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InvisiblePlantSeeker
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Re: Salvia Divinorum Growers Unite! [Re: Muhfreedoms]
    #21649332 - 05/07/15 02:00 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

For the browning on the leaf tips. I've heard humidity, and chemicals in tap water (chlorine). Brown was affecting most leaves, when I began, then after I left the water sitting out, it went away. For the past few weeks, I've been out working, and only made time to leave the water out for 2hrs, and then water, before leaving home.

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OfflineWhen
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Re: Salvia Divinorum Growers Unite! [Re: PlantSeeker]
    #21649437 - 05/07/15 02:30 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

cowsRmeat said:

I myself have good success cloning sallies, but I want to pick the brains of some of you who also successfully and regularly clone yous. How long do you guys usually make your cuttings (both in a measure of length and measure of nodes)?  I've been normally doing 4-5 inch pieces that are 3-4 nodes apiece. I'm thinking the next batch I do I might sacrifice number of cuttings for size of cuttings and go a bit longer. Seems like once my medium-small cuttings get rooted and are planted, they stall for a short while before taking off. I'm curious if I started with longer cuttings to begin with, if that initial stallout after planting will be reduced and in the end, I would end up with more plant mass quicker- even though for larger cuttings  I would have less of them.    Opinions?




I personally have excellent results with larger cuttings, + 6 inches. I'll trim off the pair of bottom most leaves above the cut for a clear node and immediately submerge in a glass of room temp filtered water. After a few weeks when the roots are plenty they are planted in a soil mix. I find they are very light sensitive and will wilt under normal light, so shade must be given in order to firm up. After a couple days they take off. I've found I don't really need an open node because roots form out the bottom of the cut and along the submerged stem. My cuttings are so large there is always a node or two submerged. It seems with a longer cutting, more rooting sites develop which may lessen the lag from planting in soil. I haven't had any issues with rot with the stems sitting in water for weeks, I top up the water levels along the way.


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OfflineWhen
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Re: Salvia Divinorum Growers Unite! [Re: Muhfreedoms]
    #21649498 - 05/07/15 02:48 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Muhfreedoms said:
thanks guys :laugh: have you got any advice on the leafs turning brown or do you think my humidity theory is correct?




That brown spotting is IMO nothing to worry about, as it is quite common among SD.
And yep, apparently caused by dryish conditions. Probably from old growth conditions as new growth is nice n green.


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Re: Salvia Divinorum Growers Unite! [Re: When] * 1
    #21649691 - 05/07/15 03:59 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

The leaves on mamas clones are getting...big !



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InvisiblecowsRmeat
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Re: Salvia Divinorum Growers Unite! [Re: When]
    #21650383 - 05/07/15 07:26 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

When said: I've found I don't really need an open node because roots form out the bottom of the cut and along the submerged stem.




I've noticed this as well. Here's some of my recent clones throwing out roots. You can see the little cloner-ma-jig I threw together out of a plastic Folger's can and lid, along with a fish tank bubbler. Probably overkill, but it does the job.






Quote:

When said:
It seems with a longer cutting, more rooting sites develop which may lessen the lag from planting in soil.




This is what I was beginning to suspect myself. I think next go round I will try ~6inch cuttings.


--------------------
One day Alice came to a fork in the road and saw a Cheshire cat in a tree.
'Which road do I take?' she asked.
'Where do you want to go?' was his response.
'I don't know', Alice answered.
'Then', said the cat, 'it doesn't matter.'




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Re: Salvia Divinorum Growers Unite! [Re: cowsRmeat]
    #21650612 - 05/07/15 08:20 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Nice job with the bubbler rooter, the roots look great. I'm old school, cut with clean sharpened knife and drop and drop em in a glass of filtered water. Rarely I'll get one that turns black, but mostly success.
I see with the glass of water tek, air bubbles form up and down the submerged stems. I think that contributes to the plants wilting for a few days with the air bubbles possibly blocking water contact with stem tissue. So I'll stir the stems after 12-24 hrs. But of course with a bubbler and constant water movement you wouldn't have this issue. :smile:


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OfflineOggy
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Re: Salvia Divinorum Growers Unite! [Re: When]
    #21650686 - 05/07/15 08:39 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

All of these super happy plants! I hope mine will be as thick and bushy like every other plant I see.

Also, I found my hydrometer the same freaking day I received a humidity monitor. The humidity and temperatures that my plants sit in hover at around 30-40%. Temperatures stand around 60 and 70, which was surprising to me. I thought it would be colder.


