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OfflineFrog
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ADHD and Meditation
    #2160185 - 12/05/03 02:44 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

My friend and I were discussing whether meditation "helps" the brains of ADHD individuals.

I am ADHD. I can't stand the thought of sitting still long enough to soak in a hot tub, much less sit and meditate.

So we were wondering, because of the discussions here on meditation, whether anyone here is ADHD, and if so, have you tried meditation specifically to alleviate the symptoms of ADHD.

Or even if you haven't used meditation to alleviate the symptoms, maybe you've used meditation for another reason in relation to ADHD, to accomplish something else with regard to being ADHD.

My main reason for posting this question is because I'm wondering if I am missing out on something by not learning to meditate. Could my brain work better, as an ADHD brain, if I meditated.

For the purposes of this discussion, let's pretend ADHD exists.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Re: ADHD and Meditation [Re: Frog]
    #2160198 - 12/05/03 02:46 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

A very good quote from Radioactiveslug, on ADD, ADHD, etc

Quote:

RadioActiveSlug said:

Its a bunch BS, its a made up thing.
It has to do with your brain developing. Since kids are brought up on TV, video games, and computers their brains develop differently than those who weren't. They have shorter attention spans. People with ADD apparently can process lots of data much quicker than those without, but take data in at a slower rate.

Its only called a disorder because those who made up the name, didn't have it, but what it really is, is just humans forming a symbiosis with their digital enviorment.

Is really sad, they have all kinds of drugs to make the brain NOT work the way it was developed to so that kids can continue to be uniformly educated like in the past. These drugs (ritalin, adderall(sp?), etc have terrible side effects (i should know)




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OfflineFrog
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Re: ADHD and Meditation [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2160229 - 12/05/03 02:55 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
A very good quote from Radioactiveslug, on ADD, ADHD, etc

Quote:

RadioActiveSlug said:

Its a bunch BS, its a made up thing.
It has to do with your brain developing. Since kids are brought up on TV, video games, and computers their brains develop differently than those who weren't. They have shorter attention spans. People with ADD apparently can process lots of data much quicker than those without, but take data in at a slower rate.

Its only called a disorder because those who made up the name, didn't have it, but what it really is, is just humans forming a symbiosis with their digital enviorment.

Is really sad, they have all kinds of drugs to make the brain NOT work the way it was developed to so that kids can continue to be uniformly educated like in the past. These drugs (ritalin, adderall(sp?), etc have terrible side effects (i should know)







1. I was not raised on T.V., computer games, etc. I was born in 1958. And process data at a slower rate??? Ha! I can read an inch-thick file in five minutes and remember every single thing I read and immediately go into a court room and win a trial based on what I read.

2. I agree it shouldn't be called a disorder or a deficit. It's a gift. I'm a phucking genius at law. Disordered? Bullschitt!

3. I also agree that kids shouldn't be medicated. Instead of spending money on drugs, we should spend money on educating kids who have ADHD the way they should be educated. Whichever way that is, it shouldn't be the way "normal" kids are educated.

As an adult, however, I use drugs to make my brain work better, not differently. That phucking phog.

But with the hope of becoming elucidated, has anyone tried meditation specifically because of being ADHD??


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflinePositronius
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Re: ADHD and Meditation [Re: Frog]
    #2160238 - 12/05/03 02:58 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

just force yourself to concentrate, concentration is not an ability you are born with, it is an ability you must develop. It takes work, like push-ups or sit-ups.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: ADHD and Meditation [Re: Positronius]
    #2160265 - 12/05/03 03:05 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Positronius said:
just force yourself to concentrate, concentration is not an ability you are born with, it is an ability you must develop. It takes work, like push-ups or sit-ups.




Thank you, but I'm not trying to learn how to meditate, unless it would somehow be helpful to being ADHD. I'm not even thinking that it WILL be helpful. To my my mind, meditating is the most boring thing I could ever think of doing. But then again, I'm thinking, "what if it helped my brain to function better?" So, if I am missing out on something that would be good for my brain, I would like to know about it.

Bottom line: I'm not going to force myself to concentrate unless there's a good reason to do that.


--------------------
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OfflinePedM
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Re: ADHD and Meditation [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2160272 - 12/05/03 03:06 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Assuming ADHD is a legitimate disorder, the problem is with concentration. Meditation can greatly improve concentration. By extension, meditation must then benefit those suffering with ADHD.

Some may disagree, because ADHD is considered to be a neurological disorder. How can we negotiate with our neurotransmitters without introducing neurotransmitters of our own? I would answer that there is not any necessity to the introduction of external elements in manipulating our biology. We are the amalgamation of responses to our environment. If I am depressed because my parents perished in a terrible accident, chances are my brain is not swimming in serotonin. No doctor would remedy this kind of depression with a pill. Yet if no such obvious connection exists, a pill will be prescribed without any considerable analysis of the situation giving rise to feelings of depression.

