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Offlinemore4u2c
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research on endospores maybe a better approach to killing them off?
    #21561431 - 04/17/15 09:28 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Ok so I've been doing some more research on endospores and has anyone looked into Tyndallization? His method is to simmer up to boil the seed 3 times in 15 min intervals over 3 days. The logic is the simmer/boil activates the endo's allows them time to germinate then the next simmer/boil will kill those off and activate any stubborn endo's that haven't yet germinated.

Do u think this is overkill? I'm using wheat berries would this longer time start the seed to germinate and not be a good idea? Any help is appreciated.

I don't really think I have a seed contamination issue but if I can find a more surefire way to get them as steril as possible would be great!

Right now they are in their 19th hour of soaking in water should I just do the normal 24hr soak simmer then pc or should I do 3; 15 min simmer sessions to try to activate all the endos?

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Re: research on endospores maybe a better approach to killing them off? [Re: more4u2c]
    #21561440 - 04/17/15 09:35 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Check this out.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21174437

Blackout does a lot if research into this stuff. Check out his main threads for more similar stuff.


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Offlinemore4u2c
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Re: research on endospores maybe a better approach to killing them off? [Re: Grey]
    #21561714 - 04/17/15 11:13 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

So it would be better to basically pc the jars a few times instead of just once? Like I use pint jars so a better endo kill would be a pc of an hour then let cool for a few hours then pc again for another hour and half?

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Offlineganjfather
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Re: research on endospores maybe a better approach to killing them off? [Re: more4u2c]
    #21561813 - 04/17/15 11:49 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

It's really overkill to be honest. Tyndallization was used back before pressured sterilization. If you have the equipment to pressure sterilize, it will be more effective than tyndallization.

The only real reason for using tyndallization in present day, is if you need to sterilize something that cannot withstand the heat from pressured sterilization or if you don't have a pressure cooker.


That being said, if someone wanted to make bulk grain and didn't have a PC... they would be best off using tyndallization, however it can still fail to sterilize.

If you really feel the need to tyndallize, it won't hurt anything, but it also is completely unnecessary and a waste of time if you plan on pressure cooking after.

Hope that helps :thumbup:


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Offlinemore4u2c
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Re: research on endospores maybe a better approach to killing them off? [Re: ganjfather]
    #21562105 - 04/18/15 02:00 AM (9 years, 1 month ago)

What im thinking is a hybrid of both lol tyndlization via pressure cooking as in PC them twice or do the simmer of the seed then instead of PC the seed right after simmer instead let it chill in water for a few hours to let the endos germinate then PC them I may be tryn to reevent the wheel here lol

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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: research on endospores maybe a better approach to killing them off? [Re: more4u2c]
    #21562611 - 04/18/15 08:47 AM (9 years, 1 month ago)

It's overkill if you have a PC and it might mess with your moisture levels.

Some people do a short PC run and then do a normal PC run the next night. I don't do this, so I can't really say the benefits beyond theoretical. It may have more benefits in certain applications than others.


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: research on endospores maybe a better approach to killing them off? [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #21562638 - 04/18/15 08:57 AM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Tyndl isn't around because better sterilization has eclipsed it. Before autoclaves it was the best you could do, now we learn about it in books. Pressure cooking sufficiently will kill endospores.

Edited by Trusted cuItivator (04/18/15 11:46 AM)

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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: research on endospores maybe a better approach to killing them off? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #21563297 - 04/18/15 11:40 AM (9 years, 1 month ago)

:whathesaid:

I re-read the OP. For some reason I thought you were using a PC at the end, but you are not. PC-ing is a much more reliable, easier, and time efficient method.


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Offlineganjfather
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Re: research on endospores maybe a better approach to killing them off? [Re: more4u2c]
    #21563551 - 04/18/15 12:32 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

more4u2c said:
What im thinking is a hybrid of both lol tyndlization via pressure cooking as in PC them twice or do the simmer of the seed then instead of PC the seed right after simmer instead let it chill in water for a few hours to let the endos germinate then PC them I may be tryn to reevent the wheel here lol





I understand exactly what your idea is. I'm just telling you it's completely unnecessary and a waste of time since you are going to PC afterwards.


