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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization
    #21492151 - 04/02/15 12:08 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I have built up an extensive collection of medicinal cultures, and I am trying to utilize all of them, but I don't have the space and time to fruit them all. Aside from that, some species, like Lion's Mane, may be more beneficial when consuming mycelium rather than fruitbodies.

My question to all of you is, what would be the best way to utilize liquid cultures for medicinal mycelium production? I have read on aloha that the metabolites in the actual growth medium are typically more valuable than the fruitbodies OR the mycelium. This all becomes somewhat confusing.

I was considering making liquid cultures, and then air drying the entire LC (No straining first, just air dry all of the contents, sugars included), however, I feel that this would probably produce a goo, rather than a powder.

Anyways... thoughts?

Ty!

- Wooof!


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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OfflineWillowHarvest
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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21492918 - 04/02/15 03:41 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Unless you have large vessels in which to incubate jumbo batches of LC, you're far better off growing your mycelium out on grain to maximize your mycelial mileage IMO.  When you incubate grain jars to the point of "super-colonization", most species produce a great deal of metabolites in-vitro.  If done properly, you can incubate your jars to the point of primordia formation and early fruit develoment.  Then you can extract everything together and the resulting extract will contain all the goodies from the mycelium, metabolites, and fruits.

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: WillowHarvest]
    #21493228 - 04/02/15 05:21 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

How would you recommend going about extracting the end product? I have noticed that in paul stamets' host defense capsules, there is actually dried rice that has been colonized. For some reason, I think encapsulating dried colonized birdseed is nasty, but I would do it, if it is worth it.

If you have done, or do some kind of process like this regularly, could you break it down for me?

Ty for the response, it's the best one I've received on this subject so far. I think most people haven't really looked into effectively using their mushrooms medicinally. A lot of the teas, etc lose a lot of important nutrients.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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OfflineWillowHarvest
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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21502802 - 04/04/15 02:52 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I would first like to say that I don’t claim to know everything about medicinal mushroom extraction.  I have been working with and producing medicinal mushroom and herbal extracts for many years, and have spent countless hours researching and reading on the subject.  This has given me knowledge and perspective, and I am happy to share the processes we use to produce our extracts.  I always encourage people to make their own extracts at home if they are willing and able, and to experiment with different preparation processes.  If you do, please share your findings with others.  It is the sharing of such projects and information that make Shroomery great!!!
 
The subject of mycomedicinals can be very confusing to research, mostly because there are mycomedicinal companies out there who are much more interested in profit than truth.  Such companies will tell you that there extracts are the best, and any other extract not prepared using their proprietary process is worthless.  Be wary of these.  There are some great books out there on the subject though, and I highly encourage anyone who is interested in the subject to read them.  When it comes to medicinal mushroom extracts here are a few things I feel everyone should know.  These are points that have consistently backed up by reputable mycomedicinal research:

- In many mushroom species, target medicinal compounds can be more concentrated or solely present in particular growth stages (mycelium, fruit, etc.).  Therefore, a complete or “full spectrum” extract should contain components from all life stages of the fungus, or as many as can be obtained (mycelium, fruits, spores, metabolites).

- The target medicinals in mushrooms are bound by the chitin in the mycelial cell walls.  When we just cook and eat mushrooms, many of these compounds pass through our bodies unabsorbed as the chitin remains mostly intact.  One must make mushrooms a consistent everyday addition to their diet in order to absorb similar levels of medicinals as they would from taking a properly prepared extract (not a bad proposition though IMO if you have them).

- Mushroom extracts are primarily produced as liquids or powders, and effective extraction methods typically used to break down the chitin and release the target medicinals are heat, hot water or steam (pressure cooking), alcohol (ethanol), chemical isolation, or various combinations of the afore-mentioned.  All can be effective when done properly.  Any heat process should not exceed 300 F, as that is where the target medicinals begin to break down.

