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Invisiblemoonrockmushy
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Steam's new Pay-Per-Mod system
    #21594689 - 04/25/15 01:36 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

So I just read about this new thing being rolled out by Steam.  Here is an article if you don't know: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/04/24/paid-mods-steam/

Apparently they are going to start charging for mods, which are basically user-created content that alters or adds to an existing game.  There are so many ways this gets complicated, for example what happens when a user-created mod uses elements of other mods.  They seem to be totally unaware that 90% of mods suck, or are at least add nothing great to gameplay for most users.  Usually the best mods are either group projects, or at least use some amount of community content.  Mods also cannot be relied upon for support, and often only work with a specific release of a game.  What happens if I download a mod that doesn't work with the version I am playing on, or there is some other conflict?

I just find it ridiculous, and I plan to find this out on my own if nobody can answer it here, but what is to stop people from just installing mods the old fashioned way not using Steam's workshop?  It seems to me like the spent all this time and effort rolling out the Workshop feature, which I admit is kinda cool and convenient when it actually works (maybe 10% of the time :smirk:), but now they are hindering it by making it so that you need to pay. 

I don't know, it just pisses me off it seems like Steam is missing the whole point and trying to cash in here when they already seem to be doing a great job in so many ways.  I don't get it.  They are trying to pitch it as making money for modders, but really they just want to find a way to insert the pay-to-play model into high-tier PC titles.  Stop trying to be a console steam, if people wanted that they would buy a console.

(edit) -- Maybe I am overreacting.  If it is just an optional thing between developers and users, then whatever.  I can't see how they could charge for 90% of what is on the workshop, it is like inane shit mostly, so maybe most of it will remain free.  If someone actually puts in alot of work, and the developers are ok with them making money as long as they get a 75% cut, I guess that is fine by me.


Edited by moonrockmushy (04/25/15 01:42 PM)


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InvisibleByrain

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Re: Steam's new Pay-Per-Mod system [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #21594736 - 04/25/15 01:48 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Not to mention a lot of the steam workshop mods are highly out of date, I won't support it.  I'm already on the fence about even using steam at all, but its hard to resist...


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OfflineUzziel
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Re: Steam's new Pay-Per-Mod system [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #21596792 - 04/25/15 10:44 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

As soon as I heard about it, I stopped buying their games. I will never support steam anymore they do NOT deserve the hard work from user made content. I'd go broke from all the Skyrim mods out there. People will just stop uploading them there and will go elsewhere like the nexus :shrug:


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Invisiblemoonrockmushy
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Re: Steam's new Pay-Per-Mod system [Re: Uzziel]
    #21597249 - 04/26/15 01:08 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah I guess the great thing about PC games is that they don't ultimately have that control over us.  I can't say that I will stop using steam, but I think I'm going to start trying to purchase the games directly from developers whenever possible rather than just getting it on steam because I am lazy.  Alot of more savvy developers are writing mod support into games anyway so in many cases the workshop is redundant, and with more obscure games and mods it doesn't seem to work.  I'm not going to pay them just so I don't have to download something from a website and copy/paste into a folder :justno: nuh-uh no way


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InvisibleByrain

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Re: Steam's new Pay-Per-Mod system [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #21598776 - 04/26/15 01:27 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

You could also look into gog and desura.  I haven't tried them personally yet, but they are both drm-free alternatives of steam, desura has a free client, but the server is proprietary and gog is entirely proprietary.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Steam's new Pay-Per-Mod system [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #21601857 - 04/27/15 12:51 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Gabe Newell responds to reddit Q&A mostly about the paid mod system
http://www.pcgamer.com/gabe-newell-answers-questions-about-paid-mods-on-reddit/
Full QA: https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/33uplp/mods_and_steam/?sort=qa
Sheds some light on the situation.