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InvisiblecowsRmeat
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Re: Salvia Divinorum Growers Unite! [Re: Oggy]
    #21650897 - 05/07/15 09:40 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

I posted my little cloner earlier, but here are two pics that are 2 days apart showing how fast the sally roots can grow.

Apr20:



Apr22:





And here are the cuttings and the cloner, all closed up, going about it's day:


--------------------
One day Alice came to a fork in the road and saw a Cheshire cat in a tree.
'Which road do I take?' she asked.
'Where do you want to go?' was his response.
'I don't know', Alice answered.
'Then', said the cat, 'it doesn't matter.'




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OfflineOggy
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Re: Salvia Divinorum Growers Unite! [Re: cowsRmeat]
    #21650962 - 05/07/15 09:55 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Does your cloner circulate the water? That's rather impressive root growth for two days! My cuttings weren't anywhere close to that after weeks of growth in water that was changed every 24 hours.

I want to use an air stone in a water container to move the water around and oxygenate at the same time. If my mother plant ever recovers I'll experiment with that some day.


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InvisiblecowsRmeat
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Re: Salvia Divinorum Growers Unite! [Re: Oggy]
    #21650998 - 05/07/15 10:00 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

I never change out the water in it. I just top it off as needed, which honestly is about once per rooting cycle since the whole thing is pretty much sealed.

I also have taken to adding the smallest bit of MG ferts (I'm too lazy/cheap to buy better ferts) into the water when the roots reach ~1 inch long to give it a little something to eat until I plant it. In an effort to reduce the stall out time after planting, I have been trying to let roots reach ~2inches before planting.


--------------------
One day Alice came to a fork in the road and saw a Cheshire cat in a tree.
'Which road do I take?' she asked.
'Where do you want to go?' was his response.
'I don't know', Alice answered.
'Then', said the cat, 'it doesn't matter.'




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OfflineOggy
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Re: Salvia Divinorum Growers Unite! [Re: cowsRmeat]
    #21651057 - 05/07/15 10:12 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

I want to experiment with air stones during the cutting phase. I have the idea that if the plant roots receive oxygen, provided by the air stone and circulated through the water by the stone displacing the water, then the risk of root rot wouldn't be as high and promote root growth because of the extra oxygen.

I think it would be similar to a hydroponic grow in a mature plant. But, I don't know. Still something I want to experiment with once I can take two cuttings at the same time.


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InvisiblecowsRmeat
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Re: Salvia Divinorum Growers Unite! [Re: Oggy]
    #21651257 - 05/07/15 10:58 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Oggy said: I have the idea that if the plant roots receive oxygen, provided by the air stone and circulated through the water by the stone displacing the water, then the risk of root rot wouldn't be as high and promote root growth because of the extra oxygen.




That's exactly why I started using the airstone! I had a couple rot out before rooting when using just water, but haven't lost a single one after adding the bubbler. I would reccommend trying it to anybody having trouble with doing cuttings (of any kind of plant, really).


--------------------
One day Alice came to a fork in the road and saw a Cheshire cat in a tree.
'Which road do I take?' she asked.
'Where do you want to go?' was his response.
'I don't know', Alice answered.
'Then', said the cat, 'it doesn't matter.'




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InvisiblecowsRmeat
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Re: Salvia Divinorum Growers Unite! [Re: PlantSeeker]
    #21651293 - 05/07/15 11:11 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

PlantSeeker said:
For the browning on the leaf tips. I've heard humidity, and chemicals in tap water (chlorine). Brown was affecting most leaves, when I began, then after I left the water sitting out, it went away. For the past few weeks, I've been out working, and only made time to leave the water out for 2hrs, and then water, before leaving home.




Wow! You know, for some dumb reason, I've never thought about salvia being sensitive to chlorine! I have a number of plants I have labelled as "rainwater only" plants but for some reason never put any of my sallies on a strictly rainwater diet.


Seems expecially dumb of me considering I have a 55 gallon rainwater collection barrel right out in the back yard...



Starting now, at least some of my sallies are going rainwater only just to compare growth.


--------------------
One day Alice came to a fork in the road and saw a Cheshire cat in a tree.
'Which road do I take?' she asked.
'Where do you want to go?' was his response.
'I don't know', Alice answered.
'Then', said the cat, 'it doesn't matter.'




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OfflineOggy
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Re: Salvia Divinorum Growers Unite! [Re: cowsRmeat]
    #21651304 - 05/07/15 11:14 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

I've only taken 4 cuttings. I've never had any of them rot, though.

