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Invisibletedias
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Re: Dualism. Justify it! [Re: zzripz]
    #21562469 - 04/18/15 07:15 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Greetings forum members.
Before I begin, I would first say that I am a supporter of dualism.

This said, I am a struggling supporter. I want, want, to support it, but evidence is highly stacked against it.

To argue for dualism is to say that there is some part of ourselves that exists beyond the boundaries of the physical neural networking of our brain. This is difficult to prove. If there is some part of us that we ourselves identify as (our consciousness), that will live on after we die, as it is separate from our physical body, then we have some explaining to do:

1. If consciousness is not physically connected to the brain, then how come I have the perceptual experience of being inside my own body? How is it that my consciousness is inside my body, and not someone else? Why is it that when i move from one room to another my consciousness carries with me? This clearly suggests it has a spatial property of connectedness to my body and brain.

2. Certain neural networks affect certain parts of our brain- We can suffer brain damage from injury, in a very specific area of the brain, and this can in turn affect our consciousness. By splitting the brain down the hemispheres we change perceptions of the world. We can locate certain neurons responsible for certain behavioral reactions, or neurons responsible for thought. If neurons can be found and held responsible for certain parts of our consciousness then surely this suggests a physical connection of our consciousness to the brain.


In order to refute my above claims, the dualist is forced to appeal to some mystical element of metaphysical, almost supernatural nature. In arguing that spatial connectedness is not an issue, the dualist must find a way to explain how something non-physical by nature can connect to something physical.
The dualist could argue that neuro-scientists are yet to discover the neurological material of conscious narrative (our ongoing perceptual experience, our imagination, our inner monologue etc), and therefore that science will not discover this because it is supernatural/metaphysical, but this seems to throw in the towel on neuro-physiology, which would seem quite irrational to do.

Dualism is defend-able, but only by making claims which seem to be based on very little evidence, as opposed to the great amount of evidence that neuroscience provides.

Unfortunately my university does not allow me to grant you access to lecture materials and readings, which makes referencing hard.
But for those interested, I would recommend the cognitive science and philosophy of mind works belonging to Gerard O'Brien and John Opie of The University of Adelaide.

Thanks for your time ~happy thoughts.


--------------------
:mushroom2:Such is Life:mushroom2:

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Offlineglimpee
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Re: Dualism. Justify it! [Re: tedias]
    #21562848 - 04/18/15 10:16 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

tedias said:
Greetings forum members.
Before I begin, I would first say that I am a supporter of dualism.

This said, I am a struggling supporter. I want, want, to support it, but evidence is highly stacked against it.

To argue for dualism is to say that there is some part of ourselves that exists beyond the boundaries of the physical neural networking of our brain. This is difficult to prove. If there is some part of us that we ourselves identify as (our consciousness), that will live on after we die, as it is separate from our physical body, then we have some explaining to do:

1. If consciousness is not physically connected to the brain, then how come I have the perceptual experience of being inside my own body? How is it that my consciousness is inside my body, and not someone else? Why is it that when i move from one room to another my consciousness carries with me? This clearly suggests it has a spatial property of connectedness to my body and brain.

2. Certain neural networks affect certain parts of our brain- We can suffer brain damage from injury, in a very specific area of the brain, and this can in turn affect our consciousness. By splitting the brain down the hemispheres we change perceptions of the world. We can locate certain neurons responsible for certain behavioral reactions, or neurons responsible for thought. If neurons can be found and held responsible for certain parts of our consciousness then surely this suggests a physical connection of our consciousness to the brain.


In order to refute my above claims, the dualist is forced to appeal to some mystical element of metaphysical, almost supernatural nature. In arguing that spatial connectedness is not an issue, the dualist must find a way to explain how something non-physical by nature can connect to something physical.
The dualist could argue that neuro-scientists are yet to discover the neurological material of conscious narrative (our ongoing perceptual experience, our imagination, our inner monologue etc), and therefore that science will not discover this because it is supernatural/metaphysical, but this seems to throw in the towel on neuro-physiology, which would seem quite irrational to do.

Dualism is defend-able, but only by making claims which seem to be based on very little evidence, as opposed to the great amount of evidence that neuroscience provides.

