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JuniorMajesty
Space Ghost


Registered: 06/23/14
Posts: 69
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2 different strains in bulk substrate
#21505433 - 04/05/15 09:20 AM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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Just wondering if there is any problem with putting 2 different strains in 1 bulk substrate. I have 2 different varieties colonized was hoping to get x amount of each but not all jars or bags were clean:(
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Achillita
Back to the basics



Registered: 05/26/14
Posts: 4,565
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Re: 2 different strains in bulk substrate [Re: JuniorMajesty]
#21505500 - 04/05/15 09:38 AM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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Nope, no problem. Cubes will be compatible with cubes.
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JuniorMajesty
Space Ghost


Registered: 06/23/14
Posts: 69
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Re: 2 different strains in bulk substrate [Re: Achillita]
#21505520 - 04/05/15 09:46 AM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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Nice thank you kindly:) Sky On!!!
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DidYouSetItToWumbo
Batman



Registered: 01/15/15
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Re: 2 different strains in bulk substrate [Re: Achillita]
#21505522 - 04/05/15 09:46 AM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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If you are talking about mixing the two strains together in a monotub or some sort of similar set up it will reduce your overall yield. The two strains will fight eachother for nutrients so you will still get fruits but they will be much less than what you would get if you were dealing with one strain all interconnected throughout the bulk substrate.
If you know which strains are in which jars you can create a divider in your bulk and separate out the strains so that they don't compete with eachother.
I recently made this mistake mixing B+ and A+. The A+ basically took over the monotub and had some pretty large fruits, while the B+ only gave very small fruits. Still got just over an ounce dried but I definitely would have gotten more had I made the tub only A+ or vice versa.
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 22,502
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Quote:
DidYouSetItToWumbo said: If you are talking about mixing the two strains together in a monotub or some sort of similar set up it will reduce your overall yield. The two strains will fight eachother for nutrients so you will still get fruits but they will be much less than what you would get if you were dealing with one strain all interconnected throughout the bulk substrate.
Please ignore this nonsense.....strains of the same species do not "fight each other for nutrients", they usually grow together in harmony....any MS syringe has multiple sets of genetics that all grow together anyways, if you were looking for proof......the name some vendor labeled a certain group of spores means little...
--------------------
THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT!
A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD,
SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List,
EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE
*** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
Edited by PussyFart (04/05/15 09:51 AM)
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DidYouSetItToWumbo
Batman



Registered: 01/15/15
Posts: 150
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Re: 2 different strains in bulk substrate [Re: PussyFart]
#21505562 - 04/05/15 09:57 AM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
PussyFart said:
Quote:
DidYouSetItToWumbo said: If you are talking about mixing the two strains together in a monotub or some sort of similar set up it will reduce your overall yield. The two strains will fight eachother for nutrients so you will still get fruits but they will be much less than what you would get if you were dealing with one strain all interconnected throughout the bulk substrate.
Please ignore this nonsense.....strains of the same species do not "fight each other for nutrients", they usually grow together in harmony....any MS syringe has multiple sets of genetics that all grow together......
I believe you but that has not been my experience with mixing different strains of cubes. So a A+ and B+ mixed monotub (just for reference) in a perfect world should produce equal sized fruits and equal yield/potency to a monotub with one strain ?
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Achillita
Back to the basics



Registered: 05/26/14
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Each pair of spores are technically a strain. What spore's are labelled as are usually just effects the looks of the mushroom, with some genetic similarities. It all goes back to genetics if they'll produce equal sided fruits or potency or ect. Did you just mix one side next to each other or both strains thoroughly through the bulk sub?
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DidYouSetItToWumbo
Batman



Registered: 01/15/15
Posts: 150
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Re: 2 different strains in bulk substrate [Re: Achillita]
#21505613 - 04/05/15 10:11 AM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Achillita said: Each pair of spores are technically a strain. What spore's are labelled as are usually just effects the looks of the mushroom, with some genetic similarities. It all goes back to genetics if they'll produce equal sided fruits or potency or ect. Did you just mix one side next to each other or both strains thoroughly through the bulk sub?
Mixed it all thoroughly together, that is what I figured OP was referring to doing.
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 22,502
Loc: Orbiting Earth
Last seen: 7 months, 28 days
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Quote:
DidYouSetItToWumbo said:
Quote:
PussyFart said:
Quote:
DidYouSetItToWumbo said: If you are talking about mixing the two strains together in a monotub or some sort of similar set up it will reduce your overall yield. The two strains will fight eachother for nutrients so you will still get fruits but they will be much less than what you would get if you were dealing with one strain all interconnected throughout the bulk substrate.
Please ignore this nonsense.....strains of the same species do not "fight each other for nutrients", they usually grow together in harmony....any MS syringe has multiple sets of genetics that all grow together......
I believe you but that has not been my experience with mixing different strains of cubes. So a A+ and B+ mixed monotub (just for reference) in a perfect world should produce equal sized fruits and equal yield/potency to a monotub with one strain ?
Did you mix two isolates, or a bunch of random genetics?
--------------------
THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT!
A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD,
SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List,
EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE
*** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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Achillita
Back to the basics