The epidemic of depression in the West to me suggests that we are being directed to examine the mechanics of our culture. But that is way off topic.

Meditation is an experience like any other. With effort, meditation can be a prolonged experience which can have very lasting impacts on our neurophysiology. There have been many studies which have suggested a unique neurological make-up specific to advanced Tibetan meditators.

If you decide to try meditation to improve your condition, be warned that even those not suffering with ADHD find it very difficult when they are first beginning to meditate. As beginners, we find that we are unable to sit still and concentrate, and become quickly discouraged. It is only through much perserverance that a meditator can overcome this first obstacle. I would imagine that this obstacle would be ten fold for an individual bound by ADHD. Do not be discouraged! It will be an enormous triumph if you conquer this disorder through meditation -- a living testimony to greedy pharmaceutical companies everywhere!


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OfflineFrog
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Re: ADHD and Meditation [Re: Ped]
    #2160359 - 12/05/03 03:40 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Ped: If I am depressed because my parents perished in a terrible accident, chances are my brain is not swimming in serotonin. No doctor would remedy this kind of depression with a pill. Yet if no such obvious connection exists, a pill will be prescribed without any considerable analysis of the situation giving rise to feelings of depression.




I agree that there are many conditions the symptoms of which can imitate the symptoms of ADHD. I found a web site that said there are 50 conditions that can imitate ADHD symptoms.

Quote:

Ped: Meditation is an experience like any other. With effort, meditation can be a prolonged experience which can have very lasting impacts on our neurophysiology. There have been many studies which have suggested a unique neurological make-up specific to advanced Tibetan meditators.




But, the $64,000 question is: How does it affect ADHD???

Quote:

Ped: If you decide to try meditation to improve your condition, be warned that even those not suffering with ADHD find it very difficult when they are first beginning to meditate. As beginners, we find that we are unable to sit still and concentrate, and become quickly discouraged. It is only through much perserverance that a meditator can overcome this first obstacle. I would imagine that this obstacle would be ten fold for an individual bound by ADHD. Do not be discouraged! It will be an enormous triumph if you conquer this disorder through meditation -- a living testimony to greedy pharmaceutical companies everywhere!




I would not be discouraged if I heard from someone who was ADHD that had tried it.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlinejiva
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Re: ADHD and Meditation [Re: Ped]
    #2160365 - 12/05/03 03:43 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

I was/am ADD diagnosed. My thoughts were constantly speeding from subject to subject.

All I could do was force myself to concentrate. If you can't force yourself to do something then you don't want to try hard enough.

It's really hard at first, and my mind is still fairly cluttered. The stillness grows little by little, but its worth it. It's definately worth it.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: ADHD and Meditation [Re: jiva]
    #2160368 - 12/05/03 03:44 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Why is it worth it?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlinejiva
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Re: ADHD and Meditation [Re: Frog]
    #2160384 - 12/05/03 03:49 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

When your mind quiets down, you realize you can perceive many other things that you were just drowning out before. The denser your beta waves, the more you're drowning out other possibilities.

That and the loss of tension, anxiety, and fear, the added observation done on yourself, a base level of contentment and calmness and the taming of unconscious action.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: ADHD and Meditation [Re: jiva]
    #2160406 - 12/05/03 03:54 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

When your mind quiets down, you realize you can perceive many other things that you were just drowning out before.




Okay, that's the kind of thing I like to hear. Thoughts (for an ADHDer just go and go and go...) are a constant noise. They probably DO block things you could be thinking if you weren't having so many thoughts about other things. Hmmmm. Get back to me on that sentence.

Quote:

That and the loss of tension, anxiety, and fear, the added observation done on yourself, a base level of contentment and calmness and the taming of unconscious action.




And the "tension, anxiety, and fear, the added observation done on yourself" often accompanies the ADHDers mindset, and if you can calm that, you can achieve...um, er, nirvana???


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflinePedM
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Re: ADHD and Meditation [Re: Frog]
    #2160422 - 12/05/03 04:01 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Overcoming phenomenon like rushing, uncontrollable thoughts is the first objective of any beginning meditator. In meditation retreat earlier this year, through the guided practice of Mahamudra, I was fortunate enough to experience a complete and total cessation of thought. I had gained experience of "subtle thought", which is entirely different than conventional thought. Anyone can accomplish this.

My personal opinion is that a sustained effort will bring relief, or complete cessation of ADHD symptoms. Though, it is an effort which will demand a tremendous amount of patience and perserverance.