Unfortunately my university does not allow me to grant you access to lecture materials and readings, which makes referencing hard.
But for those interested, I would recommend the cognitive science and philosophy of mind works belonging to Gerard O'Brien and John Opie of The University of Adelaide.

Thanks for your time ~happy thoughts.




Out of body experience?


--------------------
Just because I am arrogant does not mean I forget my place. It is how I choose to talk. I am not a monk. I am my own path, and I am without influence. Talk to me about my core being before you question my mental stability or life-choices. Chances are, they're only shocking to you because they don't fit your idea of what is.




Check out my Art Journal for some stuff I do http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21647069

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Invisibletedias
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Loc: Adelaide, South Australia Flag
Re: Dualism. Justify it! [Re: glimpee]
    #21566107 - 04/19/15 12:36 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Are you saying that out of body experiences are evidence for dualism? (not being condescending here, just making sure I've interpretted you correctly).

I think that out of body experiences could be justified through examination of neural networks responsible for triggering hallucinations/illusions. As for cases/anomalies where someone sees things outside that did genuinely happen, despite their not naturally having a view of it from their hospital bed, then I would say it is a rather interesting phenomena. It's not one I can explain, and they may be genuine, but they may also be faux.

Also, when the brain undergoes an intense experience, it tries to justify it internally, and we can often construct memories that suit what we think. (eg. witnesses in court cases who after months of hearing different things their memory of the event changes and their testimony becomes flawed). Another example of this could be found in psychedelics. When I've done DMT, I've seen extraordinary vivid things, which a few hours after tripping have been categorised in my memory. I can't really describe what happened, so I say "I saw an orb of energy in a hall", rather than fully describing the experience. Then after saying that's what i saw, my brain eventually categorises that memory as that. This is why we often 'forget' the feelings/visuals of tripping, or fail to describe them wholly.

Potentially, a cause for out of body experiences could come from an unnatural release of the natural source of DMT we have in our brains.
Now, whether the DMT experience in itself is simply a result of neurons and chemicals, or whether it is something deeply spiritual, is a different question. (remember- I believe it does, and i believe in dualism, I'm just playing devils advocate here).

I'd love to be able to justify dualism- every fibre of me does, and wants to believe it. But I can't come up with as sound arguments for dualism than i can against it.

Hopefully that response is helpful.


--------------------
:mushroom2:Such is Life:mushroom2:

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Offlinezzripz
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Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
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Re: Dualism. Justify it! [Re: tedias]
    #21566340 - 04/19/15 04:19 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Racist thinking like this thrives within the New Age movement David Spangler, the American guru at Findhorn in the early 70's, was an admirer of Alice Bailey's teachings, and wrote of how we are to overcome the ancient shamanic (lunar/female/Goddess) mind which hears the voices of Nature. According to him it is with the "Aryan mind" that human mental powers came into their own and brought the Masters into being. This "Aryan mind" is the alienated dualistic onlooker consciousness of Western patriarchy which has set about dominating and destroying the Earth, turning Her from a biosphere into a technosphere. source



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Offlineglimpee
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Re: Dualism. Justify it! [Re: tedias]
    #21570929 - 04/20/15 09:10 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

tedias said:
Are you saying that out of body experiences are evidence for dualism? (not being condescending here, just making sure I've interpretted you correctly).

I think that out of body experiences could be justified through examination of neural networks responsible for triggering hallucinations/illusions. As for cases/anomalies where someone sees things outside that did genuinely happen, despite their not naturally having a view of it from their hospital bed, then I would say it is a rather interesting phenomena. It's not one I can explain, and they may be genuine, but they may also be faux.

Also, when the brain undergoes an intense experience, it tries to justify it internally, and we can often construct memories that suit what we think. (eg. witnesses in court cases who after months of hearing different things their memory of the event changes and their testimony becomes flawed). Another example of this could be found in psychedelics. When I've done DMT, I've seen extraordinary vivid things, which a few hours after tripping have been categorised in my memory. I can't really describe what happened, so I say "I saw an orb of energy in a hall", rather than fully describing the experience. Then after saying that's what i saw, my brain eventually categorises that memory as that. This is why we often 'forget' the feelings/visuals of tripping, or fail to describe them wholly.