Registered: 05/26/14
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Last seen: 3 years, 11 months
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It was just genetics which caused the difference in the types of fruits. It wasn't because they were separate strains.
I'm pretty sure he's talking about 2 MS cube strains.
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DidYouSetItToWumbo
Batman



Registered: 01/15/15
Posts: 150
Loc: On a mountain
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Re: 2 different strains in bulk substrate [Re: Achillita]
#21505667 - 04/05/15 10:21 AM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
PussyFart said:
Quote:
DidYouSetItToWumbo said:
Quote:
PussyFart said:
Quote:
DidYouSetItToWumbo said: If you are talking about mixing the two strains together in a monotub or some sort of similar set up it will reduce your overall yield. The two strains will fight eachother for nutrients so you will still get fruits but they will be much less than what you would get if you were dealing with one strain all interconnected throughout the bulk substrate.
Please ignore this nonsense.....strains of the same species do not "fight each other for nutrients", they usually grow together in harmony....any MS syringe has multiple sets of genetics that all grow together......
I believe you but that has not been my experience with mixing different strains of cubes. So a A and B mixed monotub (just for reference) in a perfect world should produce equal sized fruits and equal yield/potency to a monotub with one strain ?
Did you mix two isolates, or a bunch of random genetics?
Indeed two separate MS cube strains.
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silverstem
Caps & Stems


Registered: 10/12/13
Posts: 900
Loc: jordan
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
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Lol u can't just think its bad because of 2 MS variety's combined.... Genetics is key... 2 verities does not produce less fruits.
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DidYouSetItToWumbo
Batman



Registered: 01/15/15
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Re: 2 different strains in bulk substrate [Re: silverstem]
#21505709 - 04/05/15 10:31 AM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
silverstem said: Lol u can't just think its bad because of 2 MS variety's combined.... Genetics is key... 2 verities does not produce less fruits.
Thanks for your wise words.
Edited by DidYouSetItToWumbo (04/05/15 10:32 AM)
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 62,905
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i do this dumb shit all the time, agreed with pussyfart
-------------------- It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn
I'm tired do me a favor
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,915
Loc: Milky way
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Re: 2 different strains in bulk substrate [Re: cronicr] 1
#21506057 - 04/05/15 12:11 PM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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You have 100s of strains in a single b+ grow from spores. Makes no difference if you throw in any other variety the spores have no idea they have different names attached to them they behave exactly the same.
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Dr.Greenthumbs
Stranger


Registered: 03/27/18
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Re: 2 different strains in bulk substrate [Re: JuniorMajesty]
#25160435 - 04/23/18 05:22 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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When separated they grow together just fine! In this tray, A.P.E.s on the bottom; P.E.S.A.s on the top. From an experimental standpoint, would have to say that different races do grow separately; which I could see effecting yield when stratified together in a bulk sub. The mycelial network never connected between the two. Probably due to variables like growth rate and mycelial structure.
Pic below. Will post pics in a week after first fruiting cycle.
You would have better luck mixing two similar varieties in a bulk sub. For instance, two Thai strains would be inclined to have similar characteristics. Am sure they have grown together successfully in the wild.
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Enkidu
"No-Such-Person"


Registered: 07/09/16
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Re: 2 different strains in bulk substrate [Re: Dr.Greenthumbs]
#25160513 - 04/23/18 05:54 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Does this only apply to Ms where yield is not affected and not apply to mixing for instance two different varieties of cubes you've cloned to agar?
I've read it's possible that this can in fact create a new variety if the two mycellium do twine together in the colonization of the sub, is this true ?
-------------------- Within You , Without You
      