--------------------


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Offlinejiva
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Re: ADHD and Meditation [Re: Frog]
    #2160424 - 12/05/03 04:03 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

peace. calmness. tranquility.

you begin to listen to your body and it interpret its signals more precisely.

you feel more subtle things... puts you more in touch with your energetic/astral body

you begin to actually listen to people w/o thinking of what you're gonna say next or how you can relate to what they're saying.

you notice subtle interactions between people, and their unconscious actions more

you can communicate with animals and children better

you are altert and ready for sudden things rather than them catching you by surprise and scaring the bajesus out of you

and it prepares you for all kinds of spiritual and psychic paths you may wish to persue


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OfflineFrog
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Re: ADHD and Meditation [Re: Ped]
    #2160430 - 12/05/03 04:08 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
Overcoming phenomenon like rushing, uncontrollable thoughts is the first objective of any beginning meditator. In meditation retreat earlier this year, through the guided practice of Mahamudra, I was fortunate enough to experience a complete and total cessation of thought. I had gained experience of "subtle thought", which is entirely different than conventional thought. Anyone can accomplish this.

My personal opinion is that a sustained effort will bring relief, or complete cessation of ADHD symptoms. Though, it is an effort which will demand a tremendous amount of patience and perserverance.






Ped, please first understand that I appreciate that you took the time to respond to me. Second, before I embark on a journey of this sort, I need to know that anyone who tried it and was successful was "like me".

Ped, I am extremely ADHD. It is genetic in my family. I know for certain that it is not a result of the 50 other possible conditions that can cause ADHD symptoms.

So, please, tell me, are you sure that you are truly "ADHD"? The real ADHD. While I am appreciative of our time, I just don't want to waste my time, meditating, if it ain't going to help.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineFrog
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Re: ADHD and Meditation [Re: jiva]
    #2160431 - 12/05/03 04:10 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Jiva, I appreciate what you wrote. What you wrote almost makes me feel like I should meditate regardless of whether it alleviates the ADHD symptoms, except that I hate sitting still!!!


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlinejiva
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Re: ADHD and Meditation [Re: Frog]
    #2160448 - 12/05/03 04:22 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Patience is the harddest lesson.

But YOU MIND IS YOU. YOU ARE YOUR MIND. And you have complete authority over yourself. Just like you can relax your muscles by letting them go, you can relax your mind by letting it go. You can even control your breath and your heart beat.

Often times this starts with concentration on breathing or staring at an object. Perhaps focusing on trying to see auras or regulate your breathing.

I promise you this, if you learn the disciplines of patience and self control, your life will transform dramatically.

Mine has and is and every day I uncover new levels of awareness, but it's moving slowly enough that I remain grounded. It's all so beautiful... I love.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: ADHD and Meditation [Re: jiva]
    #2160466 - 12/05/03 04:39 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Thank you, Jiva. I guess that would work for anyone, regardless of from where they're ADHD derives.

But still, just out of curiosity, do you have "true" ADHD? I know, probably a stupid question.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineFrog
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Re: ADHD and Meditation [Re: Frog]
    #2160480 - 12/05/03 04:51 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Ped:
Assuming ADHD is a legitimate disorder




Well, it's a legitimate disorder according to the DSM, whichever version you want to cite.

For the purposes of this discussion, can't we all agree that there are are certain behavioral characteristics that equate ADHD?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlineeve69
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Re: ADHD and Meditation [Re: Frog]
    #2160571 - 12/05/03 06:23 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

You know, anyone who can think a thought can also meditate, but I would suggest a very systematic meditation like TM which is meant to be effortless and for the masses. This way you can get some support for it and they also have group meditations which for sure help one focus.

I think that the key is to find a meditation which focuses on bliss, because only a happy feeling will pull your mind into the state of concentration.

I don't have any stats on the effects of meditation on ADHD, but I would assume that it wouldn't hurt any. Also, one can maditate on their medication. And then over time the medication seems less needed.

It can't hurt to try anyway.


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OfflinePedM
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Re: ADHD and Meditation [Re: Frog]
    #2161278 - 12/05/03 01:58 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Frog --

I understand. There is no doubt in my mind that there are neurological conditions which can arise and can be passed genetically which lead to states of extremely poor concentration, ADHD.

It is very likely that instead of ADHD being a completely fabricated illness, that it is an overblown and over-diagnosed illness which has ushered our children into a category of amphetamine and methylphenidate users. More often than not, those prescribed medications to treat ADHD symptoms simply need to decrease their sugar intake, reduce their time on the Playstation, and take a long walk. I did not mean to suggest that you were one of these people.

After just six weeks [daily meditation practice], 16 children with ADHD all showed a marked improvement, though only some reduced or stopped their medication. http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/s499180.htm

http://www.health24.co.za/natural/Natural_approach/17-663,22564.asp

http://borntoexplore.org/meditation.htm



--------------------


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