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OfflineLaCasta
Beyond Good andEvil

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 1,332
Loc: Chicago
Last seen: 6 years, 1 month
54 Iraqis killed in Samarra
    #2151649 - 12/02/03 01:20 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

Apparently there was a large coordinated attack against the Americans in Iraq and the US claims to have killed 54 Iraqi insurgents. My question is, since it has been proven that the US has lied and beefed up its enemy casualty reports in the past, why should we start believing them now?


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"Memories of high speeds when the cops crash, As I laugh pushin the gas while my glocks blast" -RIP Tupac


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InvisibletrendalM
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Folding@home Statistics
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Posts: 19,376
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Re: 54 Iraqis killed in Samarra [Re: LaCasta]
    #2151654 - 12/02/03 01:24 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

We shouldn't...

They want us to see a good kill ratio. If a lot more of "them" are getting killed than "us"...we're supposed to think we're winning :smirk:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineLaCasta
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Registered: 05/23/02
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Re: 54 Iraqis killed in Samarra [Re: trendal]
    #2151665 - 12/02/03 01:30 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

At least they were kind of smart about it in Vietnam. They would pay some vietnamese people to lay down and pretend they are dead and snap pics. Now they just throw out 54 and excpect us to believe it.


--------------------

"Memories of high speeds when the cops crash, As I laugh pushin the gas while my glocks blast" -RIP Tupac


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: 54 Iraqis killed in Samarra [Re: LaCasta]
    #2151672 - 12/02/03 01:35 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

I just read a book about nam, "A Rumour of War" and the author stressed a bunch of times how they were told that "if it's dead and vietnamese...it's VC". The guy's commanding officer even tried to get him to bribe his men with "extra beer rations and the time to drink them" for each "enemy" killed  :nonono:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineLaCasta
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Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 1,332
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Last seen: 6 years, 1 month
Re: 54 Iraqis killed in Samarra [Re: trendal]
    #2151682 - 12/02/03 01:43 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

God bless America :lol: 


--------------------

"Memories of high speeds when the cops crash, As I laugh pushin the gas while my glocks blast" -RIP Tupac


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: 54 Iraqis killed in Samarra [Re: LaCasta]
    #2151707 - 12/02/03 01:59 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

...and no where else! :smirk:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Offlineenimatpyrt
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Re: 54 Iraqis killed in Samarra [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2151974 - 12/02/03 03:53 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

So whenever an American dies, it's a reason to leave, whenever we have a victory, it's fake? Are you people thinking that hte moon landing was fake too?


--------------------
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: 54 Iraqis killed in Samarra [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2152008 - 12/02/03 04:05 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

It's funny that you consider people's death a victory :smirk:

"You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." --Albert Einstein


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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OfflineNirvhead
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Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 313
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Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Re: 54 Iraqis killed in Samarra [Re: trendal]
    #2152027 - 12/02/03 04:10 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
It's funny that you consider people's death a victory :smirk:

"You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." --Albert Einstein 




So wouldn't it be sad that you consider it funny?  :smirk:


--------------------
Like a fiend in a cloud
With howling woe,
After night I do croud
And with night will go;
I turn my back to the east,
From whence comforts have increas'd;
For light doth seize my brain
With frantic pain.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: 54 Iraqis killed in Samarra [Re: Nirvhead]
    #2152035 - 12/02/03 04:12 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

I think you know what I meant :wink:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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Offlineenimatpyrt
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Re: 54 Iraqis killed in Samarra [Re: Nirvhead]
    #2152048 - 12/02/03 04:14 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

I think that excising cancer, while bad for the cancer, is good for the healthy body. Would I have preferred that those 54 people been alive and allowed to kill Americans? No. Voluntary participants in war have to accept that responsibility.


--------------------
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.


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Offlineenimatpyrt
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Re: 54 Iraqis killed in Samarra [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2152055 - 12/02/03 04:15 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

And I actually didn't say that I considered dead people a victory... I guess reading is too much to expect of people.


--------------------
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.


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OfflineLearyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Re: 54 Iraqis killed in Samarra [Re: LaCasta]
    #2152122 - 12/02/03 04:31 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

I believe nothing they say without proof.




