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InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Counterfeiting
    #2162946 - 12/05/03 11:50 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

How does creating counterfeit money harm anyone if the bills are perfect copies? To put it another way, by what mechanism(s) are people victimized by counterfeiting if the counterfeit currency is indistinguishable from 'legal tender'?

Are there any differences in the harm incurred on the unsuspecting populace from the government sponsored actions of creating more money versus those of non-legal entities?

Are there any moral (not legal) difference when the actions of increasing the money supply are undertaken by the state and/or it's duly authorized central bank as opposed to such results being achieved via illegal means?


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 7,262
Re: Counterfeiting [Re: Autonomous]
    #2162950 - 12/05/03 11:51 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

They are making money without paying taxes...

?


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InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Re: Counterfeiting [Re: angryshroom]
    #2163006 - 12/06/03 12:15 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

???

The government doesn't pay taxes on the money it makes.

Try thinking about the mechanism by which people are defrauded by counterfeit currency, how they have their wealth taken away from them without their knowledge. This has nothing to do with paying taxes. The principles involved are the same even if there were no taxes.


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
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Re: Counterfeiting [Re: Autonomous]
    #2163058 - 12/06/03 12:33 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Autonomous writes:

How does creating counterfeit money harm anyone if the bills are perfect copies? To put it another way, by what mechanism(s) are people victimized by counterfeiting if the counterfeit currency is indistinguishable from 'legal tender'?

Ooooh. Good one. Either Wingnutx or Evolving posted a similar question many months ago which vanished in some server fuckup. I was waiting to see a re-post eventually from someone.

Are there any differences in the harm incurred on the unsuspecting populace from the government sponsored actions of creating more money versus those of non-legal entities?

Nope.

Are there any moral (not legal) difference when the actions of increasing the money supply are undertaken by the state and/or it's duly authorized central bank as opposed to such results being achieved via illegal means?

Nope.

I am seeing this first hand here in the Dominican Republic. For many years (almost five years, as I recall) the Dominican peso was more or less stable at around 12.20 to 13 to the US dollar. Then the new government was elected, and immediately started instituting various socialist "reforms". The peso went to 14 in less than a year, then to 16 or 17, where it more or less stabilized for about a year, then about a year and a half ago the decline accelerated. Thirteen months ago it was trading at 18 to the US dollar. A few days ago, when I last checked, it was trading at 42 to the US dollar.

This happened because the government had to pay for the socialist programs. First it borrowed (internationally) a TON of money with no possible way of ever paying it off. Now it's paying off these loans and all other government costs by simply running the printing presses.

Imagine you're a poor campesino struggling to put money in the bank. In less than four years, you see two thirds of your life's savings evaporate. During the same time, you see the cost of the things you need to buy to stay alive triple.

This is just one more reason I am such a staunch Laissez-faire Capitalist. Government has no business interfering in economic matters -- not even to print money. Hell, especially not to print money.

pinky


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Counterfeiting [Re: Autonomous]
    #2163060 - 12/06/03 12:33 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I was just saying that its illegal because its non-taxed income. If you are making money any way that you arent taxed on, its pretty much illegal, right? (Drugs, counterfeit money)


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,183
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 2 years, 13 days
Re: Counterfeiting [Re: Autonomous]
    #2163067 - 12/06/03 12:39 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

If you just made a few perfect counterfeits then there would be no noticable harm. But you flooded the country with counterfeits then the value of the dollar would fall. People would no longer place value in the dollar if it could be reproduced so easily. They would invest in a more secure currency.


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man = monkey + mushroom


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InvisibleAutonomous
MysteriousStranger

Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
Re: Counterfeiting [Re: angryshroom]
    #2163090 - 12/06/03 12:50 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

First, we should not confuse the colloquialism 'making money' which usually means 'earning money,' with the act of printing or manufacturing currency.

How is it immoral to earn money and not pay taxes on it? Is it then immoral for charities to gain income without paying taxes? If Jose Sanchez (an undocumented entrepreneur) is on a freeway off ramp in Los Angeles selling oranges and he doesn't pay taxes on his pittance of an income, who is harmed? I would also say that since Jose is engaged in voluntary transactions that his actions are neither immoral nor harmful.

The original questions were intended to bring about thoughts and discussion on the harm and immorality of counterfeiting. Try thinking about it from an economic perspective. As I stated before, the principles are the same even if there is no taxation.


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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Offlinemntlfngrs
The Art of Casterbation
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Registered: 07/18/02
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Re: Counterfeiting [Re: Autonomous]
    #2163286 - 12/06/03 02:38 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

IIf enough funny money was introduced into the economy it would create inflation and if discovered on a large scale it undermine confidence in the currency (confidence is the only thing that gives the buck it's value). Eventualy it would be discovered by a central bank because of duplicate or niot yet issued serial numbers would surface. At that point someone would not be able to recieve credit for the bills and would be out that money.

The moral question is not that difficult. It is stealing plain and simple.


I think your legal exposure would be less by printing liberty dollars.


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Be all and you'll be to end all


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