Potentially, a cause for out of body experiences could come from an unnatural release of the natural source of DMT we have in our brains.
Now, whether the DMT experience in itself is simply a result of neurons and chemicals, or whether it is something deeply spiritual, is a different question. (remember- I believe it does, and i believe in dualism, I'm just playing devils advocate here).

I'd love to be able to justify dualism- every fibre of me does, and wants to believe it. But I can't come up with as sound arguments for dualism than i can against it.

Hopefully that response is helpful.




The Out of Body experience goes against what you said about the soul being bound to your body - or it may support it even more. I forget exactly what you said and why I said it


--------------------
Just because I am arrogant does not mean I forget my place. It is how I choose to talk. I am not a monk. I am my own path, and I am without influence. Talk to me about my core being before you question my mental stability or life-choices. Chances are, they're only shocking to you because they don't fit your idea of what is.




Check out my Art Journal for some stuff I do http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21647069

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InvisibleTropism
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Registered: 09/12/09
Posts: 2,039
Re: Dualism. Justify it! [Re: tedias]
    #21571013 - 04/20/15 09:40 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Potentially, a cause for out of body experiences could come from an unnatural release of the natural source of DMT we have in our brains.
Now, whether the DMT experience in itself is simply a result of neurons and chemicals, or whether it is something deeply spiritual, is a different question. (remember- I believe it does, and i believe in dualism, I'm just playing devils advocate here).

I'd love to be able to justify dualism- every fibre of me does, and wants to believe it. But I can't come up with as sound arguments for dualism than i can against it.

Hopefully that response is helpful.





Was going to post, realized you already did it quite the justice. :thumbup:

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Invisibletedias
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Re: Dualism. Justify it! [Re: Tropism]
    #21573826 - 04/20/15 10:25 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Cheers buddy :smile:

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OfflineArenis
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Registered: 12/02/14
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Re: Dualism. Justify it! [Re: tedias]
    #21588542 - 04/23/15 11:40 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Oobe is easily explained by lucid dreaming. Easily. Cant do so on scientific level though


--------------------
Your existence is more important than mine, because you actually care about it.

Anyone with experience in psychiatry please pm me if you have some spare time.

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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Dualism. Justify it! [Re: Arenis]
    #21588860 - 04/24/15 02:32 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Arenis said:
Oobe is easily explained by lucid dreaming. Easily. Cant do so on scientific level though





No it is not. I have had both and I can tell you that the OBEs I experienced were not like lucid dreaming and felt as real as me typing now though I was out of my physical body. I saw myself/body sleeping and on either side were two human-looking entities

You cannot just reduce this mystery by claiming ALL OBE is the same as ALL lucid dreaming

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OfflineArenis
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Re: Dualism. Justify it! [Re: zzripz]
    #21588927 - 04/24/15 03:11 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

Arenis said:
Oobe is easily explained by lucid dreaming. Easily. Cant do so on scientific level though





No it is not. I have had both and I can tell you that the OBEs I experienced were not like lucid dreaming and felt as real as me typing now though I was out of my physical body. I saw myself/body sleeping and on either side were two human-looking entities

You cannot just reduce this mystery by claiming ALL OBE is the same as ALL lucid dreaming




Are you saying early expectations and knowledge about oobe cannot create a lucid dream that looks similar?


--------------------
Your existence is more important than mine, because you actually care about it.

Anyone with experience in psychiatry please pm me if you have some spare time.

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Offlinezzripz
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Posts: 8,292
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Re: Dualism. Justify it! [Re: Arenis]
    #21589305 - 04/24/15 07:51 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Arenis said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

Arenis said:
Oobe is easily explained by lucid dreaming. Easily. Cant do so on scientific level though





No it is not. I have had both and I can tell you that the OBEs I experienced were not like lucid dreaming and felt as real as me typing now though I was out of my physical body. I saw myself/body sleeping and on either side were two human-looking entities

You cannot just reduce this mystery by claiming ALL OBE is the same as ALL lucid dreaming




Are you saying early expectations and knowledge about oobe cannot create a lucid dream that looks similar?




I am curious

have you had experience of lucid dreaming?

have you had an OBE?