- Water is good at extracting certain medicinals (Poylsaccharides) and alcohol is good at extracting others (Triterpenoids).  That is not to say that both will not be present in extract using only water or alcohol, just that to fully extract both, both water and alcohol should be used.  Traditionally, liquid extracts using both water and alcohol were prepared by steeping in alcohol first, then boiling the remaining mash, reducing, and combining.  There is evidence now, however, that this is best done in reverse, as the hot water is better at breaking down the chitin.  Essentially, the mushrooms are boiled first, then the mash is steeped in alcohol, giving the alcohol a better opportunity to do its job and get at those triterpenoids.  Christopher Hobbs’, Tradd Cotter’s, and Stamets’ books all contain good information on liquid extract preparation.

- COA’s or “Certficate of Analyses” are useless for all intents and purposes when it comes to medicinal mushroom extracts.  These COA’s are used to allegedly prove the levels of actives (often polysaccharides) that are present in a given extract.  They have proven inaccurate and inconsistent at best, and are more of a marketing tool than anything.  Stamets has a great article on this (Google “Seven Pillars of Immunity” to find it).  Large nutraceutical companies (the biggest offenders IMO) buy extracts of questionable quality from who knows where and are happy to show you a COA showing how great it is.  The problem is the tests are bogus and anyone can print out a BS “official looking” COA.  I always tell people to try and buy their extracts directly from the manufacturer, and to ask them the following questions:

- What is the growth medium used to produce your extract?
- Do your extracts contain mycelium, metabolite, fruitbody, spores or all of the above?
- What method of extraction is used?

If they can’t or won’t answer these questions to your satisfaction, I wouldn’t buy it.  Representatives from the afore-mentioned large nutraceutical companies more often than not, can’t answer any of them.

1. Now, on to our process for producing our mycelial extract powder.  IMO, growing your culture out on grain is the best way to maximize your mycelial mileage and produce quality mycelium-based extracts, so this is how we begin.  We now use 100% non-gmo organic White Sorghum for our extracts because studies have shown it is more thoroughly digested by the mycelium and it is also gluten-free, but any edible grain can be used.  Brown rice is another popular choice.  By using properly hydrated grain and closely controlling atmospheric parameters, grain cultures can be over-incubated to the point of optimum “super-colonization”.  At this point, the mycelial mat is at its’ thickest achievable point and, with many species, significant metabolites have been secreted, and mushrooms have formed in-vitro.  Obviously, not all species will form primordia in-vitro, but many will if properly cultivated.  IMO, this is where the “art” of extract production comes in to play, and it is the part that most interests me.  By screening and specially selecting strains that form the densest mycelial mat, and are willing to fruit in-vitro, the cultivator can maximize the potency of the resulting extract.

2. So, now you have your grain unit properly incubated to the point of optimum super-colonization and lots of good metabolites and/or primordia have formed in-vitro.  What next?  I will use Enoki as an example, as it is a star performer using the above method.  I recently posted a picture of just such a super-colonized jar of Enoki on our Facebook page if you would like to see one.  Next we prepare a tea using 2 oz. of dried ground mature Enoki fruitbodies per gallon of water.  You will need 1 gallon of this tea per 6 lbs. of super-colonized grain.  The tea is brought to a boil, then reduced to 200 F and cooked for 12 hours while covered (slow cookers work great for this small-scale, “low” is typically 200 F).  You will need to add some water to maintain your starting level.  The mushroom pieces are strained off after the cooking process.

3. Once the tea is done, we add our batch of Enoki grain to a large commercial roasting oven (basically just an overgrown commercial slow cooker).  Then we add enough of the Enoki fruitbody tea to cover (again this is about 1 gallon of tea per 6 lbs. super-colonized grain).  The mixture is covered and again set to cook at 200 F for 4 hours.  During this cooking, the grain kernels explode, the mycelium is broken down, and all of the tea is absorbed into the mass, giving you a slurry of medicinal goodness with all of the components of the Enoki life cycle.

