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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
    #21573653 - 04/20/15 09:29 PM (9 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
So one could still spend unlimited money advocating for a candidate as long as they don't form a pac?




No, $100 per candidate, period. However you might spend it.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21573661 - 04/20/15 09:31 PM (9 years, 30 days ago)

okay,  so who decides what is and isn't speech for a candidate?


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21573687 - 04/20/15 09:40 PM (9 years, 30 days ago)

Woof, you have some good ideas there. Very true about the built in inertia in the system and the fact it is very self serving for those in power and those who want to keep it that way. I think it would be impossible for one person to change everything, a skilled orator with fresh ideas might energize the public. But he would have to fight the media non stop as well as opposition from both parties.

It would be better if it was a third party candidate swept into office on a mandate against all odds.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21573852 - 04/20/15 10:33 PM (9 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
okay,  so who decides what is and isn't speech for a candidate?




The way I see this arising is via constitutional convention of the states, though there are certainly other, more common avenues. There are many politicians who are tired of pandering to donors full time, so the resistance to change won't necessarily be as profound as one might think.

If it went down in this way, it would be state officials making the decision, based on the demands of the public. It would be the most acutely watched and critiqued political event in a very very long time. If anyone tried playing games in this situation, they would quickly find themselves in a heap of trouble. I think there would be much deliberation about the outline of the law on the subject.

I would personally put myself in charge.

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Woof, you have some good ideas there. Very true about the built in inertia in the system and the fact it is very self serving for those in power and those who want to keep it that way. I think it would be impossible for one person to change everything, a skilled orator with fresh ideas might energize the public. But he would have to fight the media non stop as well as opposition from both parties.

It would be better if it was a third party candidate swept into office on a mandate against all odds.




A third party candidate would be more capable of unifying the public. That is the whole key to change. We the people all have similar desires in life, we just need some consensus on how to acheive them. If we had a third party candidate, people would be more capable of putting aside their party identification, and looking at the actual issues at hand. However, once psrty identification is cast aside, people will begin to look at things in terms of conservstive vs liberal. This is still progress, as these terms are representative of pholosophies, rather than bandwagons. They would still arrouse more in depth thought into what the terms even mean, and what the differences are.

It's interesting that so many conservatives actually support liberal views on a lot of things, but their church tells them to vote Republican because of abortion or gay rights issues, etc. I'm sure there are examples from both sides of this sort of thing, and I'm not trying to start that discussion. All I am trying to say is that, if you can push people to think even the slightest bit deeper about political philosophy, they might discover that the stance they so firmly adhere to is not the only way, and compromise might be more acheivable.

As we've agreed though, change will not occur because of one candidates actions, unless they were to inspire a cohesive, united political stance from the majority of the public to make change happen. Either that, or they must posess the capability to inspire members of the other branches, while simultaneously remaining generally altruistic in their goals. Such a candidate is not likely to arise. Manipulative charm and altruism tend to be somewhat mutually exclusive.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
    #21573929 - 04/20/15 11:11 PM (9 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
okay,  so who decides what is and isn't speech for a candidate?



Paid political advertisements.  :shrug:


--------------------
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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21574614 - 04/21/15 06:43 AM (9 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
I would personally put myself in charge.




Of course you would, but see axiom 1.

I'm looking for a workable system.  I don't believe one exists, so I'm looking to you to lay out the parameters.  How is the determination made of what is and what isn't speech for a candidate?

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Paid political advertisements.  :shrug:



Who decides what is and isn't a paid political advertisement

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21575747 - 04/21/15 09:46 AM (9 years, 29 days ago)

>Paid political advertisements

Honestly, its not that hard. Its obvious what is an ad for a product and what is political. Ban all political ads in 6 months before elections except those that are within the campaign contribution limits. Ban all ads that mention a candidate either pro or con or who mention party or make it clear who its about, except within donation limits.

The general rule about candidates and parties would apply always. The rule about anything political would be to plug any loophole when they talk about issues that clearly are to favor or attack a candidate without naming him/her.

What is so hard about that? Reinstate the cap on donations to political parties, pacs, and the like and all is cleaned up on that end. Then we have speaking fees, job after office, gifts to relatives and so on.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21575872 - 04/21/15 10:34 AM (9 years, 29 days ago)

If we have a governing body deciding what is and isn't political expenditure then it follows there would be enforcement if someone broke the law correct? Fines most likely, and if you don't pay your fines jail. Are you really okay with the government having the ability to throw people in prison for speaking out politically?

Enlil can correct me if I am wrong but i believe this is where he takes issue.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: psyconaught]
    #21576001 - 04/21/15 11:33 AM (9 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
I would personally put myself in charge.




Of course you would, but see axiom 1.

I'm looking for a workable system.  I don't believe one exists, so I'm looking to you to lay out the parameters.  How is the determination made of what is and what isn't speech for a candidate?




I said myself as a joke lol.

As I said, if a constitutional convention were formed, it would require the consensus of the officials of the states, with the guidance outlined by the people.



