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Anonymous

here's one...
    #2151031 - 12/02/03 01:01 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

do you think the government should enforce laws regulating the sale of any drugs? (by this i mean prescriptions in particular)



(follow-up quetion... to follow)


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Offlinemonoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)

Registered: 09/07/02
Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: here's one... [Re: ]
    #2151063 - 12/02/03 01:11 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I'm not in favor of full legalization because I really don't want to see packs of heroin at the corner store and I think it would trample the FDA,but I'm definately in favor of decrim.

Any plant should be fully legal because it's fuitle to try to control them,and it should be legal posess small amounts of refined chems.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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Anonymous

Re: here's one... [Re: monoamine]
    #2151076 - 12/02/03 01:17 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

what i'm really referring to here are the currently legal prescription drugs. should the government enforce a policy that states in order to purchase certain drugs, you must have the sanction of a licensed physician?


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OfflineInfrared
sleeping
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Re: here's one... [Re: monoamine]
    #2151081 - 12/02/03 01:18 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

the fda/government have been raping americans for years on prescription drugs. I think all plants should be legal and then lower prescription costs and make it so that anyone that wants a script can get one. and if they make marijuana/cocoa/poppies legal they can tax sales of those at shops and make their precious money back.


--------------------
When chemistry is outlawed.. Only outlaws have chemistry:rainbowdrink:


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: here's one... [Re: ]
    #2151656 - 12/02/03 01:26 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I think the only prescription drugs that should be regulated are antibiotics as their misuse can cause problems for more people than just the user. Other than that it should be left up to the company producing the drugs.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: here's one... [Re: z@z.com]
    #2151701 - 12/02/03 01:57 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

The only thing that should be enforced is the distribution of information on said substances.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineInfrared
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Re: here's one... [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2151784 - 12/02/03 02:34 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Azmodeus said:
The only thing that should be enforced is the distribution of information on said substances.




exactly how i feel. if there is some opiate addict, he should be able to buy clean clean pills for cheap. There should be a clinic where you go and talk to a doctor about what you want, and he should advise you on the specifics of the drugs. he shouldnt make you buy something else, the final descision of what you consume should ultimately be yours.


--------------------
When chemistry is outlawed.. Only outlaws have chemistry:rainbowdrink:


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: here's one... [Re: Infrared]
    #2151810 - 12/02/03 02:43 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

but many will fuck themselves up without caring to educate themeselves,and that is a problem...unfortunatley we have problems already, but with free choice and information available, hopefully such stupidity will decrease.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineInfrared
sleeping
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Re: here's one... [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2152655 - 12/02/03 07:42 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

but who cares if some dunbfuck wants to kill himself with opiates? at least this way the government will be making money off of addicts instead of increasing trafficking/street crime. which they will in turn have to spend more money on.


--------------------
When chemistry is outlawed.. Only outlaws have chemistry:rainbowdrink:


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Anonymous

Re: here's one... [Re: z@z.com]
    #2154708 - 12/03/03 12:51 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I think the only prescription drugs that should be regulated are antibiotics as their misuse can cause problems for more people than just the user.

that's exactly what i'm getting at... antibiotics. but... is that right? why shouldn't people have a right to use antibiotics at their will? the libertarian in me says no to regulation of antibiotics, but it's a tough call.

it would make more sense to me... that instead of a doctor prescribing antibiotics, the manufacturers should. after all, the misuse of their own product decreases its value. it would seem more fair to me if they were the ones who chose who they sold their product to and who they didn't. as it is now, physicians are pressured by patients and insurance companies to provide antibiotics to people when they don't need them. the physicians really have little to lose by doing this, so it ends up being a problem.

but i think that even though the long run effect of selling excessive amounts of antibiotics would be that they would become worthless, it would still be more profitable to sell an antibiotic like that than to sell it responsibly... so maybe that wouldn't solve the problem. it would probably make it worse.

are most antibiotics patented and sold by a single firm, or is there competition?


