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Offlinetwighead
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Re: If Stalin or Mao killed more people than Hitler, why is Hitler considered the worst? [Re: trekie]
    #21590948 - 04/24/15 03:05 PM (9 years, 26 days ago)

While I agree that the pact had a big part to play in the invasion even happening, I don't think numbers were much of a consideration (infact sources I've found suggest 1.5 million germans invading vs ~1 million (600,000 deployed) Polish) Germany was vastly superior in both military theory and technology - the luftwaffe easily crushed Poland's outdated and small airforce.  On the ground, the polish army - while large to the order of a million men - was practically unprepared and wasn't mobilized when the German army invaded, of whom sent 2,500 state of the art tanks into Poland, who only had 700 of their own, many of which were outdated and couldn't even pierce the German armor. :shrug:


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OfflineTaco Chef
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Re: If Stalin or Mao killed more people than Hitler, why is Hitler considered the worst? [Re: trekie]
    #21590963 - 04/24/15 03:08 PM (9 years, 26 days ago)

what do you mean by uncle joe partioning eastern europe?  have you not read the rather well documented studies of hitler's long dream for libensraum in the east, or his feelings about cslovokia?  maybe i'm reading your post wrong.

and italy invaded eithopia even earlier.  but niether of those two events would have caused world war II.  germany's invasion of poland after poland singed defense packs with france and england did.


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Invisibletrekie
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Re: If Stalin or Mao killed more people than Hitler, why is Hitler considered the worst? [Re: twighead]
    #21590973 - 04/24/15 03:11 PM (9 years, 26 days ago)

Oh yeah that also . I am thinking of the allied forces in Europe. Germany pretty much switched to a war economy as soon as they could . When Hitler started to take power they had pretty much no air force and a very limited army.

Oh I know about Hitler's dream for all of Slavic nations. What I am talking about is parts of Poland that was handed over to the Russian that and Germany agreement not to invade The Baltic nations.

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Offlinetwighead
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Re: If Stalin or Mao killed more people than Hitler, why is Hitler considered the worst? [Re: Taco Chef]
    #21590984 - 04/24/15 03:13 PM (9 years, 26 days ago)

Well, the ribbentrop-moletov pact made sure the soviets; the most likely to react in event of a polish invasion in the mind of Hitler, would not react with hostility when the events occurred, and would be neutral until Hitler decided so. Hitler didn't necessarily believe the west would declare war when he invaded Poland.


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Invisibletrekie
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Re: If Stalin or Mao killed more people than Hitler, why is Hitler considered the worst? [Re: Taco Chef]
    #21590996 - 04/24/15 03:14 PM (9 years, 26 days ago)

yeah sprawling alliances were the main reason for ww1 and ww 2 . Im just saying that you can't blame it all on Germany. It is far more  complicated than that.

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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: If Stalin or Mao killed more people than Hitler, why is Hitler considered the worst? [Re: twighead]
    #21591049 - 04/24/15 03:30 PM (9 years, 26 days ago)

excerpted from Strategy Second Revised Edition 

Quote:

...The mobility and flexibility of mechanized forces endowed the indirect approach with greater potentialities.
    Poland, to her misfortune, provided an ideal demonstration site for the combination. Her frontier with Germany was 1,250 miles long, and had recently been extended a further 500 miles through the German occupation of Czechoslovakia.  This had resulted in Poland's southern flank becoming as exposed to invasion as the northern flank facing East Prussia.  Western Poland thus formed a vast salient between Germany's two jaws. 
    The risks were increased by the way that the Polish forces were deployed, the bulk of them being far forward in the salient. The natural desire to cover Poland's main industrial area, which lay west of the Vistula, was dangerously buttressed by national pride, and military over-confidence.
    The Polish army at peace strength was as large as the French and not much smaller than the German.  It comprised 30 infantry divisions, and 12 cavalry brigades. But Poland's industrial resources were insufficient to make full use of her man-power, or even furnish and adequate scale of equipment for her active forces.  On mobilization she could only increase her number of divisions by a third, whereas Germany could more than double hers, except for the armoured and motorized ones-but this limitation on Germany's side was offset by Poland's almost complete lack of such modern type forces.
    That was the more serious because the Polish plain offered flat and easy going for a mobile invader-though not so easy as France would offer, because of the scarcity of good roads in Poland, the deep sand often met off the roads, and the frequency of lakes and forests in some areas. But the time chosen for the invasion minimized these drawbacks...