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Offlineblackout
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Re: research on endospores maybe a better approach to killing them off? [Re: more4u2c]
    #21563575 - 04/18/15 12:36 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

more4u2c said:
Ok so I've been doing some more research on endospores and has anyone looked into Tyndallization? His method is to simmer up to boil the seed 3 times in 15 min intervals over 3 days.



This is not his (John Tyndall's) method for grains, in fact he specifically warns against it, so no wonder fractional sterilization has got such a bad name, many people are reading instructions which he specifically said will not work. This info is in the link in the second post.

15mins is way to short, some guides say 30mins. This 30mins was talking about liquid broths, 30mins once boiling, not 30mins steaming. Tyndall warned about grains being insulated from heat. So it should be 90+mins and at 10-12hr intervals, NOT 24hrs. The USDA farmers journal recommended 12-18hrs, also saying 24hrs is too long.

Aloha Medicinals are said to perform intermittent sterilization with pressure cookers for grains, and at least one cycle is at very high pressure/temps too
http://www.alohamedicinals.com/

You will see loads of posts saying fractional sterilization does not work, but most of these were doing exactly what he warned against, so bear that in mind, the people badmouthing Tyndall's "tek" are in a way really saying he was correct.

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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: research on endospores maybe a better approach to killing them off? [Re: blackout]
    #21563601 - 04/18/15 12:41 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

aloha doesn't do tyndal either they just do a double PC run. in fact most research on tyndalization shows you produce more endospores in the "germination stage" than you started with,

miller and Budweiser did a shitload of research on this stuff back in the day it never really got published but they do have lots of patents on sterilization and lab procedures and methodologies for preparing bio reactors for yeast propagation and all sorts of other things though. the efficacy of even true tyndalization is pretty shabby compared to a simple autoclave cycle, especially when you factor in the temporal component and added energy use.

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Re: research on endospores maybe a better approach to killing them off? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #21563830 - 04/18/15 01:38 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
aloha doesn't do tyndal either they just do a double PC run.


Yeah, that's why I said intermittent, and did not claim they did tyndallization -though I actually don't think I have ever seen a post of somebody doing tyndallization as he instructed. Has anybody?

Though I would consider their double PC run to be a variant of what he was doing. Unless there is some other reason they do it.

Probably best not to use the word sterilization at all lest the pedantic/semantic trolls come out from under their bridges.

Quote:

bodhisatta said:in fact most research on tyndalization shows you produce more endospores in the "germination stage" than you started with


Any links to this? And were they doing what he actually said to do, or what he specifically said not to do (24hr intervals). if its the latter it just confirms what he was saying.

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Re: research on endospores maybe a better approach to killing them off? [Re: blackout]
    #21563861 - 04/18/15 01:46 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

just up your pc time or steam for a strait 8 hours:shrug:


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Re: research on endospores maybe a better approach to killing them off? [Re: cronicr]
    #21563904 - 04/18/15 01:58 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

cronicr said:
just up your pc time or steam for a strait 8 hours:shrug:



For some people several shorter times are more convenient. I used to do them in a microwave, which had a max time setting of 60mins. I would have to really plan ahead to babysit jars for 8 hours. In that link Tyndall was saying he had found some that survived 8hr boiling too.

I know RR did 8 hours, however he was also doing this under slight pressure, I think 1psi. As he was at altitude he was saying it was still 100C. I still wonder about the effect of pressurisation, as I would guess it forces steam into the grain structure a bit better. So I wonder if 100C for 8hrs at 1psi at altitude is equal to 100C for 8hrs at sea level with normal steaming.

A PC is better of course, but this can allow beginners who may not have even dosed to make their mind up if they want to invest in one.

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Re: research on endospores maybe a better approach to killing them off? [Re: blackout]
    #21563911 - 04/18/15 01:59 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

i did a whack of them at 8 hours and never lost any, did rye and wbs:thumbup: no pressure either


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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: research on endospores maybe a better approach to killing them off? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #21563986 - 04/18/15 02:20 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
aloha doesn't do tyndal either they just do a double PC run.




That's what I was thinking of in my above post. I think it's either PW or BL that does this. The concept of a double PC run is similar to the idea behind tyndalizing except using a PC is actually affective because you are using pressurized steam heat.

The only reason I can think of that this would be worth the extra time and effort is if you needed a longer window of time for colonizing your grain, like multi G2G>G2G>G2G..., or stones, or you run a business that depends on reducing contams to as little as possible, or slower growing species. But, I'm no expert on the matter.


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