4. The slurry is then spread out onto screens and dehydrated at 155 F until thoroughly dried (8 hours).

5. The dried mass is then run through a commercial food processor to chop it into granules.

6. The dried granules are then run through a grain mill to produce the final powder.  There you have it.

If you’d like to go after more of those alcohol soluble compounds, alcohol can be worked into this process in a couple of ways.  You can use a fruitbody-based tincture or tincture/tea combination to cover your super-colonized grain instead of just tea and then cook.  Or, you can completely cover your grain in alcohol and do a pure hot ethanol mycelial extraction.  Obviously the variations on the process are many.  One just needs to figure out what works best for them.

Edited by WillowHarvest (04/05/15 12:59 PM)

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Offlineknomadic_niki
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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: WillowHarvest]
    #21507110 - 04/05/15 05:42 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

:like:


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InvisibleMrGiraffe

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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: knomadic_niki]
    #21507628 - 04/05/15 07:49 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

:threadmonitor:


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: WillowHarvest]
    #21523860 - 04/09/15 12:06 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I have been meaning to read through this since you posted it, but I haven't had the time. Your method sounds truly excellent. It seems to me that the addition of alcohol would be unnecessary, given that you're not filtering any liquids out, and the chitin walls are thoroughly broken down during processing.

For home production, it sounds like I could need a few things. A grain mill, a slow cooker, and some sorghum. Brown Rice does not seem to be an adequate grain to use, because as far as I am aware, it requires the addition of vermiculite.

I was hoping the process would be simpler, but this is certainly doable. I guess I will have to fruit everything to get an extract that is truly full spectrum, and includes the spores, and the fruitbodies. It sounds like one would probably have to take quite a few capsules on a daily basis.

I intend to do this with 5-10 different species of mushroom. Maybe I'll just make enormous batches of each once a year, or something along those lines.

Your input is very much appreciated, it's nice to find some clarity on this subject.

On a side not, when preparing your grains, do you soak them in watered down coffee? Do you add gypsum? Or is it just a plain water soak?

Thank you!


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Offlineknomadic_niki
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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21523924 - 04/09/15 12:25 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

without alcohol, you're missing out on 2 things:

1. extraction of alcohol-soluble compounds like triterpines and resins. water will not extract these from the tissues

2. shelf life. a water extract will spoil within a month unless frozen


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: knomadic_niki]
    #21523955 - 04/09/15 12:35 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

You are correct, if I were making a tincture. However, if you read through his process, the final product is a powder, which will keep indefinitely, in my mind. If the chitin in the cell walls is broken down, you would not need alcohol to extract the triterpenoids, because you body would be able to extract them on its own. Chitin is the only barrier to complete digestion of these products.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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OfflineMrcloudy
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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21524415 - 04/09/15 02:32 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I think sufficient break down of the chitin cell wall would allow efficient absorption from dried fungal matter.

One of the things I want to experiment with is using chitinase to break Ganoderma spores to make there medicinal compounds more attainable. As the Ganoderma spore is said to contain the highest level of the compounds as anywhere else in the reishi fruitbody. Ganoderma spores however need to be broken in order to use these compounds due to having a unique double spore wall.


My plan is to weaken the spore wall with chitinase and then maybe put the liquid spore solution on a stirplate, probably while still in the chitinase mixture. Then filter with a coffee filter.

Working on finding some natural sources of chitinase for my experiments.


As for the liquid culture thing, I think a few strains were actually developed with liquid culture in mind, most notably a strain being passed around labeled Cordyceps militaris, and C.sinensis. Both perform exceptionally fast in liquid culture and grow quite thick. You cannot fruit these strains and I think it is reasonable that you could get more mycelial mass in liquid than you would on a solid substrate, at least in a certain time frame. The cordyceps are ridiculous those two strains I cannot store the liquid culture because it becomes to thick to work with in syringes.

Just for an experiment I may take and make a large jar of cordyceps lc.


--------------------

10 different Ganoderma species from across the USA

AMU

MrCloudys guide to North American GanodermaUpdated A rough guide to North American Ganoderma species, with an emphasis on the laccate species.