Quote:

psyconaught said:
If we have a governing body deciding what is and isn't political expenditure then it follows there would be enforcement if someone broke the law correct? Fines most likely, and if you don't pay your fines jail. Are you really okay with the government having the ability to throw people in prison for speaking out politically?

Enlil can correct me if I am wrong but i believe this is where he takes issue.




What is the problem here? We throw people who bribe politicians in jail too. It has become a similar situation to bribery. We already have caps on political spending in some ways, if you were to donate $100,000 directly to Hillary's campaign, what would happen?


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21576168 - 04/21/15 12:48 PM (9 years, 29 days ago)

giving money directly to a politician is very different than speaking out independently


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21576210 - 04/21/15 01:09 PM (9 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:

As I said, if a constitutional convention were formed, it would require the consensus of the officials of the states, with the guidance outlined by the people.



So, for every expenditure, a constitutional convention has to be held?  This seems unrealistic considering that there will be literally thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, of cases each year of people spending over 100 dollars.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21576292 - 04/21/15 01:33 PM (9 years, 29 days ago)

>What is the problem here? We throw people who bribe politicians in jail too. It has become a similar situation to bribery. We already have caps on political spending in some ways, if you were to donate $100,000 directly to Hillary's campaign, what would happen?

Exactly, there could be fines, perhaps criminal charges for willful and continued violations. We already have a system in place for stuff like that.

Enlil, quit flogging that straw man.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21576339 - 04/21/15 01:48 PM (9 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Enlil, quit flogging that straw man.



It's not a straw man.  I'm trying to figure out what woof's system looks like and how it works.  He's not exactly explaining it fully, so I have to ask lots of questions until I get all of the relevant details.  So far, it doesn't look workable to me, but maybe he's just not very good at explaining himself.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
    #21576501 - 04/21/15 02:39 PM (9 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:

As I said, if a constitutional convention were formed, it would require the consensus of the officials of the states, with the guidance outlined by the people.



So, for every expenditure, a constitutional convention has to be held?  This seems unrealistic considering that there will be literally thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, of cases each year of people spending over 100 dollars.




No, the course of action to enforce such laws would be determined by the members of the convention. Of course we don't have conventions to determine individual punishments. We have court hearings! Also, as with any law, it will of course be broken. We are looking to deteur the blatant sort of bribery we are seeing from the koch brothers and their ilk.

It is not up to any individual, including myself, to design a watertight solution. It will be a collaborative process, as everything is in this country.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21576543 - 04/21/15 02:48 PM (9 years, 29 days ago)

So, you have no workable system.  You just think the majority will magically agree on one.

I'm not as optimistic.

Someone has to be tasked with the job of determining what is and isn't political speech, and whoever that is will have an obscene amount of power.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
    #21576748 - 04/21/15 03:14 PM (9 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
So, you have no workable system.  You just think the majority will magically agree on one.

I'm not as optimistic.

Someone has to be tasked with the job of determining what is and isn't political speech, and whoever that is will have an obscene amount of power.




You keep making the assumption that it will be just one person.

We're not talking about banning political speech, we're talking about limiting financial contributions to political campaigns. So there will be a limit to how much money a person can spend to further a political campaign, plain and simple.

It wouldn't even probably stop people from spending beyond that amount, unless they were blatantly pouring money into a political campaign.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21576766 - 04/21/15 03:17 PM (9 years, 29 days ago)

It will be a person or persons.  Whoever they are will have ultimate control of political speech, so they will be very powerful people.  That power will be used to maintain themselves in office and enrich themselves.

News outlets will be censored because any positive or negative comment about a candidate will be political speech, and an expenditure of over $100. 

People will wind up be less informed than they are today.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
    #21576797 - 04/21/15 03:24 PM (9 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
It will be a person or persons.  Whoever they are will have ultimate control of political speech, so they will be very powerful people.  That power will be used to maintain themselves in office and enrich themselves.

News outlets will be censored because any positive or negative comment about a candidate will be political speech, and an expenditure of over $100. 

People will wind up be less informed than they are today.




I honestly wouldn't care if news outlets were censored, considering the propagandist nonsense they perpetuate nowadays anyway, but obviously there would be exceptions made on behalf of news organizations. This would give them a disproportionate amount of 'speech', kindof like what they already have. That is life. However, the internet is a great source of news today, and it is a relatively free to spread a message, and combat news propaganda.

"That power will be used to maintain themselves in office and enrich themselves." - Enlil

Boy, you are cynical haha. As I have said previously several times, this would be one of the most acutely watched events in 100 years. The people presiding over it would, in service of their own best interest, use that power carefully.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21576807 - 04/21/15 03:26 PM (9 years, 29 days ago)

Who decides what is and isn't a "news organization"?

Also, it looks like you're backing down from axiom 1 already.  If people have that power, they will use that power to serve their own interests.  If you disagree with this, then this conversation can serve no further purpose.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
    #21576822 - 04/21/15 03:29 PM (9 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Who decides what is and isn't a "news organization"?

Also, it looks like you're backing down from axiom 1 already.  If people have that power, they will use that power to serve their own interests.  If you disagree with this, then this conversation can serve no further purpose.





A news organization is a journalistic organization that exists to make a profit from it's journalistic endeavors.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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