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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: will the war on psychedelics ever end? [Re: zzripz] * 1
    #21638906 - 05/05/15 10:19 AM (9 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
quite a bit ironic seeing that the medical establishment is in cahoots already with the pharmaceutical corporations!



Everyone who worked their ass off to make a good career for themselves is evil?  Rich people are inherently evil? 

I still don't understand this paranoid theory that powerful people are you to get you.

The opinion of one fringe scientist is all the proof you need to make your theory a reality?


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

Edited by Cognitive_Shift (05/05/15 10:26 AM)

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: will the war on psychedelics ever end? [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #21639887 - 05/05/15 03:20 PM (9 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
The narrative that two brothers bombed the boston marathon in 2013 in an act of jihad.  The evidence speaks for it's self.

There are conspiracies, but I don't go out looking for them.  I look at what the evidence points towards and then form an opinion based off of the evidence.  Everything else is speculation or even worse politicized speculation.




Yep, the media said it was an act of jihad.  Seals the deal for me, and is enough evidence to stop looking.  Good job not making it political speculation.

:haha:


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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Offlinegraceful dragon
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Re: will the war on psychedelics ever end? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #21640365 - 05/05/15 05:15 PM (9 years, 15 days ago)

It's all about ignoring false laws..Right turn on red wouldn't have become legal if people hadn't pushed for it and done it anyway, when it wasn't legal. 

This isn't to say all laws should be ignored, but definitely those telling us cultivation and partaking of a plant, or plants, that sacred and healing in many cases, should really be done away with.

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InvisibleGottaloveacid
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Re: will the war on psychedelics ever end? [Re: graceful dragon] * 1
    #21640381 - 05/05/15 05:17 PM (9 years, 15 days ago)

"Laws are made to be challenged, so we can make them better"

Some movie I watched with high on xanax yesterday, only thing I remember :lol:


--------------------
   
:mushroom2::mushroom2: The greatest story ever told is the story that never ends!:mushroom2::mushroom2:

wubba lubba dub dubstep :gimmebass:

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Offlinezzripz
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Re: will the war on psychedelics ever end? [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #21642699 - 05/06/15 02:25 AM (9 years, 15 days ago)

I am not for the medicalization of psychedelics at all! In fact I suspect that the so-called 'psychedelic resurgence' is SO they hope to get them medicalized and controlled and confined within their corporate worldview.
After all the predominantly male medical establishment was built on the foundation of the persecution of 'witches', which means common people having access to all forms of natural healing folk remedies which would include psychoactive plants and fungi etc. JUST like is the case for the remaining indigenous peoples still surviving

There is no real psychedelic resurgence until all people are free to grow and take psychedelics in any way they wish

These two articles are a must-read about this: Psychiatric Power and Taboo in Modern Psychedelia (I noticed the other day trying to access this article that MAPS had taken it down from their website. Hmmmmm :strokebeard:)

Criminals and Researchers: Perspectives on the Necessity of Underground Research
Quote:


“I do not deny that there is sanctioned research being done on psychedelics, nor do I deny that there are groundbreaking results coming out of sanctioned psychedelic research. However, the fact of the matter is that there is not “enough” psychedelic research being done, nor do I believe it is possible to ever pursue “enough” psychedelic research within the confines of sanctioned institutions set within a prohibitionist paradigm.

This was the essence of the answer that I presented in this interview. Even when the interviewer pushed back and said that psychedelic research was becoming more and more accepted, I reiterated that there is a myriad of underground research that surpasses the findings of currently sanctioned research. And that’s where I left it. To be honest, I was pretty happy with my response at the time. Although I could feel a nagging doubt at the back of my mind, trying to tell me I was forgetting something, I couldn’t put my finger on what exactly it was. It was not until I stepped into the shower later that day that what I had neglected to say slammed into my mind like a runaway freight train. I stood there, shocked at myself for my omission. How had I missed it?

The Privileged Position of Sanctioned Psychedelic Research

Why is there a need for underground psychedelic research? Because 1) not everyone has access to the privilege required to become a sanctioned psychedelic researcher and, 2) the institutions that facilitate sanctioned research have pre-existing agendas that limit the scope of psychedelic research. Yes, the fact that psychedelics are illegal lends itself to underground research. However, the reason why underground psychedelic research is a necessity is because the institutions required to legitimize psychedelic research are exclusive loci—points at which institutional politics and financial security intersect, providing the means for a select few to engage in psychedelic research without legal penalties looming over their heads. This is not to denounce the efforts of sanctioned psychedelic researchers, but to examine the assumptions behind the question, “Why is there a need for underground psychedelic research?”

This question assumes that: 1) sanctioned psychedelic research can examine all of the interesting or relevant questions, 2) becoming a sanctioned researcher is possible for anyone who is passionate about researching psychedelics, and 3) that institutions and researchers sanctioned to engage in psychedelic research should have a monopoly on such research. A cursory glance at the credentials of some of the leading names in the field of Psychedelic Research presents a laundry list of post-secondary degrees from a who’s who of the top academic institutions in the United States. Simply put, even if every person interested in Psychedelic Research had the desire to acquire legitimacy by attending these institutions, such a goal would be largely unattainable.