I personally think people are overreacting just a bit. It was only just announced and the pitchforks are raised.
Steam has been an invaluable (free) service for many years.. and they haven't even announced all the details of how it's going to work.
Likely many mods will still remain free. There will most likely be free mods and paid mods kind of like the android/apple app store.
And there still will be ways to mod games without using it, I'm sure. And you could probably pirate paid mods if you were so inclined. 
I don't think it's a bad thing if someone wants to monetize their mod they coded. And I'm sure people will still release free ones. It's not a DRM strategy.
As far as I understand it that sounds like how it's going to work.. it sounds like it's completely up to the mod developer to decide if they want to charge for it or not.
Sounds like they want to develop a relationship with Nexus mods as well

I write scripts for a MUD, and I sell them to people who want it to make their lives easier.
I don't think there's anything wrong with being rewarded for your work or getting something back.
Steam is just facilitating it and making it easier for modders from the sounds of it. And getting a nice little cut themselves.
But I think it will actually help the mod community in the long run. It's not like it's pay to win.
It's pay-for-some-mods-if-you-want-to-support-the-dev-which-means-maybe-they-can-quit-their-day-job-and-mod/code-fulltime, resulting in higher quality/more mods.
But seriously, paid for mods just means mod makers make better and better mods.

Steam is the best and largest gaming service out there period. Gog and Desura and Raptr and the like are just whatever, they don't really compare to steam. Origin sucks donkey balls and is practically malware
Everyone is on Steam, at least all my PC gamer friends. It's THE proving grounds for indie developers and AAA games alike.
I don't think Valve will fuck it up. In fact they will probably do it quite fucking well and everyone wins. All hail Gaben


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa


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Re: Steam's new Pay-Per-Mod system [Re: Shroomism]
    #21602128 - 04/27/15 02:22 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

I wonder how much per mod?  Some of the top mods have over 5,000,000 DL's.  I have almost 100 mods running and feel as if about 50 of them are essential to me.  Or they will be really missed I guess.  The WATER mod is already moved and renamed because the guy is compiling his mods for this pay thing.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Steam's new Pay-Per-Mod system [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #21602263 - 04/27/15 03:30 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

As far as I understand it's completely up to the mod developer.

Gabe:
Quote:

Sky rim is a great example of a game that has benefitted enormously from the MODs. The option for paid MODs is supposed to increase the investment in quality modding, not hurt it.

About half of Valve came straight out of the MOD world. John Cook and Robin Walker made Team Fortress as a Quake mod. Ice frog made DOTA as a Warcraft 3 mod. Dave Riller and Dario Casali we Doom and Quake mappers. John Guthrie and Steve Bond came to Valve because John Carmack thought they were doing the best Quake C development. All of them were liberated to just do game development once they started getting paid. Working at Waffle House does not help you make a better game.





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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa


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Re: Steam's new Pay-Per-Mod system [Re: Shroomism]
    #21604941 - 04/27/15 07:17 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)



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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Steam's new Pay-Per-Mod system [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #21605866 - 04/27/15 10:07 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Garry's Mod creator weighs in on the issue
http://www.pcgamer.com/garrys-mod-creator-weighs-in-on-paid-mods/

Quote:


The internet may break this week under the weight of Opinions About Paid Mods, but it's worth taking a moment to hear Garry Newman's position. As the creator of Garry's Mod – a fully fledged paid title with origins as a free Source Engine mod – Newman is in the unique position of witnessing the transition from free to paid nearly ten years before Valve's announcement last week.

"It’s probably no big surprise that I’m all for it," Newman writes on his website. "I sold a mod once and everyone was angry that it was happening, until it happened and they got a much better product than they’d have gotten when it was released for free, then they seemed to calm down a bit. It has given me a career for ten years. It’s bought me two houses, a bunch of cars. It’s created a company that has hired 30+ people."

Newman argues that the fledgling modding marketplace will balance itself out eventually, with supply and demand dictating what sinks or swims, and what's paid or free. In this way, free mods will still dominate.

