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Invisiblequinn
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Registered: 01/02/10
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freewill and determinism * 1
    #21482415 - 03/31/15 09:41 AM (6 years, 9 months ago)

i thought i would throw my 2c to see what ppl think.. i know this one has been done to death but whatever..

first they are often portrayed as opposites 'FW vs Determinism'

i dont think that is the case, to me they are different ways of describing things.

freewill is about ascribing responsibility to people for their actions.. it occurs in human to human relationships. we use it to describe criminals, love affairs, leadership decisions, life choices, when a person affects other people that is where free will becomes a relevant question.

determinism on the other hand is about describing the world as accuratly as possible, so that people could not help but agree on it. so i am not asking you how you feel about this thing, but what we can agree on about it. it is 3cm tall. when you push it it falls to the ground at 1m / second. etc. that is the early stages of deterministic description.

the human conflict that is necessary for freewill is absent in determinism because it requires us to agree (at least implicitly) before we say anything more on it.

agree?


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dripping with fantasy


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OfflineTropism
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Registered: 09/12/09
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Re: freewill and determinism [Re: quinn] * 1
    #21482790 - 03/31/15 12:37 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Brush up on the differences, bro, you're pretty hazy on what they are. (that or I'm just confused by your post)
Either you have the power to change the course of events and your own destiny, or it been laid out before us by preceding events.

Even when I collect myself on how to act I draw from my memory, I draw from my experiences and all that has happened to me.
All that has happened to me has determined who I am and how I behave, all that came before that determined what would happen to me, etc.

While I entirely enjoy the illusion of free will, it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me to believe my decisions haven't been limited from the get go.
I have the free will to choose between whats available, and that choice is determined via self reflection.
Even a defiant "No! I can act as I please and do what I want!" is resulting from a sense of containment, and the decision is determined through previous witnessed behaviors.


Edited by Tropism (03/31/15 12:47 PM)


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: freewill and determinism [Re: quinn]
    #21482804 - 03/31/15 12:43 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

I agree but see the lines blur especially in the realm of psychology - AKA what is going on in the psyche?

I've said before, if you're in control of your thoughts, then stop thinking. It really cannot be done. IMO that leads one to ponder what is initiating thoughts in the first place. Which is not to say then that one must arrive at some solid conclusion.


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleWhite Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
Re: freewill and determinism [Re: quinn]
    #21482947 - 03/31/15 01:30 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

I think we should still ascribe responsibility to people for their actions even in a deterministic frame work, mainly to cause people to be nice to one another. The idea of personal responsibility would just be another ball in the large billiards game of life and if it has a positive outcome then we may as well keep it.


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InvisibleWhite Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
Re: freewill and determinism [Re: White Beard]
    #21483071 - 03/31/15 02:11 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Does anyone else see freewill as more of a sliding scale than a yes or no thing? e.g. a paraplegic has less free will in certain areas than a fully able-bodied individual. The paraplegic has more conditions to deal with in order to move from point A to B, such as the condition that they can't take the stairs. However the paraplegic may have a freer will when it comes to mental tasks.

To say people can make decisions totally independent of conditions makes no sense to me.


Edited by White Beard (04/01/15 01:38 PM)


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: freewill and determinism [Re: Kickle]
    #21487058 - 04/01/15 12:20 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

it all seems very complicated.. i feel often other people initiate thoughts for me.. like long forgotten memories suddenly resurrected given the right conversation.. and new situations bring back memories of similar times.. personal fears also seem to call a lot of the shots.


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: freewill and determinism [Re: White Beard]
    #21487072 - 04/01/15 12:23 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

yeah i agree.. i think in the op i ended up describing determinism from a free will basis (that first we decide to agree on things) but i think free will can just be described just as well the way that you did..


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: freewill and determinism [Re: quinn] * 1
    #21487096 - 04/01/15 12:28 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

I agree with it being complicated. I think it could be approached in maybe a billion different ways - or more. As many ways as there are thoughts I suspect.