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OfflineArenis
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Re: Dualism. Justify it! [Re: zzripz]
    #21589921 - 04/24/15 10:08 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

Arenis said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

Arenis said:
Oobe is easily explained by lucid dreaming. Easily. Cant do so on scientific level though





No it is not. I have had both and I can tell you that the OBEs I experienced were not like lucid dreaming and felt as real as me typing now though I was out of my physical body. I saw myself/body sleeping and on either side were two human-looking entities

You cannot just reduce this mystery by claiming ALL OBE is the same as ALL lucid dreaming




Are you saying early expectations and knowledge about oobe cannot create a lucid dream that looks similar?




I am curious

have you had experience of lucid dreaming?

have you had an OBE?




I am a very experienced lucid dreamer, can induce it in 20-60min during any time of the day. I still forget some because i stopped my journal.

I had a ld about oobe, that is why i commented that. Also i saw one of those guided youtube videos with ld and oobe in one video, supposedly if you fall asleep you ld if you dont you oobe...

Sir, you did not answer my question though. Do you think expectations cant induce something like that?

Ps : i always ended up lding while trying to obe


--------------------
Your existence is more important than mine, because you actually care about it.

Anyone with experience in psychiatry please pm me if you have some spare time.

Edited by Arenis (04/24/15 10:10 AM)

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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Dualism. Justify it! [Re: Arenis]
    #21590124 - 04/24/15 11:11 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

I have a dream journal and I DID have a ld about an OBE. I was dreaming I was walking by my home and near the door. Here it is:

Quote:

7/4/14 ~ I had a vague wisp of a memory of 'dreaming'. I had an OBE or NDE experience.
So in my morning walk going across a field suddenly I remember part of it and it's "WO" thang. I remember consciously coming out of my body and next I am walking near back door of house and say " You can fly" and I began flying above the ground.



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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Dualism. Justify it! [Re: zzripz]
    #21590167 - 04/24/15 11:26 AM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

(1)(i) Those who believe in the existence of a mind which supervenes upon or is independent to the body, how can you justify your belief in the mind whilst harmonising it with our rigid, testable physical reality? (ii) If you wish to elaborate, where do the spirit or the third eye or alternate planes of reality exist?




The mental universe supervenes upon the physical universe in that the physical worlds rigid laws are ultimately mental laws. The laws of physics are really mental laws or laws of perception. We do not have access to these laws because they are beyond our consciousness and are in the universal consciousness. Its not like the secret where the individual "creates his own reality" instead the reality is created in the universal perceiver (God) and the individual mind finds himself within that creation, within time and causality.

Quote:

Greetings forum members.
Before I begin, I would first say that I am a supporter of dualism.

This said, I am a struggling supporter. I want, want, to support it, but evidence is highly stacked against it.

To argue for dualism is to say that there is some part of ourselves that exists beyond the boundaries of the physical neural networking of our brain. This is difficult to prove. If there is some part of us that we ourselves identify as (our consciousness), that will live on after we die, as it is separate from our physical body, then we have some explaining to do:

1. If consciousness is not physically connected to the brain, then how come I have the perceptual experience of being inside my own body? How is it that my consciousness is inside my body, and not someone else? Why is it that when i move from one room to another my consciousness carries with me? This clearly suggests it has a spatial property of connectedness to my body and brain.

2. Certain neural networks affect certain parts of our brain- We can suffer brain damage from injury, in a very specific area of the brain, and this can in turn affect our consciousness. By splitting the brain down the hemispheres we change perceptions of the world. We can locate certain neurons responsible for certain behavioral reactions, or neurons responsible for thought. If neurons can be found and held responsible for certain parts of our consciousness then surely this suggests a physical connection of our consciousness to the brain.


In order to refute my above claims, the dualist is forced to appeal to some mystical element of metaphysical, almost supernatural nature. In arguing that spatial connectedness is not an issue, the dualist must find a way to explain how something non-physical by nature can connect to something physical.
The dualist could argue that neuro-scientists are yet to discover the neurological material of conscious narrative (our ongoing perceptual experience, our imagination, our inner monologue etc), and therefore that science will not discover this because it is supernatural/metaphysical, but this seems to throw in the towel on neuro-physiology, which would seem quite irrational to do.

