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OfflineEllis Dee
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Satan's family in Islamic context
    #21648883 - 05/07/15 11:52 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

It is well known that the Islamic religion is based on the Sabbean pre-Islamic pantheon, Allah being the chief diety of the Sabbean pantheon the same way Jupiter is chief God of the Romans. So in beginning deeper studies into comparitive religion I've discovered references to Iblis' (the Islamic devil's) family. Apparently Islamic scholars have info on Satan's so called family. I'm requesting help and assistance from you fellow shroomerites into gaining details of this Satanic family tree from English language sources. I have searched and failed to find the sort of detailed information which I have sought.

I'm trying to more fully determine not just the source of the Islamic religion but also the source of what pantheon they chose to demonize and call their devils (jinns). After gaining information on Iblis' family I will compare them and their characteristics to the local gods of other people's in the Arabian and near eastern area in order to determine the actual mythological identities of the Islamic devils, prior to their demonization. The main purpose of my research is to knock the foundations from the founding of Islam, so that Muslims infested with Islamic beliefs may be more likely to abandon their religion and find reason. Thank you for your assistance.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Offlinethebitterbuffalo26
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Re: Satan's family in Islamic context [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #21649033 - 05/07/15 12:33 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Well whoever it is apparently Americans descended from them


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OfflinePhunguy
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Re: Satan's family in Islamic context [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #21649037 - 05/07/15 12:35 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Very interesting, where did you source your info?


--------------------
I am on a drug. It's called Charlie Sheen. It's not available. If you try it once, you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body.
- Charlie Sheen


:stoned:Word to the wise: Don't get too bogged down wanting to know why stuff is done the way it's done or coming up with your own clever modifications or methods. Instead, do what is known to work and figure out why later!!


I have a dream. . . too one day grow a shroom the size of a man! Wanna help?:mushroom2:

Disclaimer: all post are fake an fictitious


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OfflineColours
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Re: Satan's family in Islamic context [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #21649152 - 05/07/15 01:09 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I'm trying to more fully determine not just the source of the Islamic religion but also the source of what pantheon they chose to demonize and call their devils (jinns).




I don't know an exact answer, but I'd say look towards Africa, and maybe more specifically Kemet (Ancient Egypt).

Ancient Egypt is considered the birth place of religion and writing systems, so I think that's a logical place to look, eventually.

The Greeks, Romans and even modern places like United States have been heavily influenced by the Egyptians. Super basic example, just look at the 1 dollar bill.

I don't see why Islam wouldn't take the same steps and choose a strategy proven successful, such as creating religious ideologies based on fear and taking advantage of someones ignorance.

I'd be surprised if Kemet/Egypt didn't influence Islam, so if you find out the answer and it's not Egpyt, share your research. I'd be interested to see what you found.


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OfflinePhunguy
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Re: Satan's family in Islamic context [Re: Colours]
    #21649505 - 05/07/15 02:51 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

I thought Sumerians where the founders of first writing an religion.


--------------------
I am on a drug. It's called Charlie Sheen. It's not available. If you try it once, you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body.
- Charlie Sheen


:stoned:Word to the wise: Don't get too bogged down wanting to know why stuff is done the way it's done or coming up with your own clever modifications or methods. Instead, do what is known to work and figure out why later!!


I have a dream. . . too one day grow a shroom the size of a man! Wanna help?:mushroom2:

Disclaimer: all post are fake an fictitious


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OfflinePhunguy
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Re: Satan's family in Islamic context [Re: Phunguy]
    #21649511 - 05/07/15 02:54 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

an you could argue we are more influenced by the Greeks an Romans, look at are government an a bald eagle is are country's bird, look up what bird the Romans carried round that were made of gold.


--------------------
I am on a drug. It's called Charlie Sheen. It's not available. If you try it once, you will die. Your face will melt off and your children will weep over your exploded body.
- Charlie Sheen


:stoned:Word to the wise: Don't get too bogged down wanting to know why stuff is done the way it's done or coming up with your own clever modifications or methods. Instead, do what is known to work and figure out why later!!


I have a dream. . . too one day grow a shroom the size of a man! Wanna help?:mushroom2:

Disclaimer: all post are fake an fictitious


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OfflineColours
Registered: 01/20/13
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Re: Satan's family in Islamic context [Re: Phunguy]
    #21650215 - 05/07/15 06:43 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Phunguy said:
I thought Sumerians where the founders of first writing an religion.




Well, to be honest, it's actually all speculation because the oldest Sumerian scripts date back to like 3200 BC, and their have been Egyptian tablets with hieroglyphs found by German archeologists that carbon date back to 3300-3200 BC, so it's too close to see who really started the first language system.

There's debates that Egypt goes back thousands of years further than we believe. One argument is the evidence of water erosion on the Sphinx, which is much older than the pyramids. Going back around 12,000 years, climate records show that Egpyt/Kemet was a rain forest, which could cause that type of erosion to a giant, perfect limestone sculpture. This would predate what we know about Sumerians.

Even if Sumerians were the very first, they have much less to show for it compared to the Egyptians. Astrological studies, mathematics, written & spoken language, religion, architecture, the list goes on and on how Egypt displays a dominance of the ancient world.

Quote:

Phunguy said:
an you could argue we are more influenced by the Greeks an Romans, look at are government an a bald eagle is are country's bird, look up what bird the Romans carried round that were made of gold.




The symbolism of the bird goes back further than Greece and Romans. And that is why I mentioned Egypt influencing Greece, Romans. Hell, even the Nazis. It's all about symbolism with the ancient Egpytians. They wrote with Hieroglyphs.