In the US, post-secondary education is inaccessible to all but those wealthy enough to bear its financial burden, or those brave enough to gamble on repaying mind-boggling amounts of student loan debt. This is the result of a number of socioeconomic factors: 1) the ever-increasing financial costs of post-secondary education in the US, 2) rapidly growing economic inequality that rivals so-called “Third World” countries, 3) a job market where real wages and benefits have stagnated and declined since the mid-1960s, and 4) the transition from an unsustainable production-based economy to an unsustainable financial-product-based, so-called “service” economy. To pretend that post-secondary academic institutions are accessible to all is to ignore the stark realities of the society in which we live.

...When discussing a field of study as radically at odds with dominant culture as Psychedelic Research, the presence of these trends must not be overlooked. It is also worth noting that, increasingly, academia represents the privatization of knowledge. Underground researchers may have their own groupthink, but it is, at least, a different groupthink from sanctioned perspectives, and many groups of underground researchers present explicit disdain for the privatization of knowledge and seek to find ways to work against it.

Additionally, there is, at least at present, a limit to what the institutions responsible for sanctioned psychedelic research will allow for when it comes to the scope of psychedelic research. Much of the current research deals with the utilization of psychedelics as “medicine,” or substances that can help people regain some sort of “functionality” that they have lost. This approach is visible in a myriad of studies, including but not limited to, MDMA for the treatment of PTSD, psilocybin for the treatment of depression in terminally-ill patients, psilocybin for the treatment of cluster headaches, ayahuasca or iboga for addiction treatment, and many others. This research is meritorious, but focusing solely on “psychedelics as medicine” risks falling into Puritanical notions of what qualifies as a “medicine” and what qualifies as a “drug.”

Psychedelics are far too important to be co-opted by the false dichotomy of medicine vs drug, where mind-altering substances that are used for purposes other than to treat pathologies are viewed as illegitimate. Or, as we’ve seen with Cannabis, where scientists attempt to remove the psychoactive components of these substances, while preserving their medicinal effects. I would posit that in many cases, the psychoactive components are inextricably bound to the medicinal benefits observed by researcher

...Expanding the Scope of Psychedelic Research

The point of this is to say that psychedelics go far beyond treating illness. Exploring psychedelics as medicines presents fascinating and truly beneficial  research, but this is hardly the full story. Psychedelics present the ability for personal enrichment, ranging from neurogenesis to prolonged feelings of well-being and openness. Psychedelics also challenge many of the ontological models and assumptions we hold about the very nature of reality and existence. Limiting our research of psychedelics to the acute medicinal benefits in a disease-prevention/treatment model seems to neglect significant components of the effects of psychedelics.

The medicinal approach is perhaps the easiest pill for FDA and IRB panels to swallow, but this is precisely why we need underground psychedelic research…At least as long as these substances are criminalized, and quite probably even after legalization.

Psychedelic research, both sanctioned and underground, is experiencing a major resurgence, and seems to be here to stay. An increasing body of scientific and anecdotal evidence documents the incredible potential of psychedelic compounds. It is my sincerest hope that we will see many of the prohibitionist barriers to psychedelic research crumble, allowing for both greater numbers of sanctioned researchers and a safer environment for non-sanctioned researchers to continue this important work. But, for the time being…

I am a criminal. I am a researcher. Won’t you join me?”



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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: will the war on psychedelics ever end? [Re: zzripz]
    #21643152 - 05/06/15 07:11 AM (9 years, 14 days ago)


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Offlinesecondorder
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Re: will the war on psychedelics ever end? [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #21643362 - 05/06/15 08:51 AM (9 years, 14 days ago)

Okay thanks, I'll do a bit of research. I think this thread is getting a bit polarized and off topic, it's still interesting, but the subject of legalization inevitably brings up issues of government legitimacy and transparency, which is another discussion. I've given my two cents.
If/When the golden day comes that psychedelics are ever legalized then let's all get together and have a psilocybin orgy, but until that day comes I suppose we'll have to be a little more discreet in our use.

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Offlinezzripz
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Re: will the war on psychedelics ever end? [Re: secondorder]
    #21643481 - 05/06/15 09:49 AM (9 years, 14 days ago)

the 'war' on psychedelics is an illusion! it is the idea of moron in suits who are sad mechanical people without a soul.

at any time (when it is their season) you can go a pick magic mushrooms and have your magic mushrooms orgy... just watch out for spying drones!

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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: will the war on psychedelics ever end? [Re: zzripz]
    #21647191 - 05/07/15 12:54 AM (9 years, 14 days ago)


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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: will the war on psychedelics ever end? [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #21647213 - 05/07/15 01:02 AM (9 years, 14 days ago)

http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/#sthash.VcwjauKi.dpbs

(More crucial research for anyone learning about the drug war)

-E. Borodin

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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: will the war on psychedelics ever end? [Re: secondorder]
    #21647785 - 05/07/15 06:10 AM (9 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

secondorder said:
Okay thanks, I'll do a bit of research. I think this thread is getting a bit polarized and off topic, it's still interesting, but the subject of legalization inevitably brings up issues of government legitimacy and transparency, which is another discussion. I've given my two cents.
If/When the golden day comes that psychedelics are ever legalized then let's all get together and have a psilocybin orgy, but until that day comes I suppose we'll have to be a little more discreet in our use.