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: Mrcloudy]
    #21524774 - 04/09/15 03:54 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I was actually wondering if there was an enzyme available that would break down chitin. I haven't looked into it at all though. Do you suppose chitinase is consumeable? It seems that it would be. I've also considered freezing and thawing multiple times to break down cell walls.

Were you planning on using the liquid from the filtered LC? or the Mycelium? I would think the liquid would be the more useful of the two. I personally would just evaporate the whole thing and encapsulate the resulting matter. Hopefully it would be dry, instead of a goop.

As far as the cordyceps, I happen to be in possession of a C. Militaris culture that gets CRAZY fuzzy on agar. It's super arial. This may be one of the strains you're speaking of. I'm busy getting all my cultures on master slants right now, so I haven't begun any experimentation. I just started getting into edibles/medicinals. I have to say, oysters are about the easiest thing in the world to grow, I have already fruited them! Actually, I'm having more trouble with cubensis than edibles lately! :-| Lion's Mane, cakewalk! lol


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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OfflineMrcloudy
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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21524797 - 04/09/15 03:58 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Chitinase is consumable, I saw a study that suggested it could be useful as a novel antifungal treatment to kill internal fungal infections by inhibiting the chitin in the parasite. I don't know if there has been any trials with this though.

I have noticed that the liquid from my Herecium LCs gets very dark and has a rather pleasant smell. I imagine it is loaded with metabolites.


--------------------

10 different Ganoderma species from across the USA

AMU

MrCloudys guide to North American GanodermaUpdated A rough guide to North American Ganoderma species, with an emphasis on the laccate species.

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: Mrcloudy]
    #21524867 - 04/09/15 04:13 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

The mycelium of Hericium Erinacius is the only place that Erinacines are found within the mushroom. They are not present in the fruitbody. Erinacines are known to be the more effective NGF stimulators between the two (Erinacines and Hericinones). It's good to know that it performs well in LC. I honestly don't like playing with LC's, even though I do have a flowhood now, and I haven't tried since I got it. LC's have always just been trouble for me, but I don't give up on things :smile:

That's very interesting information about chitinase. It sounds quite logical. How is chitinase produced/procured? Is it expensive stuff? I honestly don't know why more extract companies aren't using it. There must be something I'm missing.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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OfflineMrcloudy
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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21525090 - 04/09/15 05:01 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Pure chitinase can be kind of expensive. But there are several organisms that produce chitinase. Puffball mushrooms is one. I suspect the puffballs use it to break down their internal matrix when it comes time to sporelate.

I found an extraction technique online that would yield the pure chitinase, but I am not entirely sure that it needs to be that complicated... but I am not a chemist. I tried a crude acidic extract using citric acid on some Lycoperdon powder. It grew mold, so I am not sure if it was effective. I have thought about adding powdered puffball to agar as a spore germination aid. But then I am also concerned on how it might impact the hyphae that grow from the spore.


--------------------

10 different Ganoderma species from across the USA

AMU

MrCloudys guide to North American GanodermaUpdated A rough guide to North American Ganoderma species, with an emphasis on the laccate species.

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: Mrcloudy]
    #21525629 - 04/09/15 06:59 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

lmao! You and I need our own fully functional commercial sized laboratories to fuck around in, I feel. I will have to look up an extraction technique. I am somewhat capable with basic chemistry. A/B extractions and whatnot. I don't know how complicated it is though, or if it's even worth it. That would be a lot of effort just to try something that might not even work the way you intend it to.

I found some online for $60, I think that's for a gram. At that price it might be worth playin around with it. I just wish that I could test the efficacy of my extract by some measure, other than anecdotal experiences.

http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/sigma/c6137?lang=en&region=US


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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OfflineMrcloudy
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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21525691 - 04/09/15 07:15 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Here is the method I found. They use bird gizzards and such, but the process should be applicable to other chitinase containing organisms as well.

http://www.google.com/patents/US3862007


--------------------

10 different Ganoderma species from across the USA

AMU

MrCloudys guide to North American GanodermaUpdated A rough guide to North American Ganoderma species, with an emphasis on the laccate species.

