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InvisibleSwami
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Animals as Moral Models
    #2162760 - 12/05/03 09:53 PM (13 years, 4 days ago)

I find it ironic that animals are frequently used as some sort of moral model. The thought beind this must be that they are not neurotic and closer to the ground-of-being or more "natural"; therefore their behaviour should be looked to when considering right and wrong.

Animals exhibit the FULL LINE of "negative" human-like behaviours. At various times they are cannabilistic, steal from one another, kill their young, kill for pleasure, practice deceit, get rid of their elders, eat their spouse, make war, rape, etc.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Animals as Moral Models [Re: Swami]
    #2162803 - 12/05/03 10:21 PM (13 years, 4 days ago)

The animal that I know of which is often used as a moral model, and with good reason, is the Dog. (at least, the domesticated dog.)

To start with, dogs are honest. They don't hide their feelings. They don't voice "harmless" little lies or tell us they've been somewhere when they haven't. We don't expect dogs to remember our birthdays and anniversaries because we know from the start that they are simply incapable of doing so. But we also know that whenever there is a celebration, they will enthusiastically join in the fun. And if ever they do something wrong-and they will-they look guilty and beg desperately for our forgiveness with such sad sweet eyes we are compelled to reach down and give them a pat on the head. One cannot hold a grudge against a dog.

But perhaps the most marvelous characteristic of dogs is that they absolutely live to serve their owners. Nothing makes them happier than making you happy. They are eternally loyal, and their lives are given meaning by ministering to others. It touches me deeply to see a dog serving it?s entire life to help lead a blind person, through everyday obstacles, ever so loyally and faithfully.

Not only do dogs know how to play, a skill many humans have lost, but what?s more, dogs don?t hold a grudge. Dogs know how to relax. Dogs take criticism without resentment. Dogs have no difficulty showing their love openly. Dogs can teach human beings how to be happier. A lot of books have been written about what you can teach your dog, but there aren?t many about what your dog can teach you.

In fact, dogs make us remember what it is to be simply, perfectly happy. They charm and enchant us, lifting our spirits effortlessly. Walk down the street with a dog and the most sour faces light up instantly. Even a few minutes spent playing with a dog removes us from our hectic routines and burdensome responsibilities and into a world of joy, inspiring us to play like children-without regard to the adult world's cutthroat rules and competitiveness.

Dogs are some of the most intrinsically beautiful creatures on this planet. Their unconditional love and affection despite what shortcomings it?s owner has, really makes me shed a tear. ?sniffle-

?A dog is the only thing that will love you more than it loves itself.?-Author unknown

And lastly, always remember..? There's no such thing as a bad dog. Only bad owners.?


Oh, and what about Cats too?
Cats are wonderful, smart independent and low-maintanence creatures.
Cats are nothing if not sensitive to emotional and physical boundaries. They have the most carefully attuned sense of balance in all things, making them the perfect household companions. And cats have a certain keen intelligence that causes you to feel they are one step ahead of you at every turn.

Cats have a marvelous sense of discretion. They endure the company of others until it is boring, and not one second longer. It's not that they're snobbish, but they make no bones about how they really feel. One could never imagine a cat faking...anything!

Cats are never unpleasant, merely, at times, uninterested. And why not? They don't suffer fools gladly, preferring their own serene company to second-class companionship and clumsy attempts at affection. They are supremely secure beings who teach us that striving for a little bit of solitude is natural and desirable.

From a cat one learns grace, silence, and contentment. When stroke a purring cat you nearly begin to purr yourself! In fact, cats are incredibly tactile and sensual. Rub a cat the right way and she will truly appreciate your touch, stretching out and smiling to show her pleasure.

One other thing I really like about cats as well, is that unlike with dogs, you must earn their respect. If you kick a dog, it'll run away with it's tail in between it's legs and then come back to you sooner or later. With cats however, you actually have to earn it's trust and respect, and then it will then grant you the same respect and trust in return, but if you make one mistake, and violate it's trust and love, it's over. You have to either start all over again, or never even have a chance of ever regaining it's respect. It can teach you R-E-S-P-E-C-T. And I like that. :smile: 


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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Animals as Moral Models [Re: Swami]
    #2162804 - 12/05/03 10:21 PM (13 years, 4 days ago)



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Animals as Moral Models [Re: Swami]
    #2162818 - 12/05/03 10:30 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)

Animals are also animals, and humans should know better.