I personally have simplified it by viewing it as I do other phenomena. Dependent. And by that I mean thoughts do not exist of their own accord, isolated and alone. And then if I get curious about a particular thought I can try and trace back what is inspiring it to be.


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: freewill and determinism [Re: Kickle]
    #21491137 - 04/02/15 07:27 AM (6 years, 9 months ago)

cool.. what if you get lost :frown::shrug::cookiemonster:


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: freewill and determinism [Re: quinn]
    #21491328 - 04/02/15 10:16 AM (6 years, 9 months ago)

sometimes i have been horribly mistaken about tracing the origins of thoughts., typical example is blaming parents for aspects of life i don't like.. only reaching some independence allows proper assessment of the relationship and life (even a completely new one)..


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: freewill and determinism [Re: quinn]
    #21491876 - 04/02/15 12:58 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

I get lost all the time. My approach to "tracing back" is more or less meditative in nature. The watchful eye to see the process in action. But the train, imo aptly named, of thought can take me quite a distance before I ever catch on to how I arrived at a particular destination. So in those cases the backwards tracing is mostly confabulated guesswork. That to me is being lost.

Ideally I take that speculation with a grain of salt and set about trying to pay a bit more attention the next train :smile:


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinechakruna
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Registered: 04/02/15
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Re: freewill and determinism [Re: Kickle]
    #21494679 - 04/03/15 12:39 AM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Please someone correct me if O am wrong, but I always thought determinism is the philisophy that your decisions/actions are predetermined not by a fate of sorts, but by the combination of your genetic predisposition couple with your psychological predisposition (which is constructed out of the experiences in your life), and therefore your free will is not actually free in the true sense of the word, but is almost 90% guaranteed to go in the direction that your genetic and psychological predisposition pushes it.

Personally, I am a fence sitter on the issue of free wil, because there is absolutely zero evidence either way to show what throughts actual are and how they come about. Since there is no concrete evidence of what a thought is and where it originates from, there is no way to deduce whether free will in humanity is merely highly advanced and complicated instinctual thought, or whether it is actualy somehow free of the unfolding/progression of the force of nature/existence itself.

The only fact is, that no-one has any idea if free will exists in the way most people believe it does. Essentially picking either side from a black and white angle, ie that is DOES or DOES NOT exist, is essentially on par witha  religious belief imo.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Registered: 08/28/09
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Re: freewill and determinism [Re: chakruna]
    #21496006 - 04/03/15 12:53 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

it's all freewill, OP. not that you're given choices upon what matters you're given to face. but it is always up to the person whether they preform poorly, or stingily, or greatly...whether they do what they like, or have to do what they despise because there are no other options. but it's always freewill that led one there.

and everyone's freewill intermingles, leaving desired choices dwindling depending on what freewill people impinge on, in the search for THEIR freewill. and given how much shitty choices people make on a daily basis, basically it might as well be a deterministic world now... save the fact that you can "choose" to say... go out in a blaze of glory.

boy that was fun. i REALLY enjoyed this thread and this "discussion".

more please.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: freewill and determinism [Re: quinn] * 1
    #21499158 - 04/04/15 02:43 AM (6 years, 9 months ago)

I have nothing truly insightful to add to this discussion, other than Hegel's (to me, at least), fairly insightful comment:

"Freedom is the recognition of necessity."

Something to this just rings true to me.  I think we are inevitably bound to fate, at least in terms of the myriad of historical, social, cultural, religious, and parental forces that led us to be created as we are.  Not to mention genetic potential.

BUT:

At the same time we can "choose" to violate the destiny that so-called fate has lined up for us.  This may be a complete illusion, of course, but ignoring that skepticism determined (lol) to lead only to futility and nihilistic apathy, at least allows us to believe that we are making a difference.  A change in our life can hopefully be for the better (and alas, sometimes for the worse).  But it is the simplistic view of free will devoid of any kind of determinism that is the most dangerous.  In order to have the best 'illusion' of freedom, one must first recognize all the chains that bind us to the select, though many number of paths in our lives.  Only then can we attempt to choose which one to take.

:2cents:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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