|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,513
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
People volunteer to watch all advertisements. Weak argument.
Either way, the fact that you see it one way and I see it another is precisely why there has to be a final arbiter, and that's where the system breaks and corruption has an inroad
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
|
Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
#21578396 - 04/21/15 09:47 PM (9 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Enlil said: The purpose is political rhetoric. How is that not a paid advertisement?
That is a (biased) opinion, not a fact. You don't know moore's purpose for sure any more than I do. I would say pandering to his base and above all making money is his purpose. As fal said, he is not paying people to look at it in fact they pay him. So far from being a paid ad, its a work people pay to see. Therefore there is no expenditure by the donor, moore in this case. In fact he cleans up with it.
>People volunteer to watch all advertisements. Weak argument.
Talk about non sequitors?!! there is a textbook example plus a strawman thrown in for good measure. Implies the other side's argument is that people won't watch advertisements. Weak rebuttal.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
|
Bigbadwooof
Snitterbundem The Dirty



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 14,468
Last seen: 39 minutes, 21 seconds
|
Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
#21578731 - 04/21/15 11:59 PM (9 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Enlil said: People volunteer to watch all advertisements. Weak argument.
Either way, the fact that you see it one way and I see it another is precisely why there has to be a final arbiter, and that's where the system breaks and corruption has an inroad
A Michael Moore film is classified as a Documentary Film. A GM car commercial is classified as an advertisement. There is a clear difference. In true lawyerly fashion you seam to muck things up with tedius and unnecessary details that are not part of the actual discussion. We are not on this forum to define, in such great legal detail, all of our terms of speech. The concept is easily understood, without playing these games. You know we are not all lawyers, and when it comes time to implement these things there will be plenty of options for translating the literal meaning into regulatory speak, I am sure.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell Every one of you should see this video. "Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns
 
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 8 months, 7 days
|
Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
#21578837 - 04/22/15 01:09 AM (9 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Enlil said: People volunteer to watch all advertisements. Weak argument.
If someone pays to get a message in front of people, then it's advertising. If someone wants to voluntarily take action to go watch something, like a Michael Moore movie or a Coca-Cola video on YouTube for example, then its not. Easy peasy.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
B0b0
Sage



Registered: 09/23/11
Posts: 1,343
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
|
Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#21578887 - 04/22/15 02:04 AM (9 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
The ruling on Super Pac can be summed up in this one toon.
--------------------
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 8 months, 7 days
|
Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: B0b0]
#21578905 - 04/22/15 02:22 AM (9 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
B0b0 said: The ruling on Super Pac can be summed up in this one toon.

Well done.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
Bigbadwooof
Snitterbundem The Dirty



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 14,468
Last seen: 39 minutes, 21 seconds
|
Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: B0b0]
#21578906 - 04/22/15 02:22 AM (9 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Nice cartoon 
We are all aware of this, and Enlil wouldn't even argue with that cartoon. However, we are divided on the solution. Enlil would have you believe there is no solution, and therefore nothing to be done about the current state of politics in this country. I am arguing otherwise.
Care to throw in your perspective on this situation? The problem is quite evident. The solution is obscurred in a mound of bullshit piled to the moon. Start digging.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell Every one of you should see this video. "Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns
 
