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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: rxb] * 1
    #21658723 - 05/09/15 07:39 PM (9 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

rxb said:
thats why i say if we restrict ONLY illuding to a specific person.




The problem I have is this.  The ability to limit specific mentions of candidates is the ability to limit criticism of those in power.  If I had to name the single most important and fundamental right of any republic, it is the right to criticize those in power.

Once we erode that right, we're risking a slippery slope into tyranny. 

I think it's far better to help and teach the public to think critically about political speech.  It may be less effective, and it may take longer, but ultimately, it is the only way to keep a republic strong.


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
    #21658743 - 05/09/15 07:47 PM (9 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

rxb said:
thats why i say if we restrict ONLY illuding to a specific person.




The problem I have is this.  The ability to limit specific mentions of candidates is the ability to limit criticism of those in power.  If I had to name the single most important and fundamental right of any republic, it is the right to criticize those in power.

Once we erode that right, we're risking a slippery slope into tyranny. 

I think it's far better to help and teach the public to think critically about political speech.  It may be less effective, and it may take longer, but ultimately, it is the only way to keep a republic strong.




We need an upgrade/rewrite of our Constitution.  Our constitution is simply not up to the task of a nation where corporations are bigger, more powerful and more wealthy than many of our states.  The FF's simply did not see this as possible and the constitution has an enormous blind spot in this area.  I find it comical that some say they fear our Government is taking over business when, in fact, we have had a business takeover of our government going on steadily since the end of WW2.

We have separation of church and state, we now need separation of corporation and state.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: BoldAsLove]
    #21658757 - 05/09/15 07:50 PM (9 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
why is the next program different than an ad within the program? It seems like an arbitrary distinction you're making up on the spot. If i sit though and watch an ad in the middle of a show i am actively seeking it in the same exact way that I would be actively seeking the next show if i remain seated and watch it.



I'm not sure whether you're reading the  current definition:
Quote:

Political statements are subject to individual spending limits, unless they are part of a publication or program that a majority of people who are viewing them desire to watch, provided a 3rd party isn’t paying to insert or dictate content.



First of all, a majority of people don't want to watch political ads, but more importantly, 3rd parties pay to insert the advertising.

Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
What's the difference between an advertisement and the next program? Isn't that what this definition is supposed to do, define what is and isn't an advertisement?



See explanation to psyconaught.


Quote:

BoldAsLove said:
I have no idea how many people actually watch television ads, but I can say with confidence that if they choose to watch the ad, that it stands to reason that they had some desire to do so. I can't possibly know what a person is desiring at any given moment, but based on their actions, a person who watches an ad seems to express a desire to watch it. Why is that not a valid interpretation of that person's actions?



Do you have the option to skip ads where you live?  I certainly don't.  If I don't want to miss my programming when the ad is over, I have to keep the ad on.


--------------------
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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
    #21658856 - 05/09/15 08:21 PM (9 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Ultimately, fal's test comes down to "I know it when I see it."



The test always comes down to "read the existing test and quit making up your own.  If you find a flaw, let's fix it and try again.  That's what happened in response to your last response to me.  All of your complaints have been fixed, except the breadth question, because spending limits should apply to the different kinds of political speech.  You've made the claim that "depending on your limit, it would be possible to convict any reasonably politically active person of reaching that limit" but you've only been able to show that true if the limit is below $20.

The test keeps getting better, largely thanks to you, and if you still see an issue with it, feel free to share.  Again, your last issues were resolved, so as far as I know, the test is good now.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21658888 - 05/09/15 08:31 PM (9 years, 10 days ago)

Has your definition of "third party" changed?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
    #21658926 - 05/09/15 08:39 PM (9 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Has your definition of "third party" changed?



Good point - I added 3rd party to the definition.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #21658939 - 05/09/15 08:43 PM (9 years, 10 days ago)

So a holder of one share or of a job in the company owning the publication can spend unlimited money on political content.


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OfflinerxbS
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
    #21658956 - 05/09/15 08:48 PM (9 years, 10 days ago)

i think he addressed this, by saying that no, the company could as directed by its heirachy spend money how it wanted.

so the ceo of cbs would have more voice than a single shareholder.

but if a 51%r said jump... they'd be free to broadcast


--------------------
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[quote]Enlil said:
I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: rxb]
    #21658962 - 05/09/15 08:50 PM (9 years, 10 days ago)

If that one shareholder paid to have the content inserted,  he'd have plenty of say.

Of  course all content is paid for by third parties who have they power to control.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
    #21658970 - 05/09/15 08:52 PM (9 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
So a holder of one share or of a job in the company owning the publication can spend unlimited money on political content.



Only if they're spending money on behalf of the publication.
Quote:

Enlil said:
If that one shareholder paid to have the content inserted,  he'd have plenty of say.



Then he's not acting on behalf of the publication, but as a 3rd party.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflinerxbS
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
    #21658972 - 05/09/15 08:53 PM (9 years, 10 days ago)

i think you are missing the point.

not even the 51% shareholder could use HIS money to insert it.

the STATION can do what it wants with ITS money.

i suppose he could GIFT the station money with "no ties"


--------------------
->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <-

. i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications)

[quote]Enlil said:
I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]

Edited by rxb (05/09/15 08:54 PM)

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #21658990 - 05/09/15 08:57 PM (9 years, 10 days ago)

Your test doesn't differentiate whether the third party is acting as a third party or not.


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
    #21658996 - 05/09/15 08:59 PM (9 years, 10 days ago)

The fundamental question is, should a wealthy individual have more ability to influence the political process than a poor person? 

I think that is a great question and gets to the root of this issue.  I don't think representative democracy functions as effectively as it could when a tiny group of very  wealthy people have more influence on politicians than millions and millions of average Americans.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
    #21659001 - 05/09/15 09:00 PM (9 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Your test doesn't differentiate whether the third party is acting as a third party or not.



I thought it did, but maybe you can do a better job with a rewrite?  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #21659002 - 05/09/15 09:01 PM (9 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
The fundamental question is, should a wealthy individual have more ability to influence the political process than a poor person? 

I think that is a great question and gets to the root of this issue.  I don't think representative democracy functions as effectively as it could when a tiny group of very  wealthy people have more influence on politicians than millions and millions of average Americans.



Precisely.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21659004 - 05/09/15 09:01 PM (9 years, 10 days ago)

The problem is that all content is paid for and influenced by third parties.


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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
    #21659015 - 05/09/15 09:03 PM (9 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
The problem is that all content is paid for and influenced by third parties.



I'm ok with that so long as it's not political content.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #21659017 - 05/09/15 09:03 PM (9 years, 10 days ago)

Whether they should or should not,  the wealthy have always had more political sway than the poor.  That's been true since the beginning of civilization.


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
    #21659027 - 05/09/15 09:06 PM (9 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Whether they should or should not,  the wealthy have always had more political sway than the poor.  That's been true since the beginning of civilization.




But what is happening now is on a much bigger scale.  The giant financial interests on the planet have forced both parties to pretty much conform on a lot of the major issues meaning they have taken choice out of the system. 

The differences between the two parties, right now, is very, very small.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #21659030 - 05/09/15 09:06 PM (9 years, 10 days ago)

So,  it's effectively a ban on all political commentary.


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