Dualism is defend-able, but only by making claims which seem to be based on very little evidence, as opposed to the great amount of evidence that neuroscience provides.

Unfortunately my university does not allow me to grant you access to lecture materials and readings, which makes referencing hard.
But for those interested, I would recommend the cognitive science and philosophy of mind works belonging to Gerard O'Brien and John Opie of The University of Adelaide.

Thanks for your time ~happy thoughts.




You only seem to have acknowledging materialism and dualism when IMO the truth is Idealism. All that exists in mental/perceptual and the material universe is an effect of this and is therefore and illusion. There is no problem of how the material interacts with the non-material from this perspective because there really is no two different substances there is only the mental substance. Also there is no hard problem of consciousness because the brain does not produce consciousness and nothing material produces consciousness it is the other way around.

It is so often that people discuss materialism vs dualism and have never even considered Idealism. I think this is because the idea that matter is an illusion is almost just too much to comprehend for the average material minded person of the day. The idea that the world is an illusion may be too much for some people to grok or it is so foreign that it never occurs to the individual unless he studies philosophy.


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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OfflineRennHuhn
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Re: Dualism. Justify it! [Re: dubbies_lament] * 1
    #21599061 - 04/26/15 12:52 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

dubbies_lament said:
I have noticed a lot of members of this forum make reference to the spirit when discussing psychedelic experience. This has left me with a couple of questions for you all:

(1)(i) Those who believe in the existence of a mind which supervenes upon or is independent to the body, how can you justify your belief in the mind whilst harmonising it with our rigid, testable physical reality? (ii) If you wish to elaborate, where do the spirit or the third eye or alternate planes of reality exist?






As long as there is true randomness in physics spirit fits into  physics just fine. Maybe spirit or consciousness results out of a quantum computer, and every seemingly truly random state change is only our consciousness exercising free will.

Or maybe consciousness is just a law of nature, just like the speed of light.

Edited by RennHuhn (04/26/15 12:54 PM)

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Invisibletedias
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Re: Dualism. Justify it! [Re: soldatheero]
    #21601923 - 04/26/15 11:08 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

soldatheero said:


You only seem to have acknowledging materialism and dualism when IMO the truth is Idealism. All that exists in mental/perceptual and the material universe is an effect of this and is therefore and illusion. There is no problem of how the material interacts with the non-material from this perspective because there really is no two different substances there is only the mental substance. Also there is no hard problem of consciousness because the brain does not produce consciousness and nothing material produces consciousness it is the other way around.

It is so often that people discuss materialism vs dualism and have never even considered Idealism. I think this is because the idea that matter is an illusion is almost just too much to comprehend for the average material minded person of the day. The idea that the world is an illusion may be too much for some people to grok or it is so foreign that it never occurs to the individual unless he studies philosophy.




I only acknowledged materialism and dualism because idealism is so hugely fundamentally flawed I saw no reason to include it.
Sure, it's a possibility, sure you can't disprove it.
But you also can't disprove that 56 million years ago there was a dinosaur that wore a top hat and shouter "JEEVES" for no reason. Being unable to disprove something is a flaw, not a strength, as it means it fundamentally relies on assuming things that inherently cannot be proven.

You claim that reality as an illusion is "too much to comprehend". I garuntee you that is not the case. We've all seen the Matrix, we all know of the brain in the jar theory. Yes, our perceptions of reality are a construct of sensory signals, and is ultimately mentally subjective, but that is not what idealism is about. We don't reject idealism because we're too incompetant to understand it, we reject idealism because it is highly unlikely, benefits nothing to scientific progression, and as a general rule goes against commonsense-psychology. More importantly, there are just better, well equipt theories with much much more evidence to back them.

^finally, idealism can explain the difference between mental/physical stuff, which is all well and good. But if you cannot prove idealism itself to be a likely possibility of our reality, then idealism is not a very good answer.

I don't mean to sound so aggressive, but I feel that you have overstepped in sounding so condescending on people for not believing in a highly implausible theory.

As always, I welcome debate and discussion, so if you can come up with an argument for idealism that is better than "because you can't disprove it" I'll be happy to engage.


--------------------
:mushroom2:Such is Life:mushroom2:

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