Goddess Maat


God Horus


Hitler & Nazis using bird symbolism


Edited by Colours (05/07/15 06:47 PM)


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Offlinediamonddogg
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Re: Satan's family in Islamic context [Re: Colours]
    #21659909 - 05/10/15 02:37 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

I think you are a bit confused OP. In the Arabic language "Allah" means God, the same God in christianity and judaism. Arabic christians and jews use the same name "Allah" for God.
I dont think you will be able to 'knock the foundations of islam' as you say, anymore than you can christianity or judaism. Each of these religions has some truth in it, hence why it carried on thousands of years and are still here today.

As for satan in islam, he is the first "jinn", a species created from fire, he is said to be the first to rebel against God and humankind, he is cursed in islam and damned to eternity


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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: Satan's family in Islamic context [Re: diamonddogg]
    #21660130 - 05/10/15 05:41 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

diamonddogg said:
I think you are a bit confused OP. In the Arabic language "Allah" means God, the same God in christianity and judaism. Arabic christians and jews use the same name "Allah" for God.
I dont think you will be able to 'knock the foundations of islam' as you say, anymore than you can christianity or judaism. Each of these religions has some truth in it, hence why it carried on thousands of years and are still here today.

As for satan in islam, he is the first "jinn", a species created from fire, he is said to be the first to rebel against God and humankind, he is cursed in islam and damned to eternity




:thumbup:


Interesting. This sounds extremely similar to the Gnostic creation story, where you have the Demiurge Yaldabaoth, leader of the archons, who is also associated with fire. "And look, from the cloud there appeared an [angel] whose face flashed with fire and whose appearance was defiled with blood" - Gospel of Judas

The problem with religion isn't religion. All traditions are like a map pointing the way to the same truth. The problem with religion is people, what they have done with it and how they used it for material gain and the control of others. Trying to convince people to change their beliefs is unlikely to do any good. All we can try and do is liberate ourselves.


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Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


Edited by PocketLady (05/10/15 05:42 AM)


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Satan's family in Islamic context [Re: diamonddogg]
    #21660633 - 05/10/15 10:08 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

diamonddogg said:
I think you are a bit confused OP. In the Arabic language "Allah" means God, the same God in Christianity and judaism. Arabic Christians and Jews use the same name "Allah" for God.
I dont think you will be able to 'knock the foundations of islam' as you say, anymore than you can Christianity or judaism. Each of these religions has some truth in it, hence why it carried on thousands of years and are still here today.

As for satan in islam, he is the first "jinn", a species created from fire, he is said to be the first to rebel against God and humankind, he is cursed in islam and damned to eternity



I know that very well, its the official Islamic story which of course is historically inaccurate. Allah has become the name of God in Arabic but it wasn't always so, and is different than the Gods of Christianity and Judaism as well. I'll briefly explain.

Allah is a moon God of the Sabbean pantheon, the chief deity of the Sabbeans was Allah. When Muhammad needed political support from the powerful Sabbeans he adopted their chief deity Allah in order to win their favor. It was merely one of 360 idols in the Ka'aba in Mecca, albeit the most important one. The moon God Allah married the Sun goddess and they begat 3 daughters. There was a reference to Allah's children in the original Koran which you can look into as its the famous "Satanic verses" controversy in which mainstream Muslims actually take the position that Satan tricked Muhammad into putting it in there. The crescent moon is everywhere in Islam. Ramadan begins and ends with the crescent moon. There is one famous idol dug up at the Hazor dig in Palestine that shows Allah sitting on his throne with the crescent moon on his chest.

Now the Jewish god is a different thing altogether. Abraham came from Ur of the Chaldese according to Genesis, and brought with him the Sumerian pantheon and their creation myths. The early Hebrews appear from all the evidence to have been polytheistic but eventually adopted their primary Gods. The God of Moses was Ehya Asher Ehya which is now translated I am that I am, but is correctly translated Ehya or EA which is the sumerian God Enki, the god for whom the EArth is called incidentally as well. Eventually the Hebrews begin following the Canaanite gods El (El is the Canaanite name for Enlil the brother of Ea/Enki) and his son who is called Hadad and Yahweh, a son of El who is married to Ashorah. They then go into captivity in Babylon where the prophets like Jeremiah declare that Nebakanezer is a faithful servant of the Lord god (and Nebakanezer's god is Marduk of course). So the God of Jeremiah, Daniel, Isiah and so forth is Marduk, the one true god and not coincidentally the chief god of the Babylonian version of the pantheon. Cyrus the great is also called a faithful servant of the Lord btw, and he is also not even a Hebrew, lol.

You should begin noticing a theme of the chief god of pantheons being declared the one god. We can trace over time the evolution of thought and the evolution of worship and the monotheists can pretend there has only ever been one god, but it is clearly not the case and is easily proven false.

The Christian God is a different deity as well. Much of the back story is based on the Hebrew stories which are bastardized versions of much older Sumerian stories. But the Christian religion is largely a mixture of near eastern and egyptian myths, rolled up in to one character. How and why this was done is information easily available from any number of sources most especially the sun god cults and Mithra-ism, which I don't have the time to go over right now anyway.

They all pretend decent from Abraham, claim to serve the one true god, but they do not. The historical evidence shows the deities worshiped over time changes and they all get rolled into the idea one god as monotheism becomes popular, yet they are all based on very different deities.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Edited by Ellis Dee (05/10/15 10:45 AM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Satan's family in Islamic context [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #21660685 - 05/10/15 10:28 AM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Truly fascinating, Ellis.  :thumbup:


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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