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OfflinePositronius
playboy

Registered: 11/27/03
Posts: 947
Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
Last seen: 19 years, 5 months
Re: Mushrooms and Devolution [Re: Swami]
    #2166682 - 12/07/03 02:15 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

1. Psychedelics inspire creation. Evidence?

thousands of first-hand testimonials

2. Psychedelics create new ways of thinking. Evidence?

doesnt the use of psychedelic create more neural pathways?


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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Anonymous

Re: Mushrooms and Devolution [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2166684 - 12/07/03 02:16 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Personally, for me, mind expanding drugs opened my mind to question things that were taught to me as if they were the gospel truth.

Did I question things like that before the drugs?

Yes.

Did I question them with the clarity and precision that I did after the drugs?

Not on your life.

And these questions were and are the cornerstone of who I am today.

They helped me to find truth and realize what constitutes a good life from a bad life.

And yes, there is a qualitative difference.

In any event we shouldn't blame the drugs but the people who misuse them. John Lennon misused drugs and his life went to shit. I hope that isn't a revelation for anyone. Fireworks point was right on target.

Don't blame the fertilizer. Blame the asshole who overfertilized the plant.

Anything can be misused.


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Mushrooms and Devolution [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2166689 - 12/07/03 02:17 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Having been partly responsible for the devolution of this thread, let me try to steer a course back towards what Swami was getting at.

Thomas Edison was the most prolific inventor of the twentieth century. He holds 1,093 patents including things you may have heard of: the lightbulb and phonograph (read "turntable" for the kids out there).

LSD had yet to be discovered (even by Edison) in his day, but altered states could be had by other means. "Edison used to work very hard in his research ..Then when he would reach a 'sticking point' he would take one of his famous 'cat naps'. He would doze off in his favorite chair, holding steel balls in the palms of his hands. As he would fall asleep - drifting into alpha - his arms would relax and lower, letting the balls fall into pans on the floor. The noise would wake Edison and very often he would awaken with an idea to continue with his project." -Bernd

There you have it. Perhaps the most famous inventor in history using altered states to create inventions.
Deal with THAT, Swami.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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OfflinePositronius
playboy

Registered: 11/27/03
Posts: 947
Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
Last seen: 19 years, 5 months
Re: Mushrooms and Devolution [Re: Jellric]
    #2166697 - 12/07/03 02:18 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

what about da vinci, his drug of choice was sleep deprivation, yes?

Coppola dropped acid while making Apocalypse Now


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Mushrooms and Devolution [Re: Positronius]
    #2166706 - 12/07/03 02:21 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Coppola dropped acid while making Apocalypse Now

He also picked his nose while making that movie. To make any kind of point you must show correlation. You know: cause and effect.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: Mushrooms and Devolution [Re: Positronius]
    #2166711 - 12/07/03 02:22 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

And Bach was a caffeine freak along with Buckminster Fuller.

There are dozens of examples.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 11 days
Re: Mushrooms and Devolution [Re: Swami]
    #2166715 - 12/07/03 02:23 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Facts:

1. People burn-out, have bad trips, do stupid things, exacerbate mental illness, become detached from consensus reality and occasionally die on psychedelics(even mushrooms).

2. Most people on these boards have tried some psychedelics.

3. Much of the logic on these boards is weak, faulty or non-existent.




I am not disagreeing with any of this. Except for number two, I would like to think it doesn't apply to me (unless I am too far detached from consensus reality... the consensus? :grin: )

Quote:


Speculation:

1. Psychedelics inspire creation. Evidence?

2. Psychedelics create new ways of thinking. Evidence?

3. Psychedelics increase intelligence. Evidence?




I don't believe that psychadelics increase intelligence. Creating new ways of thinking? Well, they might open a door to a way of thinking long ago abandoned.... probably to survive as a species.

We developed the ability to focus so that we could survive. Well, that is definitely a good thing. But it is nice once and awhile to let ourselves go in a controlled environment and just experience... it puts a fresh perspective on the time where we have to focus and also teaches us the lesson of learning how to change what we focus on... well, if you learn it.

As far as psychadelics inspiring Creation, I have personal evidence on that one. I will try to show this, but you don't have to accept it if you don't want to.

Myself, I find that when altered (marijuana, of course... cocaine occasionally, but there is an entirely different reason on why that works. hehe) I am able to "feel" what it is that I am playing. Definitely hard to explain.

I guess I find that psycadelics allow my mind to get a grasp on the entire experience. My mind can put the pieces together a lot easier because I am not thinking about other things.

Anyways, I understand that this is all entirely capable sober, and is actually something I am really striving for. But it doesn't hurt to drink some wine and write some symphonies occasionally. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Mushrooms and Devolution [Re: ]
    #2166718 - 12/07/03 02:24 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

John Lennon misused drugs and his life went to shit.

If only all of our lives went to shit like Lennon's the world would be a wonderful place.
Seriously, I take your point. You can't blame the drugs, but you can blame the person.