Edited by Mrcloudy (04/09/15 07:16 PM)

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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: Mrcloudy]
    #21525787 - 04/09/15 07:35 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Hmm, I would definitely need a more elaborate step-by-step to make it happen.

On a side note, I recall you saying that you had the real deal G. Lucidum and G. Lingzhi. Is there any way you might be interested in working out a trade?

I was just talking to Grey, who has the slant you received from Aloha Medicinals, but I'm fairly certain that it was G. Resinaceum.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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OfflineMrcloudy
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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21525827 - 04/09/15 07:43 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

:pm:


--------------------

10 different Ganoderma species from across the USA

AMU

MrCloudys guide to North American GanodermaUpdated A rough guide to North American Ganoderma species, with an emphasis on the laccate species.

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Offlineknomadic_niki
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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: Mrcloudy]
    #21526372 - 04/09/15 09:47 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

you're right, bigbad, if you're talking about powders, you shouldn't need the alcohol. i only read your response and forgot what you were responding too. good stuff, guys.

i have been tossing the idea of buying some chitinase around in my head, too. wouldn't it be nice to have a GC/MS at our disposal to analyse our medicines with? I spoke with a biochem master student friend about analysing some samples for me in their lab but i haven't had the time to do the research and dig up the "fingerprints" of each anticipated medicinal compound in each extract. additionally, i'm not sure how to determine if the compounds will be bioavailable even if they are detected as present. ideas?


--------------------
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In search of sporeless oyster cultures

Edited by knomadic_niki (04/09/15 09:48 PM)

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: knomadic_niki]
    #21527491 - 04/10/15 06:18 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I am not sure how Mass Spectrometer analysis works exactly, so I won't comment on any ways to make the examination more accurate, etc. Willow says that the Certificates of Analysis are mostly bullshit, so I guess we should look into why that is. There are many target compounds that haven't even been documented, so we don't entirely know what we're looking for, aside from polysaccharides and triterpenoids in general, with a few target molecules.

If your friend is working on a masters in biochem, I'm sure he could help us out with some of these questions, or at least tell us where to look for answers! I wish I had a biochemistry friend! lmao... I think everyone does! lol


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Offlineknomadic_niki
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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21528008 - 04/10/15 09:53 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

a ms/gc works best by doing a broad test knowing what possible compounds might be present and identifying those based on fingerprints that have been made already. everything comes out on a chart and there are peaks at specific wavelengths and depending on the size and wavelength of the peak, you can determine if known compounds as present or absent. if there are peaks that are unknown, you can run a specific test to get a more detailed peak and then do research to see if you can find a correlating peak in literature somewhere. i dabbled in it during my undergrad career. it would take a lot of time. our best bet is to focus on the known compounds first, for example beta-d glucans in reishis. at least then we can determine if our extraction techniques are successful. we would need a full blown lab to discover new compounds. i'm not even sure what the process would be.


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Edited by knomadic_niki (04/10/15 09:54 AM)

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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: knomadic_niki]
    #21528359 - 04/10/15 11:29 AM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I think when I get some extra money on hand I might just buy some chitinase enzymes and give it a shot. Maybe I can send you some, and you can have your friend do an analysis on the final product. Then we can patent our new found extraction method, and charge the supplement industry millions of dollars to use it. What do you say? lmao


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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21528479 - 04/10/15 12:04 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

i think that's a great idea! we can do side by side extractions, all other variables constant, and process one with chitinase and one without. my friend would be happy to analyse it. all we have to do is provide the samples and the peaks for a few indicator compounds we expect to see.


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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: knomadic_niki]
    #21528491 - 04/10/15 12:07 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)



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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: knomadic_niki]
    #21528532 - 04/10/15 12:18 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Well, I found a source for some chitinase. Do you think we should give it a try? I'm not sure if the specific chitinase enzyme used might play a roll. I think I will use Willow's method with the Sorghum grains. He said they are the easiest to 'supercolonize', and maybe we could use the C. Militaris strain I have. Actually, maybe a Ganoderma species would be better, considering there are probably more identified compounds in it. In that case, Mr. Cloudy seems to have the best library.