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LtLurker
Lost Sailor



Registered: 01/03/18
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Re: 2 different strains in bulk substrate [Re: Enkidu]
#25160532 - 04/23/18 06:04 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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When they mix 2 varieties, they have to get mono karyotic Mycellium (mycellium from a single spore) going for each variety and attempt to mate the two. MS has shit tons of spores that already mated before the 2 varietys are even mixed in substrate, preventing any inter-variety mating.
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Enkidu
"No-Such-Person"


Registered: 07/09/16
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Re: 2 different strains in bulk substrate [Re: LtLurker]
#25160548 - 04/23/18 06:10 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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What about usng clones from agar and not MS when mixing in tubs ?
I have a bunch I accidently fucked up and nixted together, wondering if it's possible they will shoot me a new variety
-------------------- Within You , Without You
      
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LtLurker
Lost Sailor



Registered: 01/03/18
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Re: 2 different strains in bulk substrate [Re: Enkidu]
#25160553 - 04/23/18 06:14 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Nah it's the same thing man. That clone mycellium has already mated. They may over grow each other, but they won't combine into a new variety.
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Enkidu
"No-Such-Person"


Registered: 07/09/16
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Re: 2 different strains in bulk substrate [Re: LtLurker]
#25160556 - 04/23/18 06:14 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Gotcha thanks bro
-------------------- Within You , Without You
      
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,915
Loc: Milky way
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Re: 2 different strains in bulk substrate [Re: LtLurker]
#25160577 - 04/23/18 06:22 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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you can mix two MS cultures of different varieties and get a new varietal hybrid. you can mix two different varieties of clone together and get a new varietal hybrid you can mix two isolates/monocultures/strains of different varieties together and get a new varietal hybrid or any combination thereof
Quote:
LtLurker said: Nah it's the same thing man. That clone mycellium has already mated. They may over grow each other, but they won't combine into a new variety.
Quote:
LtLurker said:
MS has shit tons of spores that already mated before the 2 varietys are even mixed in substrate, preventing any inter-variety mating.
nope
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LtLurker
Lost Sailor



Registered: 01/03/18
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Re: 2 different strains in bulk substrate [Re: bodhisatta]
#25160597 - 04/23/18 06:30 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: you can mix two MS cultures of different varieties and get a new varietal hybrid. you can mix two different varieties of clone together and get a new varietal hybrid you can mix two isolates/monocultures/strains of different varieties together and get a new varietal hybrid or any combination thereof
Quote:
LtLurker said: Nah it's the same thing man. That clone mycellium has already mated. They may over grow each other, but they won't combine into a new variety.
Quote:
LtLurker said:
MS has shit tons of spores that already mated before the 2 varietys are even mixed in substrate, preventing any inter-variety mating.
nope
GTFO Really? What the fuck have I been reading.
Sorry Enkidu. I'm spreadin around some wrong info. I'm an ass.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,915
Loc: Milky way
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Re: 2 different strains in bulk substrate [Re: LtLurker]
#25160612 - 04/23/18 06:37 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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anastomosis doesn't stop. Mycelium will cross on a dish.
Stabilizing and obtaining a good varietal hybrid is the hard part. Not making a bunch of crosses
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LtLurker
Lost Sailor



Registered: 01/03/18
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Re: 2 different strains in bulk substrate [Re: bodhisatta]
#25160648 - 04/23/18 06:48 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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That's pretty wild. I'm gonna need to look into it more. Thanks for jumping in a correcting. Always appreciated.
Late thought. So then why is it when I read about crossing, this technique of isolating single spores and starting from that seems to come up? Just most reliable?
Edited by LtLurker (04/23/18 06:53 PM)
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
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Re: 2 different strains in bulk substrate [Re: LtLurker] 1
#25160744 - 04/23/18 07:30 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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you know you have a cross that's give or take 50/50ish.
sometimes people just print one variety on a foil then another variety right on top then streak the spores of both together to agar. and try to select ones that have visual traits from two visually different varieties. like red spores and leusitic fruits.
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MrSturgill
I'm a damn genuis! Just ask me




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Re: 2 different strains in bulk substrate [Re: bodhisatta]
#25160771 - 04/23/18 07:41 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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-------------------- All You Need
and
The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Shroomery
Read, read, read some more, don't consider anything has been read until everything has been read, then go back and read it again.
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Enkidu
"No-Such-Person"