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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: If Stalin or Mao killed more people than Hitler, why is Hitler considered the worst? [Re: twighead]
    #21591107 - 04/24/15 03:43 PM (9 years, 26 days ago)

excerpted from Strategy Second Revised Edition

Quote:

Hitler had always planned, as Rauschning shows, to direct his surprise strokes against weak or isolated countries while throwing on his opponents' shoulders the main burden of attack...

...in such circumstances his principles of strategy obviously pointed to an immediate attempt to make a pact with Russia that would ensure her detachment.

If the Allies declared war in fulfilment of their obligations they would automatically forfeit the advantages of defense and be committed to an inherently offensive strategy-without the necessary resources and under the most unfavourable conditions.




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Edited by ballsalsa (04/24/15 03:47 PM)

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: If Stalin or Mao killed more people than Hitler, why is Hitler considered the worst? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21596685 - 04/25/15 08:11 PM (9 years, 25 days ago)

Hilter wasn't near as bad as they try to say. Not as bad as stalin. If you count the people who starved to death because he took their food, firewood, and clothing, he killed perhaps 100 mill. Hitler didn't come close to that. Hitler compared to stalin is like obumble compared to hitler. Not as bad.


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Offlinetwighead
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Re: If Stalin or Mao killed more people than Hitler, why is Hitler considered the worst? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21596718 - 04/25/15 08:19 PM (9 years, 25 days ago)

:lol: They're quite comparatively bad within their means. It's a moot point really.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: If Stalin or Mao killed more people than Hitler, why is Hitler considered the worst? [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #21596830 - 04/25/15 08:53 PM (9 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Hitler compared to stalin is like obumble compared to hitler. Not as bad.




obama somehow makes it into the ranks of hitler, stalin and mao...:thisisterrible:


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OfflineWebster10
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Re: If Stalin or Mao killed more people than Hitler, why is Hitler considered the worst? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21596841 - 04/25/15 08:57 PM (9 years, 25 days ago)

The comparison was emphasizing that obama wasn't comparable.. :facepalm:


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: If Stalin or Mao killed more people than Hitler, why is Hitler considered the worst? [Re: Webster10]
    #21596852 - 04/25/15 09:00 PM (9 years, 25 days ago)

no, it was emphasizing that he's "not as bad"
compare is the root of both comparison and comparable


p.s. i don't even like obama. i just don't think he belongs in the same conversation as hitler, mao and stalin


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Edited by ballsalsa (04/25/15 09:02 PM)

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OfflineWebster10
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Re: If Stalin or Mao killed more people than Hitler, why is Hitler considered the worst? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21596877 - 04/25/15 09:08 PM (9 years, 25 days ago)

When you're making a comparison in which someone is significantly less murderous than the other, obama is perfectly comparable to hitler. Hitler is to stalin as obama is to hitler is a logical phrase imo :shrug:


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: If Stalin or Mao killed more people than Hitler, why is Hitler considered the worst? [Re: Webster10]
    #21596910 - 04/25/15 09:15 PM (9 years, 25 days ago)

sure, but in that case one could use any example, including any person who isn't obama.  so why use obama as the reference in this case?