I find it ironic that people like george bush are used as some sort of moral model.

I'd much rather be like a dolphin, than dubya.


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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: Animals as Moral Models [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2162880 - 12/05/03 11:17 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)

Dogs can lick their own balls, and cats... well, wherever cats lick themselves they're licking pussy. What's the moral of that story?


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Animals as Moral Models [Re: Autonomous]
    #2162890 - 12/05/03 11:25 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)

The moral is they have a distinct advantage over us.

They can lick their own private parts.

Lucky them :wink:

 


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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Animals as Moral Models [Re: Swami]
    #2163233 - 12/06/03 02:17 AM (13 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
At various times they are cannabilistic, steal from one another, kill their young, kill for pleasure, practice deceit, get rid of their elders, eat their spouse, make war, rape, etc.




Can you give examples? It seems like you are projecting your values onto what are natural animal behaviors. They don't rape or kill for pleasure or make war. You state all of these in a negative human context when in reality they are perfectly acceptable and MORAL animal behaviors.


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Be all and you'll be to end all


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Animals as Moral Models [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2163294 - 12/06/03 02:41 AM (13 years, 3 days ago)

The greatest thing about animals, is there is no pretense, they are what they are. If a dog comes up and licks your face, you never have to question whether or not they meant it.  We are a different story however. Anyways, in my opinion the "golden rule" is the only kind of morality model we need. If everyone honestly followed that, the world would very likely be a far better place then it is now. Ofcourse the trick is being honest with yourself and others, when determining if you would actually mind if someone treated you in the way you are contemplating treating somebody else. I personally don't believe in free will, so by extension i dont believe in good or evil, just percieved good and/or evil, so in the end i think we are all doing exactly what we have to do based on the previous moments and the current moment. But having said that it is still extremely hard to go through life if not impossible, with out acting as if you had free will whether you believe in it or not, so in that case i think its best if we try to follow the golden rule, but whether or not we do that, and whether or not we do it well is all left to fait and/or chance. Ultimately my only comfort comes from the feeling that this is all happening just as it should, and that tomorrow is always uncertain. How horrible it would be to know thinks were going to suck, ofcourse the trick is getting comfortable with not knowing if they will or wont, but whether or not you can do that is even left to fait and/or chance, but what choice do you have except to try?  :wink:
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Animals as Moral Models [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2163646 - 12/06/03 08:50 AM (13 years, 3 days ago)

The only animals I know that kill for pleasure are domesticated ones. And even then, I think it's more out of instinct than for pleasure. As humans we often try to ignore our animal selves, and perhaps we shouldn't be. We should embrace them and move on.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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InvisibleAdom
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Re: Animals as Moral Models [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2163733 - 12/06/03 10:26 AM (13 years, 3 days ago)

Muskies kill for pleasure, the fish, I'm sure there are plenty of others that is just one that comes to mind.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Animals as Moral Models [Re: Shroomism]
    #2163759 - 12/06/03 10:43 AM (13 years, 3 days ago)

"Animals are also animals, and humans should know better. "

If humans and animals both exhibit this kind of behaviour, what makes you think that humans should know better?

Also, dogs demonstrate all kinds of happy go lucky behaviour we love, but they also do all the things humans hate, murder, rape, and the usual.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Animals as Moral Models [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2163763 - 12/06/03 10:45 AM (13 years, 3 days ago)

"They don't rape or kill for pleasure or make war."

They don't? They do to the same extent humans do. There are malicious dogs and especially cats that toy with their prey.

How is it less right for humans to do these things than animals?


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Animals as Moral Models [Re: Swami]
    #2163779 - 12/06/03 11:05 AM (13 years, 3 days ago)

well, them critters do share the biosphere with us, and have since we started calling ourselve "the people" ...
i suppose it is inevitable that as we obsreve our nonhuman neighbors, we will attempt to see the "why" of what they are doing...
maybe there's some projection involved, but - "all sentient beings have buddha nature" (MU! :wink: ...) & "all that groks is god" &c...
and we do share a lotta common genes & enzymes & neurochemistry & such, & the more closely "related" we are, the more in common we share biochemically, say the biologists (makes sense to me...)
and fables & stories & myths from time immemorial - american "coyote" stories (& so many others), aesop's fables (greek/afican)( african "anansi the spider" & even bre'r rabbit, yep, & the buddhist "jataka" tales --- right up to modern stories like orwell's _animal farm_ , adams' _watership down_ , & some of charles de lint's magical stories, & the amazing scifi of cordweainer smith's "underpeople" stories...
~
good morning...
~
~


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Animals as Moral Models [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2163895 - 12/06/03 12:26 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)

The greatest thing about animals, is there is no pretense, they are what they are.