"Some stuff won’t be worth charging for," Newman write. "Some people won’t want paying for their stuff. If a mod takes ten seconds to make and someone wants to charge $10 for it then they won’t sell any copies because it’s not worth it. This is how the market balances itself. They’ll either have to lower their price or make it worth the price."

Meanwhile, those unable or unwilling to pay will inevitably find a way to pirate paid mods, he continues, and the possibility of stolen materials being uploaded shouldn't render the whole operation useless.

"There was a time where they’d almost completely stopped making PC games because of piracy. Should we really let the fact that sometimes people are assholes dictate what we do? Or should we just deal with it when it happens?"

Newman breaks down the pros and cons for each participant in a transaction, admitting that the benefits are weighed too heavily in Valve and the game developer's favour. "It’s obvious that Valve and the game developer need to make money here too, enough to cover costs at least – but it’s the modder’s work that is making the money," Newman said.

"I don’t know whose choice that is though, but it feels like someone is being a greedy asshole. This is something that will get better with time."

It's worth checking out Newman's full write-up here. Gabe Newell also addressed concerns about paid modding on Reddit at the weekend.




I think what he says makes perfect sense. It will balance itself out. Supply and demand will dictate what sells and what doesn't. Shit mods that someone tries to sell for a dumb amount of money probably wont sell. Free mods will still dominate. Modders with very popular mods that are making money from them, may be able to then focus more on mods - producing better quality and more mods. Paid mods will likely have better support in the majority of cases, where you may not get that with free ones. You don't have to pay for mods if you don't want to and if you were so inclined you could pirate paid mods..

Overall, I think it will probably be a good thing for the mod community. It will bring out more quality mods. Yeah some people will try to capitalize on it and produce a shitty copy and paste mod and try to sell it for $40 or whatever, but the market will regulate itself.. if their mod sucks no one will buy it. And maybe some person makes a shitty mod and some other team makes something 20x better and releases it to people for free. The old rules will still apply... people can still be open source and collaborating if they want to. This just puts a little money in some mod creator's pockets, which maybe enables them to focus on mods more. If someone want to sell a mod it damn better well be worth it because no one will buy it if it sucks ass.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Steam's new Pay-Per-Mod system [Re: Shroomism]
    #21606828 - 04/28/15 01:29 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

The misinformed ragers have spoken and teh valve has listened... cancelled for now. http://www.pcgamer.com/valve-has-removed-paid-mods-functionality-from-steam-workshop/


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Invisiblemoonrockmushy
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Re: Steam's new Pay-Per-Mod system [Re: Shroomism]
    #21607036 - 04/28/15 02:31 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Someone in the comments in that article makes a really good point in that this whole thing was kinda forced onto a community that has existed for years now, and has been sharing assets more or less freely.  The thing I would worry about most is people stealing work and uploading it as their own, and people who do less flashy mods that enable popular mods would likely not get full recognition.

Would it mean in the end that more good stuff will be uploaded since people have incentive or less good stuff gets uploaded because people are worried that others will steal their work for selfish reasons that do not benefit the community and people that put time into mods because they love the game?  Guess we won't find out for now at least.


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OfflineCj-B
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Re: Steam's new Pay-Per-Mod system [Re: moonrockmushy] * 2
    #21607213 - 04/28/15 03:41 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Honestly the part about it that pissed me off was the sheer impossiblity of actually extensively modding using a pay per mod system. It took me days to sort out my Skyrim mods cuz I wound up having like 90 of them. Testing and troubleshooting to see what works and what totally breaks my shit would wind up effectively wasting a hefty chunk of money being forced to buy every (or even just the higher tier of mods that everyone uses) mod regardless of whether they work or not. Otherwise I don't have much issue with modders making some cash from their efforts...though 75/25 in favor of Valve/Game Dev over the modder seems a bit lopsided.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Steam's new Pay-Per-Mod system [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #21607581 - 04/28/15 07:22 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

moonrockmushy said:
Someone in the comments in that article makes a really good point in that this whole thing was kinda forced onto a community that has existed for years now, and has been sharing assets more or less freely.  The thing I would worry about most is people stealing work and uploading it as their own, and people who do less flashy mods that enable popular mods would likely not get full recognition.