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: here's one... [Re: ]
    #2154844 - 12/03/03 01:28 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

i don't know, but aren't doctores 'encouraged' to prescribe certain brands of medicine? with free samples, comission etc? are we getting the best medicine for the value? or are the most aggressive marketeering strategies influencing the medice we are prescribed?....i wonder....


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Offlineenimatpyrt
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Registered: 11/05/03
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Re: here's one... [Re: ]
    #2155609 - 12/03/03 04:42 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
I think the only prescription drugs that should be regulated are antibiotics as their misuse can cause problems for more people than just the user.

that's exactly what i'm getting at... antibiotics. but... is that right? why shouldn't people have a right to use antibiotics at their will? the libertarian in me says no to regulation of antibiotics, but it's a tough call.

it would make more sense to me... that instead of a doctor prescribing antibiotics, the manufacturers should. after all, the misuse of their own product decreases its value. it would seem more fair to me if they were the ones who chose who they sold their product to and who they didn't. as it is now, physicians are pressured by patients and insurance companies to provide antibiotics to people when they don't need them. the physicians really have little to lose by doing this, so it ends up being a problem.

but i think that even though the long run effect of selling excessive amounts of antibiotics would be that they would become worthless, it would still be more profitable to sell an antibiotic like that than to sell it responsibly... so maybe that wouldn't solve the problem. it would probably make it worse.

are most antibiotics patented and sold by a single firm, or is there competition?




You can purchase antibiotics at a vet supply store or a feed store. Tetracycline is one of those things that I recommend people stocking up on.


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The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.


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OfflineGernBlanston
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Registered: 05/28/03
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Re: here's one... [Re: ]
    #2156847 - 12/03/03 11:48 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
I think the only prescription drugs that should be regulated are antibiotics as their misuse can cause problems for more people than just the user.

that's exactly what i'm getting at... antibiotics. but... is that right? why shouldn't people have a right to use antibiotics at their will? the libertarian in me says no to regulation of antibiotics, but it's a tough call.




Yah - That's a very tough call. Antibiotics, like all prescription medications, are controlled as intellectual property. While I understand that intellectual property laws have their place (copyrights of music, fiction, etc.) and generally benefit the property holder, I feel that these laws, when applied to pharmaceuticals, do not work. Oh -don't get me wrong... they work for the pharmaceutical companies - but that's not what I'm getting at. I think there are instances where the good of the many is placed in front of the good of the few, and pharmaceuticals are possibly the largest example of how that does NOT happen.

I know it costs money to do the R&D and produce a drug to the point where it is deemd safe and effective. Companies should be recompensated this capital, plus a fair profit. Fair, being the key word. Me? Yah.. well, I don't think 4000% is generally a fair profit margin. The intellectual property laws that allow this to happen do so at a significant expense to the public good. This is a problem - and as long as pharmaceutical companies account for (I think - I don't have the #s in front of me) the 3rd largest % of contributions to Republicans and the 5th largest to democrats, than this is NOT going to change.

That said: Antibiotics are a bit different. Antibiotics are already overused in the US (by a factor of about 10 - as in, there are 10x more antibiotics used than there reasonably should be). What this does is twofold - decreases the natural immunity of it's users (Americans are already the least physically healthy people of any first world country) - and second, increases the heartiness of EVERY bacteriological pathogen in the country, and does so on a continuous, self-fulfilling basis. Poeple in 3rd world countries should have nearly unlimited access to antibiotics to deal with things like dysentary and strep - bacterial infections that actually KILL people in other parts of the world. What this country actually needs is for people to STOP taking antibiotics alltogether for about 5 years.

Is that going to happen? Of course not. Price-Pfister and Bayer would never ever allow that.

So you're right... it's a very tough call - and not an uncomplicated issue, by any means.

Quote:


are most antibiotics patented and sold by a single firm, or is there competition?




There is definitely competition among pharmaceutical companies. This is just an educated guess, but I'd say that each of the major pharma companies in the US have 4-6 major broad spectrum antibiotics, and another 5-10 type-specific antibiotics on the market.


--------------------
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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InvisibleKid_Orgo
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Registered: 09/24/03
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Re: here's one... [Re: ]
    #2157164 - 12/04/03 01:46 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

that instead of a doctor prescribing antibiotics, the manufacturers should.