--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: The Loose Enz - The Black Door



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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: 54 Iraqis killed in Samarra [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2152133 - 12/02/03 04:36 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

Alow me to quote for you :smirk:

"So whenever an American dies, it's a reason to leave, whenever we have a victory, it's fake?" - enimatpyrt

I added the italics, of course :wink:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleEdame
gone

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1,270
Loc: outta here
Re: 54 Iraqis killed in Samarra [Re: LaCasta]
    #2152237 - 12/02/03 05:24 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

LaCasta said:
Apparently there was a large coordinated attack against the Americans in Iraq and the US claims to have killed 54 Iraqi insurgents. My question is, since it has been proven that the US has lied and beefed up its enemy casualty reports in the past, why should we start believing them now?




It's odd that you should mention that. Just saw this today (emphasis mine):

Quote:

No bodies found after Iraq gunfight
From correspondents in Samarra
02Dec03

THE US military has said it believes 54 insurgents were killed in intense exchanges in the northern Iraqi town of Samarra on Sunday but commanders admitted they had no bodies.

The only corpses at the city's hospital were those of ordinary civilians, including two elderly Iranian pilgrims and a child.


US Brigadier General Mark Kimmit told a Baghdad press conference 54 militants were killed, 22 wounded and one arrested.

Challenged about what had happened to the bodies, Gen Kimmitt said: "I would suspect that the enemy would have carried them away and brought them back to where their initial base was."

Asked about reports from senior police and hospital officials in the town of eight civilians killed and dozens more wounded, the US general insisted: "We have no such reports whether from medical authorities or police.

A few hours earlier, Colonel Fredrick Rudesheim, who heads the 3rd Combat Brigades that was involved in Sunday's bloody clashes, told reporters his troops had killed 46 and captured another 11.

"Are you asking me to produce (them)?" he asked, when asked by reporters about the absence of any militants' bodies at Samarra's single hospital or on the city's streets.

"This is a good question and I think perhaps if you can interview the Fedayeen (a disbanded militia of Saddam Hussein's ousted regime) or whoever attacked us, you might get a better answer."

Lieutenant Colonel Ryan Gonsalves, who commands the 166th Armoured Battalion in Samarra, also said his troops were not in possession of the bodies.

The death toll, he said, was "based on the reports we got from the ground".

Lieutenant Joseph Marcee, who took part in Sunday's combat, said he saw several of the attackers lying dead on the ground.

"There was no time to pick up the bodies. We were receiving fire from other locations," he said.

Sergeant Nicholas Mullen, who fired rounds from an Abrams tank on Sunday, offered yet another explanation for the army's inability to locate the corpses. "We don't stick around," he said.

The mystery, which borders on solving a mathematics equation, further deepened with Col Gonsalves' report.

According to him, a total of 60 militants, divided into two groups, attacked two convoys escorting new Iraqi currency to banks in the city.

Another four assailants in a BMW attacked a separate engineering convoy.

If the US troops killed 46 and captured 11 of them, only three of the survivors would have been left to pick up the corpses.

On Kimmit's figures the calculus becomes even hazier - with 54 killed, 22 wounded and one captured, 13 militants remain unaccounted for, although both commanders did say the cash convoys also came under attack on their way in and out of the city.

As to how the troops came up with their casualty figures, Rudesheim said it was by counting their weapons.

"We don't indiscriminately engage people, only those who engage us with AK 47s and RPGs. That's how we determine the number of people we are engaging and, after talking with each soldier, we can tell just how many people are returning fire at us."

Residents in Samarra said they had not seen any of the militants' bodies, 46 or 54.

The head of the local hospital, Abed Tawfiq, reported eight dead civilians but no insurgents.

Ambulance driver Abdelmoneim Mohammed said he had not ferried any combatants wounded or killed and wearing the black Fedayeen outfit which US soldiers said their assailants wore.

"If I had seen bodies, I would have picked them up. It's not like the Americans would have done it.

"If the death toll had reached that announced by the Americans, the atmosphere in Samarra would be quite different."

Salaheddin Mawlud, a colonel in the former Iraqi army, who now heads Samarra city council's complaints office, said the American toll does not work.

"If there had been so many dead, we would have seen people rushing to the hospital, the police station or here, and it just didn't happen."

Abdelrizek Jadwa, who owns a grocery 50m from the scene of one of the attacks, said he did not have the shadow of a doubt.

"After the firing, I went out of my shop. There were no wounded, no killed on the streets. Where could they have disappeared?"




--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: 54 Iraqis killed in Samarra [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2152345 - 12/02/03 06:06 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

enimatpyrt said:
Would I have preferred that those 54 people been alive and allowed to kill Americans? No. Voluntary participants in war have to accept that responsibility.




Same shit different pile....people are people,


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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