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,513
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#21579408 - 04/22/15 08:08 AM (9 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: A Michael Moore film is classified as a Documentary Film. A GM car commercial is classified as an advertisement. There is a clear difference. In true lawyerly fashion you seam to muck things up with tedius and unnecessary details that are not part of the actual discussion. We are not on this forum to define, in such great legal detail, all of our terms of speech. The concept is easily understood, without playing these games. You know we are not all lawyers, and when it comes time to implement these things there will be plenty of options for translating the literal meaning into regulatory speak, I am sure.
I'm not trying to muck anything up. I'm giving you an example of how things will get mucked up. I work with the law every day. Statutes are simple. Law is complicated. For every sentence of statute, there are books of judicial decisions interpreting that statute. Those books are where the law is.
You're thinking that a statute can simply be written to solve the problem. I'm thinking about what the law will become after a few years of judicial interpretation and millions of dollars of legal fees spent to circumvent that statute.
I'm telling you that, after the lawyers have worked their magic, the law you're proposing will make the rich even more powerful and the poor even less free. Believe me or don't believe me, but that's exactly how it would work.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
|
Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil] 1
#21579753 - 04/22/15 10:00 AM (9 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
So, if it will be very hard to get everything right or impossible to make everything perfect, we should just do nothing and keep the present corrupt system in place? That goes beyond cynical all the way to being a supporter of corruption.
Sure, the weasels will work night and day to get around it. Yes, they will find some loopholes and use them but it will be better than the present system of built in loopholes that they don't even have to dream up new ways of circumventing. Since they always try to get around laws against bribery, should we throw out all those laws since they aren't working perfectly? Maybe throw out all laws of any kind?
If they find a way around new laws, we can plug up the holes until its tight.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,513
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Stonehenge]
#21579777 - 04/22/15 10:08 AM (9 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
You're missing the point, Stonehenge. I'm all for changing things for the better if we can come up with a solution. What we're talking about, however, is amending the Constitution in a way that makes the First Amendment much, much weaker than it already is. Once that happens, it becomes very hard to get that first amendment protection back.
This isn't a situation where we try something, and if it doesn't work, we try something else. Amending the constitution to weaken the first amendment is absolutely the wrong direction to go, and if we do that, there is almost zero hope that it can be undone. That's why it's vitally important that we have a solid plan before we throw away the most fundamental freedom of our society. Woof seems to be advocating that we change the constitution and then figure out the details later. That's not good enough for me.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
|
Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
#21579835 - 04/22/15 10:37 AM (9 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Now the red herring/ strawman is that we have to amend the constitution? Do you ever stop? The last campaign finance laws did not require a constitutional convention so you are grasping at straws here. A simple act of congress should do the job.
>weaken the first amendment
Giving payola in exchange for favors has been called free speech too but common sense has prevailed. No ones first amendment rights will be taken away if they can't spend millions under the table to support a candidate.
Speaking of payola, menendez the dem crook finally brought to charges gave a good performance of anger in defense of his kickbacks. Maybe it was all just free speech and coincidence? The only surprising thing is that obumble went after a dem. He probably pissed off Pelosi or someone high up. The rest of the crooks are safe for now.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,513
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Stonehenge]
#21579973 - 04/22/15 11:30 AM (9 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
It's not a strawman. What is being proposed in this thread would take a Constitutional amendment. We're not talking about campaign finance laws. We're talking about laws limiting personal expenditure of money for political speech. We already have solid campaign finance laws.
If you think it can be done without a Constitutional amendment, you're misinformed. Woof has specifically been linking a group that is working toward such a constitutional amendment.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
|
Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
#21580008 - 04/22/15 11:39 AM (9 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
>We're not talking about campaign finance laws.
Why aren't we? I see no reason why campaign finance can't include in kind expenditures. Don't forget congress holds the power, they can overrule scotus if they wish. They can designate the law as not subject to review though that would be novel, or simply overrule if scotus goes the wrong way.
As it is now, a direct cash bribe must fall within the limits and gifts even including prostitutes or mediterranean vacations are covered. Why not a gift of advertising? You people will make a bundle niggling over the details, think about it, you might decide you are in favor after all.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,513
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Stonehenge]
#21580044 - 04/22/15 11:56 AM (9 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Stonehenge said: Don't forget congress holds the power, they can overrule scotus if they wish.
Not on constitutional issues, they can't. That's the whole point.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 8 months, 7 days
|
Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
#21580141 - 04/22/15 12:33 PM (9 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Enlil said: What we're talking about, however, is amending the Constitution in a way that makes the First Amendment much, much weaker than it already is. Once that happens, it becomes very hard to get that first amendment protection back.
A constitutional amendment that says corporations aren't people would be nice. However, we're just talking about extending an existing law limiting campaign contributions to independent political expenditures. No amendment required.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,513
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Wrong. Either an amendment is required or the SCOTUS has to overturn itself.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
|
Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
#21580238 - 04/22/15 01:04 PM (9 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Stonehenge said: Don't forget congress holds the power, they can overrule scotus if they wish.
Not on constitutional issues, they can't. That's the whole point.
Now you are implying that if anyone raises a constitutional issue congress can do nothing? Is that the best you can come up with? To say that maybe scotus will overturn a law so we shouldn't even try is a pitiful argument. Of course congress can do whatever it wants. If and when scotus rules it unconstitutional, then and only then will it be a question of an amendment or perhaps overruling scotus. I'm sure you will say next congress can't do that so have your links ready.
I'm not at all convinced congress can't overturn citizens v united though some say it takes an amendment. This is all new ground to be explored.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
|
Bigbadwooof
Snitterbundem The Dirty