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: If Stalin or Mao killed more people than Hitler, why is Hitler considered the worst? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #21596974 - 04/25/15 09:28 PM (9 years, 25 days ago)

OK, settle down there ballsalsa. No one is saying obumble is as bad as hitler or stalin. Or mao for that matter. Has he done similar things, now that we are discussing it? Yes he has, just not as many. Obumble has tortured lots of people that he admits to and probably many times more that we don't hear about. He has murdered innocent people by the thousands. OK, not as many, not as bad as those others but he has done major bad things too. The average guy off the street has never killed anyone. I never killed anyone. Have you? Obumble has so many notches on his gun handle, he goes through 10 handles a month.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleEllisDSox
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Re: If Stalin or Mao killed more people than Hitler, why is Hitler considered the worst? [Re: Atreyu] * 1
    #21597021 - 04/25/15 09:41 PM (9 years, 25 days ago)

I guess the idea is that basically in the process of mass industrialisation, there are often despicable numbers of deaths and this process, of necessity, happened way, way faster and more violently in Russia and China than it did in the west. Germany on the other hand was a perfectly modernised country pursuing an expansionist foreign policy while mass murdering vast numbers of people for political reasons, rather than sacrificing a generation for the "greater good".

Stalin definitely killed huge numbers of people through intentional starvation in the Holodomor, which is a massive exception to the prior argument and has a death toll fairly close to that of the Holocaust. You could also pretty fairly deem it an ethic cleansing operation, unless you want to blame the whole thing on land collectivisation causing the famine. Similarly with Mao, there's a lot of contention around the extent to which the great famine was caused by government policy versus natural courses, although yet again in my opinion it was a conscious choice in the name of modernisation.

The Holodomor gets far too little attention and puts Stalin up there as a real contender for being even more of a fuckface than Hitler, but there's something very clear cut about the massacres perpetrated by the modern, well-equipped Germans along distinctly racist and political lines with no real goal other than wiping out "undesirables" while even the Holdomor gets lumped in with the greater famine.

Similar things happened in Spain, even, although on a far smaller scale, but I guess it's just nigh on impossible to play devil's advocate to Hitler's ultimate goal, while Stalin and Mao do have mitigating factors in their favour. Particularly the fact that they may well have been crushed by the West if they hadn't industrialised their countries as rapidly as they did. Even so, huge mistakes were made that cost tens of millions of deaths.

Some people argue Stalin really had no choice but to either concede the entire Cold War or use mass human labour to compete with the West. The issue of which of these two options is better aside, these people may well be right

None of this is really my opinion, I'm just explaining why Hitler is considered the worst in general.


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OfflineThatKidWithTheFace
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Re: If Stalin or Mao killed more people than Hitler, why is Hitler considered the worst? [Re: SirShroomsAlott]
    #21597066 - 04/25/15 09:55 PM (9 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

SirShroomsAlott said:
I've wondered this msyelf, someone once told me it was because they worked under or took orders from hitler, but I never checked the validity of it, probably a google search away



:lolwut:


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InvisibleEllisDSox
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Re: If Stalin or Mao killed more people than Hitler, why is Hitler considered the worst? [Re: EllisDSox]
    #21599334 - 04/26/15 02:01 PM (9 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

BERSERK DESTROYER said:
natural courses




:facepalm:


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: If Stalin or Mao killed more people than Hitler, why is Hitler considered the worst? [Re: EllisDSox]
    #21599524 - 04/26/15 02:46 PM (9 years, 24 days ago)

Know who's worse than Hitler, Mao AND Stalin?

Malaria.

Kill that fucker. Half the people who ever lived since the dawn of time, died of malaria.


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OfflineUzziel
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Re: If Stalin or Mao killed more people than Hitler, why is Hitler considered the worst? [Re: Atreyu]
    #21599561 - 04/26/15 02:53 PM (9 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Atreyu said:
why?





It's not hard to figure out, think about what Hitler was trying to do.

He wasn't just going to stop, he was planning on taking on the entire world for a new world order. After it was over, he would have killed the Japanese off too and anyone else not sharing the same vision (Being white essentially). He had a vision of a world in mind and he stopped at nothing to try and achieve it.

If they had found a way to continue on, that number could have been much larger than just 60 million. Think if Russia had teamed up with Germany instead of fighting against them, the Russians took the brute of the fight. We would have lost. The world would be entirely different and the massacre that would have continued on would have been in the hundreds of millions, if not more.

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