Would it mean in the end that more good stuff will be uploaded since people have incentive or less good stuff gets uploaded because people are worried that others will steal their work for selfish reasons that do not benefit the community and people that put time into mods because they love the game?  Guess we won't find out for now at least.




Yeah I can see that... people stealing work might be an issue.. but as Gary pointed out:

Quote:

People will upload stolen stuff

I’ve said it a million times – If “people are assholes on the internet” was a reason not to do something then we’d never do anything

Stuff is going to happen. There was a time where they’d almost completely stopped making PC games because of piracy. Should we really let the fact that sometimes people are assholes dictate what we do? Or should we just deal with it when it happens?




I do agree the 75/25 split seemed a little lopsided.. but then you have to also consider that Valve would be providing all the support (even though they dont deal with support, lol), dealing with all the bitching/chargebacks/etc, and it's on their platform. You have to consider your average modder if they decided to sell on their own, what maybe if they are really popular they could sell a few hundred. But on steam it's accessed by millions of people in a centralized place so it's possible they could sell thousands instead of hundreds. Or tens of thousands. It's a MASSIVE platform so that's 90% of the job done for you. But I agree a 75% cut seems too excessive either way.

Valve had good intentions in the whole thing I think, but we know they suck at communication and it seems they kind of rushed into this without really thinking it through all the way or how people would react. I imagine this will resurface again but they will have a much better strategy and way of conveying it and people will be more on board.

Quote:

Cj-B said:
Honestly the part about it that pissed me off was the sheer impossiblity of actually extensively modding using a pay per mod system. It took me days to sort out my Skyrim mods cuz I wound up having like 90 of them. Testing and troubleshooting to see what works and what totally breaks my shit would wind up effectively wasting a hefty chunk of money being forced to buy every (or even just the higher tier of mods that everyone uses) mod regardless of whether they work or not. Otherwise I don't have much issue with modders making some cash from their efforts...though 75/25 in favor of Valve/Game Dev over the modder seems a bit lopsided.




On that same token, there's a much better chance if you are paying for a popular mod, that it's going to work properly and there will be a higher level of support or known incompatibilities/conflicts with other mods, than there would be if you were using a free mod. Simply because of the fact that people who are getting something back for their time and work, will usually put even more effort into supporting/improving it when they are getting compensated. When you are tirelessly working on something for free, more lucrative opportunities come along and eat up your time.


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa


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Re: Steam's new Pay-Per-Mod system [Re: Shroomism]
    #21608009 - 04/28/15 10:01 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Right on.  I'm cool with it all.  I think it will be good for the guys that put the time in to tweaking files to get cash for it.  It doesn't seem like the nexus will be loosing much and it looks like a lot of the modders will keep sharing with the community


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OfflineUzziel
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Re: Steam's new Pay-Per-Mod system [Re: Shroomism]
    #21608064 - 04/28/15 10:18 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

It just isn't practical, if you want to support a modder, just donate to them. Even if the mod is 10 bucks, they would only get 2.50 from it. Nothing. They would have to have super high prices just to get a quarter percent back to make a decent living, that means they'd have to sell at least $4,000 worth of mods in a month just to be "decent living" and that assumes you live in an area that has lower standard of living than say california.

That said, it's been pulled from steam because the model is just shit. It will not work like you think unless top modders sell tens of thousands of worth of product and can pull out quality mods all the time.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Steam's new Pay-Per-Mod system [Re: Uzziel]
    #21609534 - 04/28/15 05:00 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Being on steam, it's very likely popular modders would sell tens of thousands. If this was gog or something it would be a different story completely.
I agree though I don't think their model was fully thought out.


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