So, in the mean time, while we're colonizing our grains, we should try to figure out the peaks for as many identifiable compounds as we can.

I should get this going! :smile: If I get the enzyme, I will be sure to send you some!


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"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21528536 - 04/10/15 12:20 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I think I'll start some G. Curtisii, since that's the only one I have that is properly identified.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21528616 - 04/10/15 12:44 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

awesome. i have several of mrcloudy's ganoderma strains. there isn't much literature on the medicinal compounds of anything but g.lingzi and g.lucidum but mrcloudy might have some input since the taxonomy is so faulty....

lets so some research for both cordyceps and ganoderma.

lets wait for more input from mrcloudy before you make the purchase. i do already have 5lbs of CS4 grown out on sorghum. i'm going to give it another few weeks, then process it. we'll have to make sure we do research about the compounds in the substrate, too. if there are the same beta d glucans in the sorghum, we may have to use something else as a sub.


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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: knomadic_niki]
    #21528643 - 04/10/15 12:52 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Yes, I am very interested in Mr.Cloudy's input. I have a CS4 culture headed my way also. I think My.Cloudy had a good idea as far as an extraction method goes. We could throw the enzyme into a well developed LC, and put it on a stir plate over night. Then extract in the morning. This would be a quick way to get things done, without having to colonize grains.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21528654 - 04/10/15 12:55 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

It might be a good idea to heat both the control LC and the chitinase LC to somewhere around 200F before extracting, to ensure that the control also had as many extracted compounds as we can get.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

Edited by Bigbadwooof (04/10/15 12:57 PM)

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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21528948 - 04/10/15 02:45 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Sure if you have a decent source go for the chitinase :thumbup: G.lingzhi is probably the best understood Ganoderma, I have not done it in liquid culture yet so I don't know its performance there. But for a species with known compounds that is probably a good bet.

I don't have a library built of of the medicinal compounds... but I can find the papers.


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10 different Ganoderma species from across the USA

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MrCloudys guide to North American GanodermaUpdated A rough guide to North American Ganoderma species, with an emphasis on the laccate species.

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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: Mrcloudy]
    #21528966 - 04/10/15 02:50 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

When I said library, I was referring to your collection of Ganoderma species. It would be awesome if we could figure out a bunch of peaks to look for on the MS test, though! This should be interesting.

I was thinking about this more. I think the reason that chitinase isn't used in commercial supplement manufacturing is probably because it's cost prohibitive, but I may be wrong. You probably wouldn't need a whole lot of enzymes to break down an LC. I don't think they degrade in the process. It might just take longer with less enzymes.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21528970 - 04/10/15 02:52 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Regardless of whether or not it's used in commercial supplement manufacturing, if it proves to be more effective, we could use it on a small scale to produce the highest quality medicinals for ourselves anyway! :smile:


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21528971 - 04/10/15 02:52 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I am wicked curious about the Hericium LC turning dark and sweet smelling too. If we could get that tested that would be awesome. There is a decent amount of research out there and Hericium taxonomy is not as complex as Ganoderma, so far as I know.


--------------------

10 different Ganoderma species from across the USA

AMU

MrCloudys guide to North American GanodermaUpdated A rough guide to North American Ganoderma species, with an emphasis on the laccate species.

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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: Mrcloudy]
    #21528991 - 04/10/15 02:58 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I know that Hericium are often misidentified, and there are many species, but I don't think it's quite the same situation as Ganoderma.

I read a lot of pubmed articles about different medicinal properties of mushrooms, and I am trying to collect the corresponding species, but apparently it's trickier than I had imagined.

I know that Hericium Eranicious produces many molecules that stimulate nerve growth in humans. The mycelium produces more than the fruitbodies. I would really be interested in making an effective extraction of a Lion's Mane LC.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21529094 - 04/10/15 03:28 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

yes, lets test hericium, too. i have to re-familiarize myself with the GCMS process and remember if/how it determines quantities of compounds in a given sample. i'll ask my friend and do some reading.

you would think aloha and fungi perfecti would have done supplement testing. have either of you done research into their results?