No offense, and I say this with all possible respect, because this is a tough problem, but that is the worst solution possible.
The problem is that antibiotics are being tossed out like candy to people who don't know jack about using them. Do you honestly think any company would say
"shit, man, this guy doesn't need to give us his money. He'd be cool without our pills?"

Now, I consider myself a libertarian, so this is tough to say, but antibiotics need to be restricted. Maybe more than they already are. Why do old antibiotics stop getting use? Why the search for new antibiotics? The over/mis use in the past led to resistance. As the old drugs get wasted on livestock and idiots and the bugs get resistant, new ones have to be found, at ASTRONOMICAL cost to the taxpayer (who pays to run the entire FDA apparat, in all it's bloated glory)

I don't think this continuing race hurts the drug companies one bit. They have everthing to gain from over-use of their meds. They get the money, and they get to charge more for the next new cure.

As much as I believe in any individual's right to self-determination, I do NOT want to see the entire nation laid low by resistant TB strains.

Think I'm being over dramatic? Take a look out there. More and more diseases that used to be easily beaten back with penicillin are no longer such. A disease doesn't have to be Ebola to wipe us out, ladies and gentlemen. I'm more afraid of TB.

We should NOT be spraying livestock down with penicillin! People should NOT be discontinuing courses of Amoxicillin in their infant because the kids better and they're lazy two days in.


--------------------
He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.


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Offlinemonoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)

Registered: 09/07/02
Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
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Re: here's one... [Re: Kid_Orgo]
    #2157178 - 12/04/03 01:55 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I don't think antibiotics fit the rubric of Libertarian rights because over prescribing them directly harms other people by creating "super germs".
I see it the same way I see environmental polution. The individual does not outwiegh the collective in this case.

I want to punch mothers that bring little Johnny to the ER because he has the sniffles,especially since little Johnny is passing on his illness to me and I have to sit in agonizing pain from a kidney stone while he sees the doctor for his non-problem.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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OfflinePhred
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Re: here's one... [Re: GernBlanston]
    #2158269 - 12/04/03 03:45 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

It is indeed a very tough call.

Where I live, antibiotics can be bought without a prescription. It saves the poor here the cost of a doctor's visit to obtain a prescription, but it may be contributing to the rise of resistant bacteria. Dominicans most definitely overuse antibiotics (although to a lesser extent these days than fifteen years ago, as more information is spread around regarding the drawbacks), both on their own and in some cases on the advice of their doctors.

As for patents -- medications receive a patent life of fifteen years. After that, anyone can manufacture them without paying royalties. Even then, outside the US there are often companies who will ignore patent restrictions and in most cases they will get away with it. I know there are generic versions of sumatriptan (Imitrex/Imigran) tablets available -- have been for at least three or four years -- yet the patent on it doesn't expire until around 2005.

The 4000% profit margin figure is sheer fantasy. Read the annual reports of a few pharmaceutical companies to disprove this for yourself. To bring a new prescription drug to market takes hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars and many many years of trials and testing, as well as many failures along the way. These costs must of course be factored into the profit and loss equation to present an accurate picture -- it is not enough to say that a pill currently selling for $10 can be manufactured for twenty-five cents worth of materials and labor.

pinky


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Offlinemonoamine
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Registered: 09/07/02
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Re: here's one... [Re: Phred]
    #2159121 - 12/04/03 08:43 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Don't pharmacists act kind of like doctor's over there? Like if you have a problem,you describe to the pharmacist and he'll prescribe it for you?


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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OfflinePhred
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Re: here's one... [Re: monoamine]
    #2159160 - 12/04/03 08:53 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Some do, some don't. Most don't.

Whenever I want some drugs, I just tell the guy what I want and he sells it to me. Fifteen years ago I could do that with anything except some opiates. Now they make you get a scrip for tranks and downers as well. Oddly enough, I can still walk into any pharmacy on the island and buy out their entire stock of paregoric with no difficulty. Paregoric is nothing more than tincture of opium.

pinky


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