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 14,468
Last seen: 39 minutes, 21 seconds
|
Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
#21580421 - 04/22/15 02:21 PM (9 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Enlil said: Wrong. Either an amendment is required or the SCOTUS has to overturn itself.
The goal of Wolf PAC isn't necessarily to have a constitutional convention. It's more of a way for the people to flex their muscles, and let congress know that if they dont resolve this issue, we will.
Apathy is not the answer. If you don't have an alternative to apathy, then you have nothing of use to add to this discussion. We will no longer sit by and watch our country fall to pieces in the name of never fucking ending greed. It is disgusting, it's not what we stand for, and it won't be tolerated any longer.
We would appreciate some constructive input, as opposed to the never-ending naysaying. I am sure you have some ideas of effective methods by which this issue might be approached, and we would love to hear them. However, it is NOT acceptable the way that it is, in any way, shape, or form. It is as unacceptible as anything could be to us. We will soon be living in a country which is almost indistinguishable from medieval Europe, and that is not what we are about. This culture of greed must be challenged, before we are beyond the point of no return.
If this issue is not nipped, there will be blood.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell Every one of you should see this video. "Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns
 
|
Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
|
Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#21580454 - 04/22/15 02:33 PM (9 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
> If you don't have an alternative to apathy, then you have nothing of use to add to this discussion. We will no longer sit by and watch our country fall to pieces in the name of never fucking ending greed. It is disgusting, it's not what we stand for, and it won't be tolerated any longer.
>We would appreciate some constructive input, as opposed to the never-ending naysaying
Exactly right.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,513
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#21580523 - 04/22/15 02:56 PM (9 years, 28 days ago) |
|
|
The reality is that things are getting better. The average joe has more opportunity to get a message out than he has ever had in the past. The internet has become a great tool for people to use for that purpose, and will be increasingly more powerful as time goes on. At the same time, mainstream media and television have become less and less effective.
The times are already changing, and for the better. 20 years ago, the rich had complete control over all media. That simply isn't true anymore. I suspect the trend will continue eventually making this "huge" issue moot.
I'm not, however, in favor of giving up freedom of speech in exchange for a temporary fix to an already waning issue.
If you want to help the problem be solved faster, your focus should be on education of the public. The more people who learn not only the ways in which they can keep themselves informed, but the importance of doing so, the less that paid advertising will be effective. Everyone knows that a coke commercial is meant to sell them coke, but not everyone knows the importance of looking for other sources of information.
This is a demand-side problem at its core. As long as there is so little demand for political information, there will be very few seeking a quality source for it. People have picked their side and are just looking for people to tell them what they want to hear. That's why we have the Bill Mahers and Rush Limbaughs of the world. Unless you can build a demand for unbiased information, there will be few sources.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
|