The angler fish pretends to be a piece of food - then whooosh, the hapless little victim fish that was tricked into getting too close gets vacuumed into its cavernous mouth.

The eggs of a cuckoo bird look like those of another species. The cuckoo destroys the host's species egg and tricks the host into caring for the cuckoo's egg.

Camouflage and deceit are part and parcel of the animal kingdom. The list is quite long.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlined33p
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Re: Animals as Moral Models [Re: Phluck]
    #2163964 - 12/06/03 12:57 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
"They don't rape or kill for pleasure or make war."

They don't? They do to the same extent humans do. There are malicious dogs and especially cats that toy with their prey.

How is it less right for humans to do these things than animals?




Yep, this one time at some lion safari i went to they had a bunch of lions in a large but caged area. One male lion raped another male. It was wierd.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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OfflineDroz
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Re: Animals as Moral Models [Re: Swami]
    #2163987 - 12/06/03 01:06 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)

Perhaps the three-toed sloth thought the same thing until it realized it could live with many beings and have a even more fantastic experience. The three-toes sloth exhibits it's ability to live a simple symbiotic life with the tree. As other cannibalistic animals stumbled across another aggressive animal killed it and ate it.


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Evolution of Time.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Animals as Moral Models [Re: d33p]
    #2164099 - 12/06/03 01:42 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

d33p said:

Yep, this one time at some lion safari i went to they had a bunch of lions in a large but caged area. One male lion raped another male. It was wierd. 



hahahah! and who says that shit only takes place in jail with humans? :smirk: 


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Anonymous

Re: Animals as Moral Models [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2164128 - 12/06/03 01:55 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)

Adom blue fish also kill more than they can eat. They will eat until their food is actualy falling out of there mouth. But even though they kill more then they consume all the death is not wasted it is used by smaller animals that cant hunt them selfs.

In general I belive all animals are teachers, for example a
Heron is a teacher of patience, stillness, awarness, it ties you to water also.
Blue fish /muskie feed on and kill more than they can eat but that food is shared with its smaller less skillful neighbors.
Bears teach use something about staying home and nurturing your young. Youu dont need to always be out and about. Winter is a time of reflection I am sure mama bear is reflecting on the summer past and where all the food is at for next year so that she can show her young the skills needed for the fallowing year.
Snakes/coldblooded reptiles tye us to the sun show us that life depends on it, tells us to soak it up while we can also teaches us about patience and adaptability that even if you cant use you arms and legs you can still live and love life.


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OfflineShizpow
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Re: Animals as Moral Models [Re: ]
    #2164593 - 12/06/03 05:42 PM (13 years, 3 days ago)

"The greatest thing about animals, is there is no pretense, they are what they are."

This is only because they lack the ability to lie and cheat. Any animal that posesses these abilities will use them. It's naive to say that just because a behavior is absent in a certain animal, say lying for example, then it's because the animal lacking the behavior is in any way "moral." I say again, any animal that can lie or cheat WILL lie or cheat, and any animal that refrains from lying or cheating only does so because it doesn't know how. As an example, chimpanzees have been shown to lie to each other. This is because they are smart enough to know that it may be adventageous and not because they are morally corrupt.


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If you cut a face lengthwise, urinate on it, and trample on it with straw sandles, it is said that the skin will come off. This was heard by the priest Gyojaku when he was in Kyoto. It is information to be treasured.


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Animals as Moral Models [Re: Swami]
    #2165449 - 12/07/03 12:23 AM (13 years, 2 days ago)

do these animals build nuclear weapons? LOL. Thats why i think people seem to think of them as primative beings that coexist with earth (not necesarrily other animals) im not agreeing with the fact to be more like animals on every level. Humans rape, kill, eat their own kind, make massive wars. I dont think we should be like animals, but i do think living with the earth is better than working against it.


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What?


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