....I'm not sure that being discreet is the solution, I think we need to be visible, but in the proper way, we don't need a repeat of the 1960s, but I don't think going underground is any better of a solution, these things eventually must be dealt with, specially if they really do hold some signifigance to our species.

What I have yet to hear is viable solutions being proposed in the real world, at least not by people who are in any position to do anything about it....

Even in forums like this, there's a lot of examination of the issue, but little is said when it comes to dealing with it.

-E. Borodin

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Offlinesecondorder
Amanda Hug'n'kiss
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Re: will the war on psychedelics ever end? [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #21647982 - 05/07/15 07:29 AM (9 years, 13 days ago)

Yeah I suppose you're right. I've heard Rick Doblin of MAPS suggest a couple of things for the average psychedelic user to do in order to help the legalization movement:

He says that we should first start "coming out of the psychedelic closet." If society was aware just how many happy, healthy, people have used psychedelics and continue to live a good life and contribute to society, then the unreasonable fear of these substances will hopefully start to dissipate.
He also suggests that we educate ourselves as much as we can about psychedelics (and all drugs for that matter) so that we can give good, substantiated answer to challenges, and so that we can help spread accurate information on the subject.

I think these suggestions both sound quite reasonable. Other than that, your average psychedelic user can't really do much to promote legalization.

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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: will the war on psychedelics ever end? [Re: secondorder]
    #21648416 - 05/07/15 09:44 AM (9 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

secondorder said:
Yeah I suppose you're right. I've heard Rick Doblin of MAPS suggest a couple of things for the average psychedelic user to do in order to help the legalization movement:

He says that we should first start "coming out of the psychedelic closet." If society was aware just how many happy, healthy, people have used psychedelics and continue to live a good life and contribute to society, then the unreasonable fear of these substances will hopefully start to dissipate.
He also suggests that we educate ourselves as much as we can about psychedelics (and all drugs for that matter) so that we can give good, substantiated answer to challenges, and so that we can help spread accurate information on the subject.

I think these suggestions both sound quite reasonable. Other than that, your average psychedelic user can't really do much to promote legalization.




I agree.

I'm honestly about burned out on this topic at the moment, but appreciate your contributions to the discussion secondorder, thank you for being productive in your responses and remaining as objective as possible.

-E. Borodin

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Offlinesecondorder
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Re: will the war on psychedelics ever end? [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #21651859 - 05/08/15 03:17 AM (9 years, 13 days ago)

No worries man. Thank you and the other poster in this thread for opening up another window of information for me to pursue.

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OfflineRennHuhn
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Re: will the war on psychedelics ever end? [Re: Coincidentiaoppositorum]
    #21651996 - 05/08/15 05:35 AM (9 years, 12 days ago)

I see it ending allready actually, in Germany we lack the private prison system and even in the us I doubt that psychedelics are the the big money makers in that regard.

Psychedelics are fringe drugs and will stay fringe drugs. They dont make enough money to be interesting for intelligence agencies, or pharmaceutical companies. You cant patent them anymore.

Here in Germany its still illegal and will stay illegal for a long time, but they are no longer in the focus of the police or law makers. Psychedelic research chemicals are banned extremely slowly in comparison to opioids or uppers, because they cause less problems and are not the important moneymakers for the criminal organizations.

You see busts for cocain and heroin and speed all the time, but shrooms and LSD are mostly produced by non violent organisations.
There is no control on shroom kits or cactus. There is no crackdown, things are the way they are because they allways have been this way, not because people actively care about them.

Nothing will change for the time being. In maybe 10-15 years there will be decriminalization and maybe some time after that, when some people died on some inpure drugs under a progressive government there will be legalization. I dont see a big movement coming like with weed. Or another counter culture. But it will not get worse here as long as the media does not create a new scare.

Regarding the position that they are ilegal because they free the mind, thats bullshit. They where made illegal for a big part because they wanted to deal with the counter culture, but the counter culture was a political movement that used LSD as its catalyst. Today many people take psychedelics and dont change their political opinion, because psychedelics are not important in the great scheme of things for most people.

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OfflineCoincidentiaoppositorum
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Re: will the war on psychedelics ever end? [Re: secondorder]
    #21652013 - 05/08/15 05:55 AM (9 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

secondorder said:
No worries man. Thank you and the other poster in this thread for opening up another window of information for me to pursue.




Your welcome, I know I can come across as grumpy, bitter, or one-sided at times, and participating in productive debate is really helping me work on those issues, as well as educating me in these maters at the same time....

I promised myself id take a break from this topic, but please let the discussion and debate continue.

-E. Borodin

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