My cutting phase ritual is simple and probably not very good.
I kept my cuttings in a small water bottle and in a freezer bag to act as a humidity chamber.
I'd swap the water out every 24 hours, shake the hell out of the bottle to enrich it with oxygen and put the cutting back in.

The cuttings I've taken have never been very large or thick stemmed, though. This was the largest cutting I've ever taken. The stem is so much thicker than the other 3. Easily twice the size of the other 3.


I stuck them into a soil mix 3 weeks after their roots began appearing. Each cutting probably had, at the longest, nearly an inch long root. They weren't very large at all.
This is one thing I regret with these cuttings, not allowing their roots time to grow or produce a larger volume of roots. If they had more roots,
I am sure they would grow at insane rates. They are so willing to put out roots, I kind of think they would be similar to tomatoes when it comes to growth versus amount of roots.


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InvisiblecowsRmeat
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Re: Salvia Divinorum Growers Unite! [Re: Oggy]
    #21651321 - 05/07/15 11:19 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Seems like the thicker stems are quicker to produce more roots IME.
The cuttings pictured above in my cloner are probably the thickest ones I have ever had the opportunity to try (they were nicely mature stems where the squared stems started to develop that extra "fringe" on the corners of the square). They seemed to grow their roots at a quicker pace than the smaller diameter cuttings.


--------------------
One day Alice came to a fork in the road and saw a Cheshire cat in a tree.
'Which road do I take?' she asked.
'Where do you want to go?' was his response.
'I don't know', Alice answered.
'Then', said the cat, 'it doesn't matter.'




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InvisiblePlantSeeker
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Re: Salvia Divinorum Growers Unite! [Re: cowsRmeat]
    #21651606 - 05/08/15 12:53 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, please try it, and you will definitely notice a difference. A master grower, who I first received my plants from explained the chlorine as being the major problem of the browning on the leaves. He said that the browning gets to the edges of the leaves, as the plant is pushing the toxin (chlorine) out of its leaves. They love rain water =)

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Re: Salvia Divinorum Growers Unite! [Re: cowsRmeat]
    #21652513 - 05/08/15 09:13 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

cowsRmeat said:

I also have taken to adding the smallest bit of MG ferts (I'm too lazy/cheap to buy better ferts) into the water when the roots reach ~1 inch long to give it a little something to eat until I plant it.




Good advice, I have had positive results with a drop of liquid fert added to water.

Quote:

cowsRmeat said:
Quote:

PlantSeeker said:
For the browning on the leaf tips. I've heard humidity, and chemicals in tap water (chlorine). Brown was affecting most leaves, when I began, then after I left the water sitting out, it went away. For the past few weeks, I've been out working, and only made time to leave the water out for 2hrs, and then water, before leaving home.




Starting now, at least some of my sallies are going rainwater only just to compare growth.




Another good tip, tap water should always be allowed to sit out for 24+ hours preferably in a wide mouth container.

Awesome cows! That water will be sweet for your sallies, wishin I had some !


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OfflineOggy
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Re: Salvia Divinorum Growers Unite! [Re: When]
    #21658701 - 05/09/15 07:30 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

My ladies are still dropping their old leaves. I don't understand it. The old leaves seem healthy, patchy in places with brown. They were nice and green, no brown while in their humidity tents during the cutting phase.
Now all of a sudden they're dropping leaves like crazy. Fortunately, there is some new growth. Not much, but some. I think the growth is starting to speed up.

Also, I haven't watered them yet. It's been almost a month since they were watered. The mother plant is starting to droop on her older leaves, even though the soil is still slightly moist deeper down.

Here are some pictures a week apart.

7 days ago:

10 minutes ago:



Notice the leaves missing from the cuttings. :frown:
They went from healthy looking to sad looking.

They've gone 3 weeks without a good watering. I've misted them a few times a day to get a grasp of the humidity, and it seems that the humidity is just fine so I will probably stop doing that.


--------------------

Edited by Oggy (05/09/15 07:36 PM)

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Re: Salvia Divinorum Growers Unite! [Re: Oggy]
    #21659290 - 05/09/15 10:20 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Forgive me if you've mentioned any of the variables I'm asking about, but I've been reading through a ton of salvia threads recently.