Being a fan of Lennon and The Beatles, I just wanted to clarify that Lennon only briefly got off track with his use of drugs. Even if he had stopped there, his life would have been totally worthwhile. Years later he had hits again..Instant Karma, Double Fantasty, etc. Then his career was cut short by a nutcase.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Mushrooms and Devolution [Re: Positronius]
    #2166725 - 12/07/03 02:27 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

thousands of first-hand testimonials
Anecdotes mean little. In tests, art done while tripping was worse than that done sober.

doesnt the use of psychedelic create more neural pathways?
Not to my knowledge. Reference please.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflinePositronius
playboy

Registered: 11/27/03
Posts: 947
Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
Last seen: 19 years, 5 months
Re: Mushrooms and Devolution [Re: Jellric]
    #2166726 - 12/07/03 02:27 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

swami:He also picked his nose while making that movie. To make any kind of point you must show correlation. You know: cause and effect

Coppola wanted to make a great surrealist film, so he took psychedelic drugs during productions.

effect = surrealist masterpeice

cause = genius + LSD


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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OfflinePositronius
playboy

Registered: 11/27/03
Posts: 947
Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
Last seen: 19 years, 5 months
Re: Mushrooms and Devolution [Re: Positronius]
    #2166731 - 12/07/03 02:28 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

swami: Anecdotes mean little. In tests, art done while tripping was worse than that done sober.

I guess youve never heard of the impressionists, thats a pity. empiricism is not merely anecdotal.

Were you feeling creative before you took the drug? no

were you feeling creative while on the drug? yes

bam! there you go, go test this out on someone and see if works out.


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


Edited by Positronius (12/07/03 02:32 PM)


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Mushrooms and Devolution [Re: Swami]
    #2166738 - 12/07/03 02:32 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

In tests, art done while tripping was worse than that done sober.

:lol: What kind of art would a person come up with in a lab surrounded by scientists in white lab coats?!
Test Tube Boy strikes (out) again!
Swami, do you know anything about the creative process??


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 11 days
Re: Mushrooms and Devolution [Re: Swami]
    #2166746 - 12/07/03 02:35 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

thousands of first-hand testimonials
Anecdotes mean little. In tests, art done while tripping was worse than that done sober.




I could believe this, because it is often times extremely hard to function normally while peaking, at least for myself.

Then again, who knows. A lot of musicians have went on stage on acid. Myself, I don't see how I could do it. Marijuana, maybe. Cocaine, definitely, but sticking your head into a lion's mouth usually isn't a good thing unless you are extremely capable of doing it right... and there is always that time that you get bit anyways...

But back to what I was saying. I could definitely see how one couldn't create if the dose was too powerful. However, the insight and the perspective gained from the experience I think could definitely produce some very quality art later on. True, it is one step down the road, but it is still an effect of the experience. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Mushrooms and Devolution [Re: Jellric]
    #2166755 - 12/07/03 02:39 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

...in a lab surrounded by scientists in white lab coats?!

Huh? Hallucinating again?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Mushrooms and Devolution [Re: Swami]
    #2166756 - 12/07/03 02:40 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, I thought I saw a reply to my destruction of your hypothesis .


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 11 days
Re: Mushrooms and Devolution [Re: Jellric]
    #2166761 - 12/07/03 02:44 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Yeah, I thought I saw a reply to my destruction of your hypothesis .




I think what he is saying is that a lot of times the tests are done in an environment more suitable for what is being tested. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Mushrooms and Devolution [Re: Positronius]
    #2166768 - 12/07/03 02:48 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Coppola wanted to make a great surrealist film, so he took psychedelic drugs during productions.

Stanley Kubrick made a great psychedelic sci-fi (2001) without drugs.

Genius + drugs = great work of art

Genius without drugs = great work of art

Let's get the common denominator which would be "genius".

Seems like your garden-variety null hypothesis.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Mushrooms and Devolution [Re: Swami]
    #2166782 - 12/07/03 02:56 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

*bump*

Thomas Edison was the most prolific inventor of the twentieth century. He holds 1,093 patents including things you may have heard of: the lightbulb and phonograph (read "turntable" for the kids out there).

LSD had yet to be discovered (even by Edison) in his day, but altered states could be had by other means. "Edison used to work very hard in his research ..Then when he would reach a 'sticking point' he would take one of his famous 'cat naps'. He would doze off in his favorite chair, holding steel balls in the palms of his hands. As he would fall asleep - drifting into alpha - his arms would relax and lower, letting the balls fall into pans on the floor. The noise would wake Edison and very often he would awaken with an idea to continue with his project." -Bernd

There you have it. Perhaps the most famous inventor in history using altered states to create inventions.
Deal with THAT, Swami.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Mushrooms and Devolution [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2166785 - 12/07/03 02:59 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, I thought I saw a reply to my destruction of your hypothesis .

I think what he is saying is that a lot of times the tests are done in an environment more suitable for what is being tested

And this relates to my demolition of Swami's argument how?


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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OfflineViaggio
ChemicalConsumer

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 1,296
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
Re: Mushrooms and Devolution [Re: Swami]
    #2166793 - 12/07/03 03:04 PM (20 years, 1 month ago)

hmm...maybe shrooms (and the like) are capapble of both positive and negative influence on our species?


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."


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