Re: Loph. identification help! [Re: DatOudeLUL16]
    #21664995 - 05/11/15 11:57 AM (9 years, 9 days ago)

They look legit to me... But take that info with a grain of salt, as I am in no way an expert cacti identifier.


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'Where do you want to go?' was his response.
'I don't know', Alice answered.
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InvisibleMostly_HarmlessM
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Re: Loph. identification help! [Re: cowsRmeat]
    #21665058 - 05/11/15 12:11 PM (9 years, 9 days ago)

My money would be on L. koehresii for the top right and maybe the middle one too. Flowers will tell for sure, which don't look too far away.

Ages are hard to guess at especially with the caespitosa as they are usually propagated by cuttings.


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InvisiblecowsRmeat
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Re: Loph. identification help! [Re: Mostly_Harmless]
    #21665194 - 05/11/15 12:39 PM (9 years, 9 days ago)

I hadn't realized koehresii was a different species. I thought it was just a variety of williamsii....  :facepalm3:


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One day Alice came to a fork in the road and saw a Cheshire cat in a tree.
'Which road do I take?' she asked.
'Where do you want to go?' was his response.
'I don't know', Alice answered.
'Then', said the cat, 'it doesn't matter.'




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OfflineLemnaminor
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Re: Loph. identification help! [Re: cowsRmeat]
    #21665527 - 05/11/15 02:12 PM (9 years, 9 days ago)

Well, it's actually considered to be a var. But a Diffusa Var, not a Williamsi.


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OfflineLSoares
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Re: Loph. identification help! [Re: Lemnaminor]
    #21665622 - 05/11/15 02:39 PM (9 years, 9 days ago)

As M_H said, top right does not seem to be L. williamsii.


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OfflineWhen
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Re: Loph. identification help! [Re: LSoares]
    #21665665 - 05/11/15 02:49 PM (9 years, 9 days ago)

I'll put my money on Diffusa at the right, and I'll guess they're around 4 years old.


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OfflineDatOudeLUL16
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Re: Loph. identification help! [Re: When]
    #21665880 - 05/11/15 03:39 PM (9 years, 9 days ago)

Yeah after doing some google research I can see why many would arrive at such a conclusion about that top-right specimen. However after looking at this extensive identification guide, there was one picture of a williamsii that looked exceptionally similar to the top right. Plus most people seem to say they're a lot more rounded and thus taller, with not as much rib depression; where as this button is almost pancake flat, with pretty deep rib depressions. It does look like it would be a tall, more rounded specimen from that view point, but I think if you guys could appreciate just how flat it is, you would second guess it.

look here:

Loph Identification guide

The second, third and fourth pictures down definitely look quite similar I'd say. As well as some of the fricii pictures.

ETA: yeah after second glance, I would say it definitely resembles those three williamsii specimens a hell of a lot more than any of the examples given for koehresii

Also oddly enough, while diffusae are in general of a notably lighter hue, koehresii are said to be exceptionally darker (which mine certainly isn't).



Also, they did all come from the same shop, sold as peyote in the same display section. I know that's no guarantee of anything, but I figure it at least increases the likelihood that if all legit, if some are for legit (or legit is not that correct term, but true williamsii is what I mean...

The clusters are almost certainly caespitosas no? From what I could dig up, their the only loph. species (or even var. for that matter) known to cluster up or produce pups like that no?

Edited by DatOudeLUL16 (05/11/15 06:14 PM)

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OfflineDatOudeLUL16
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Re: Loph. identification help! [Re: When]
    #21666592 - 05/11/15 06:11 PM (9 years, 9 days ago)

Actually after looking further, I'm thinking it could be a williamsii variegata, hence the slightly paler coloration (maybe). Any thoughts on this?

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InvisibleMostly_HarmlessM
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Re: Loph. identification help! [Re: DatOudeLUL16]
    #21667882 - 05/11/15 11:17 PM (9 years, 9 days ago)

I still suspect koehresii, perhaps diffusa. :smile: due to the rib definition, colour of the skin, and the wool.
Growing conditions can affect how squat they are and colour.
A slight variation in skin colour wouldn't imply variegation, there can be natural variation within a species.


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OfflineDatOudeLUL16
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Re: Loph. identification help! [Re: Mostly_Harmless]
    #21668457 - 05/12/15 03:07 AM (9 years, 9 days ago)

After doing a simple google image search, I realized you're definitely right in that it's not a variegata because those are actually fucking yellow. But I did some more google for lophophora identification guides in addition with google images and I'm thinking williamssi for sure, because even if you look at these two comparative profiles, I don't see you how you can objectively think any of the plants in the kohresii profile, resemble mine more than the ones from the williamsii profile. Maybe it's just wishful thinking, but also lastly the fact that that the other loph species are in fact rarer, leads me to believe it is williamsii

koehresii

williamsii

Edited by DatOudeLUL16 (05/12/15 03:08 AM)

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Offlineintelligentlife
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Re: Loph. identification help! [Re: DatOudeLUL16]
    #21668758 - 05/12/15 07:15 AM (9 years, 8 days ago)

Two L. Decipiens(?) at right corner, then two other lophophora caespitosa.

They might be some L. Diffusa family anyway imo.

L. Decipiens label cactus around here have got sometimes very much williamsii like ribs and color of skin is more like williamsii than diffusa.


Accurate pics from flowers would tell much.


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Edited by intelligentlife (05/12/15 07:20 AM)

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OfflineDatOudeLUL16
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Re: Loph. identification help! [Re: intelligentlife]
    #21668813 - 05/12/15 07:45 AM (9 years, 8 days ago)

Decepiens! Ding-ding, I think we may have a winner there, that definitely matches the best of any variety/subspecies/strain suggested thus far, (other than the standard williamsii pics, but I suppose it's a variety/subspecies/strain of williamsii no?

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Offlineintelligentlife
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Re: Loph. identification help! [Re: DatOudeLUL16]
    #21671623 - 05/12/15 07:27 PM (9 years, 8 days ago)

Afaik it's not williamsii either.

Some use williamsii name at label very easy, some mean there are only one true williamsii and rest of them are from diffusa.

I've even seen old guy growing cacti label some fricii as "l. williamsii v. fricii -location-"

But.. I would rule out those from williamsii family so far.


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OfflineDatOudeLUL16
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Re: Loph. identification help! [Re: intelligentlife]
    #21672885 - 05/13/15 12:24 AM (9 years, 8 days ago)

Hmmm interesting, I finally find a halfway decent scientific article on the varied alkaloid content of lophophora varieties/subspecies:

loph alkaloid makeup

According to this study, they considered fricii indeed a separate species, and decepiens as a var. or strain of williamsii. This actually makes sense if you compare the alkaloidal makeup of each to the standard williamsii. The decepiens is still high in mescaline (like most williamsiis) and the fricii showed high pellotine  content like most diffusa.

Nonetheless, I don't dispute they could in the end constitute a separate species, but at least on the spectrum of alkaloidal composition, the decepiens errs on the side of williamsii.

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