How long were the roots on the cuttings when you planted them?? Maybe they still are trying to grow out some roots to support themselves. So far, I haven't had any of my cuttings really start dropping leaves before they started growing into larger plants. Not like they get huge or anything, I'm just talking about how they will get past their transplant shock and actually show growth and usually grow up a bit before showing any of the usual symptoms and frustrations we all experience when growing salvia.

Since the mother is starting to droop, it's either needing water, or something else is going on. The fact that it's drooping and you say the soil is still moist is a bit worrisome. Are ALL the leaves drooping uniformly, or just the older ones? If it's just the old ones, maybe they are also getting ready to drop as well. If they are ALL dropping, then the plant is likely dehydrated either from lack of moisture in the soil or from the roots not being able to uptake available water.

The fact that they haven't been watered in a month (it's good you haven't watered before they needed it) might also be a red flag here. Or it might not be. To me, though it seems like for a well rooted plant (and I'm just talking about the mother here, obviously) it should need water more often. This fact combined with the fact that you say the leaves are starting to droop might indicate a root problem on the mother. 

Quote:

Oggy said: Fortunately, there is some new growth. Not much, but some. I think the growth is starting to speed up.





This is a good sign though...



Sometimes, I think the hardest thing about growing salvia is just that most information/advice (including my own) is oftentimes just speculation and that there is just no right way of doing things that is guaranteed. I hope we can get your plants to pull through, though.  Probably just shot any salvia credibility I had in the foot, right there, didn't I?

Anyway, keep the updates coming. The only thing I can recommend as of right now is to continue to withhold water until they need it, i.e. leaves uniformly drooping, if not just the soil being uniformly dry. Hopefully your leaf drop will prove to just be from the room changing temps from the weather warming up or something. Quite honestly, a significant amount of my salvia rearing experience is crossing my fingers and holding on for the ride... I'm crossing my fingers for ya, Oggy!



When, or anybody else, do you guys have any insight? Thoughts?


--------------------
One day Alice came to a fork in the road and saw a Cheshire cat in a tree.
'Which road do I take?' she asked.
'Where do you want to go?' was his response.
'I don't know', Alice answered.
'Then', said the cat, 'it doesn't matter.'




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Re: Salvia Divinorum Growers Unite! [Re: Oggy]
    #21660146 - 05/10/15 06:01 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

It's tough to diagnose a particular problem when not face to face of course, but I will give my opinion based on what I've seen and read.

I think your basic setup looks good, light and humidity levels ok for normal growth.
I have an issue with the visual of your soil though, it looks a little dry.

I find even though the soil looks moist there are some times when it's not wet enough, or the root mass is in a dryer area underneath. Let's say that was the case. So the somewhat dry root mass is going to send out roots to find water, but in a pot where most of the moisture is believed around the mass, the roots that are going exploring for water aren't going to find any.

You as the grower are going to have a tough time seeing your plant up close while debating which piece of advice applies to your problem.

The length of time since watering seems long, and maybe the plant was unbalanced with the foliar spraying and the root uptake.

If you are feeling experimental, maybe give one of the cuttings lots more water than the others and gauge it's result with the others. Changes with salvia are usually slow, a few days, which makes diagnosing the result of an change in conditions difficult. Especially if other changes are made during this time, leading to compound problems.

Case in point with advice, I would recommend that you water, where as cowsRmeat suggested otherwise, you will have to weigh the advice with what you see in front of you to make your decision. We both want the best for your babies, and will give advice based on our experience. And as cows said, there is more than one way to grow successfully, and a lot of helpful advice will be offered

I am still learning about this plant, and years after, I'll still be learning.

I struggle with the too much/not enough water issue. I see my cuttings live quite happily submerged in 100% water, with healthy white roots. Now if there were a case of overwatering that would be it, but the plants don't die. I've read where someone had a salvia plant growing in an aquarium, lot of water there. So the issue isn't the water, it's the oxygen to the roots?

Therefore I would have to believe for a salvia plant to have overwatering problems the soil would have to have the consistency of mud or wet clay to be devoid of oxygen for a time? The roots suffocate, die, then rot sets in. So I'm not sure if it's really a bad thing to have the soil moist, not soaking wet, always. The soil will still go through a drying cycle after being watered, dry somewhat thus allowing oxygen in. The soil is still moist at this point, just not wet. Of course a well draining soil will be needed.

Real world example of this watering thing we're talking about happenend this morning for me, and is currently in progress, and I'm bewildered.
I'll post all about it soon.

Anyway Oggy, post pics and your thoughts and surely your babies will grow up strong with your love and care.


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