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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: knomadic_niki]
    #21529122 - 04/10/15 03:36 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I have not, unfortunately, but I'm sure there is information on their website. I know they outline (somewhat) the process by which they manufacture their supplements, but I am not sure how they test them, or what levels of triterpenoids, polysaccharides, etc. they have discovered.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21529148 - 04/10/15 03:44 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

it would be good to find this information before we duplicate research. i'mstudying for an emt exam this weekend but i should have time next week


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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: knomadic_niki]
    #21529220 - 04/10/15 04:05 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Ok, Good luck, btw!


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21529650 - 04/10/15 06:06 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I am building a collection of studies for Ganoderma compounds, when I get done I will look for Hericium and put them in a dropbox.


--------------------

10 different Ganoderma species from across the USA

AMU

MrCloudys guide to North American GanodermaUpdated A rough guide to North American Ganoderma species, with an emphasis on the laccate species.

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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: Mrcloudy]
    #21529728 - 04/10/15 06:23 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I can look into Hericium, while you're looking at Ganoderma.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21529783 - 04/10/15 06:35 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I made it 4 pages in and gave up, there are too many studies! I will upload what I selected and wade through that to see what might be useful. I downloaded things that I think should have the chemical structures in them, but haven't read any of them yet.

A link to the dropbox.


--------------------

10 different Ganoderma species from across the USA

AMU

MrCloudys guide to North American GanodermaUpdated A rough guide to North American Ganoderma species, with an emphasis on the laccate species.

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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: Mrcloudy]
    #21529925 - 04/10/15 07:12 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

I think what we're after is a list of mass spectrometer peak values for different molecules that we an compare side by side to knomadic's friends data, so we know what to look for.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21530057 - 04/10/15 07:49 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

yes, that is correct. which compounds have been identified as medicinal and what are their peaks.

and, any relevant research and analyses performed to determine the medicinal compound content of extracts and supplements. if we can find studies done by aloha testing the efficacy of their extraction methods, that would be great. or, independent research like we are trying to do. i can see if i can gain access to my friend's scholarly archive account with the university library so i can search peer reviewed journals and such. it just might take me a little while to get it done.


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Edited by knomadic_niki (04/10/15 07:49 PM)

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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: knomadic_niki]
    #21530092 - 04/10/15 07:55 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

yea, we don't need chemical structures. we need peak values. so maybe you can limit your search to those conducted via GC/MS, mrcloudy...

we actually need three separate searches:
1. what compounds do we want to extract from each fungi
2. are there any other studies that have already measured the amount of said compounds found in extracts with "x" extraction process
3. if the studies don't exist, what are the peak values for those compounds so we can send in samples and see if we are effectively extracting the desired compounds

it would also serve us well to search and see if anyone else has tried extracting with chitinase before


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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: knomadic_niki]
    #21530269 - 04/10/15 08:21 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

My gf got home like an hour ago... so I cant do shit til tomorrow lol... I get too carried away with this kind of shit, and she freaks out, so.. til then, fellas!


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
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"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21530299 - 04/10/15 08:29 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

Some of those studies should have the peaks in them, I have not gone through them yet though. I downloaded the ones that I thought were most likely to contain the information we are after.

I know some of them used High Performance Liquid Chromatography instead of Gas chromatography.


--------------------

10 different Ganoderma species from across the USA

AMU

MrCloudys guide to North American GanodermaUpdated A rough guide to North American Ganoderma species, with an emphasis on the laccate species.

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Re: Medicinal Liquid Culture Utilization [Re: Mrcloudy]
    #21530357 - 04/10/15 08:43 PM (8 years, 11 months ago)

HPLC, as far as i know, is used for inorganic compounds like metals. GCMS is for organic compounds. i could be wrong.

mrcloudy, i just took a look at the drop box, you've been busy!

see you tomorrow, bigbad (btw, i'm not a fella :lol:)


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