Registered: 07/09/16
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Re: 2 different strains in bulk substrate [Re: MrSturgill]
#25160842 - 04/23/18 08:09 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Good to know, thaks bod, np lurker, we're all here to learn.
If I have two varieties I can visually identify and I mix them and find a boomer that is visually significantly different, and clone it with a tissue sample, would this in theory give me a cross variety...?
Would you need to grow it out and repeat by cloning the mushroom that continues to show the new characteristics in order to isolste the cross variety traits?
-------------------- Within You , Without You
      
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Dr.Greenthumbs
Stranger


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Re: 2 different strains in bulk substrate [Re: Enkidu]
#25161243 - 04/23/18 10:37 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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That would be considered a hybrid. Correct me if I’m mistaken but, eye believe by selectively cloning mushrooms with a certain phenotypical profile , you would only be copying; not homogenizing the phenotypical structure of that hybrid.. In order to create a new “variety” you would probably need to germinate spores from said mushroom and repeat the breeding cycle in order to begin a Fileal genetic structure. Just another case of inbreeding.
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Enkidu
"No-Such-Person"


Registered: 07/09/16
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Re: 2 different strains in bulk substrate [Re: Dr.Greenthumbs]
#25161261 - 04/23/18 10:48 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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So you're saying by taking new clones from the grow of the previously taken clone, I would not be further isolating the expressed characteristics ? It would continue to hold the same phenotype, for example, if 1 in 4 fruits statistically express the characteristics of the hybrid, even after continually selecting and cloning from the mushroom that expressed those characteristics, it would still hold the same 1 in 4 ratio of expression in the fruits that came from the grow that the predecessors expressed...?
Sorry just want to make sure I understand, appreciate the comments.
So in other words, I could in theory take a clone from any of the 4 mushrooms and they would all have the same chances of expressing the new characteristics in the future grow..?
-------------------- Within You , Without You
      
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Dr.Greenthumbs
Stranger


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Re: 2 different strains in bulk substrate [Re: Enkidu]
#25161331 - 04/23/18 11:34 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yeah. A clone is a clone is a clone. Only breeding that clone would technically be constructing a new homogenous phenotype. (F1 Stable variety) Open to corrections if this info isn’t correct.
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Dr.Greenthumbs
Stranger


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Re: 2 different strains in bulk substrate [Re: Enkidu]
#25161338 - 04/23/18 11:40 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Exactly. Similar to breeding and cultivating cannabis. You’re on the right track to solidifying some strong mush genetics. In theory if you found a mutated fruit you could probably begin to work with a print from that mushroom. Each time you collected a spore print from a generation further(selecting mutants), the percentage of mutants should increase each generation. Keep in mind I’m talking about phenotypical mutations like leucistic or albino, not mutations associated with improper fruiting/colonizing conditions and or nutrients.
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Enkidu
"No-Such-Person"


Registered: 07/09/16
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Re: 2 different strains in bulk substrate [Re: Dr.Greenthumbs]
#25161346 - 04/23/18 11:44 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Ok cool, thanks for the comments, this is something I need to research and learn more about
-------------------- Within You , Without You
      
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Dr.Greenthumbs
Stranger


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Re: 2 different strains in bulk substrate [Re: Enkidu]
#25161353 - 04/23/18 11:48 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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I️ don’t think you will find too much information on such advanced breedingbof p.cubes, sounds like you’ve got everything you need to do your own badass research. Why not start with your agar trays now. Sometimes the best way to find a wacky mushroom that may carry traits is withnsome mixed up shit you forgot about lol.
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FishLevelMidnight
Aquaman



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Re: 2 different strains in bulk substrate [Re: Dr.Greenthumbs]
#25602546 - 11/09/18 08:44 AM (6 years, 2 months ago) |
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Sorry to bump an old thread,
but if you are planning on making a new variety, what method would give the best success of mixing genetics?
Plating 2 strains on a dish, then transferring the mycelium where they meet. Putting 2 agar wedges from 2 strains in an LC, letting them mix and grow for a bit then using that.
Not entirely my idea, but I have some nice PE/APE/PEU clones that I would love to start mixing with some of the other varieties of cubes I've grown with nice characteristics and startign a stabilization effort of a new variety, so knowing the best way to promote anastomosis between the clone mycelium and a T2 wedge from another cube MS would be great.
Lastly, along those lines, would it be best to mix mycelium from 2 clones vs a clone and MS? Would that help limit the genetic diversity that arises when they do mix (more predictable to see the cross).
I can imagine it hard being able to distinguish a cross of APE vs (insert generic cubensis) non mated generic cubensis when the generic cubensis already has a "wild type" phenotype... does that question make sense?
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