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jewunit
Brutal!


Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 34,264
Loc: Ohio
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Re: Should there be a law preventing this? [Re: Patlal]
#21488697 - 04/01/15 05:05 PM (9 years, 1 month ago) |
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Patlal said:
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jewunit said: What about places that don't want to/can't hire full time employees for other reasons. Lots of restaurants, for example, are full of people who only want to work part time. You're essentially forcing employees to work 30 hours even if they don't want to.
I gave one idea. I didn't elaborate it in its ull possible extent. Obviously idiots will think that I want to completely remove every rights from corporation and turn everything into hippie land.
Haha, what? I'm pointing out a flaw in such a blanketed law. I suppose that makes me an idiot.
There wouldn't be a way to tell if someone is hiring 2 employees simply to skirt giving benefits or not. Additionally you make it sound like the companies are choosing. There is no choice. If you work 30 hours a week the company has to give you insurance options.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: Should there be a law preventing this? [Re: millzy]
#21488743 - 04/01/15 05:20 PM (9 years, 1 month ago) |
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> the assumption that government is incapable of deciding what's best for everyone involved in business - not just business owners - seems a bit fallacious to me, if not entirely untrue because business owners benefit from a good number of rules that allow business to take place.
So the fact there are good laws in place that almost everyone agrees with like enforcing contracts means that govt knows what is best and should decide everything?? That is a logical fallacy taken to extreme. Its not either / or, not govt decides everything or nothing. There are areas govt needs to regulate like speed limits, like regulating unlicensed contractors that do a shoddy job, etc.
However, the grandiose idea that govt should outlaw part time jobs and decide who should get what is nonsense. Its creeping big brotherism and people in cuba, Russia, etc are none too happy with the logical conclusion to govt creep. You wouldn't be either, you would say something like "I only meant good laws..." but when you let govt control everything there is no stopping them.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,416
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Re: Should there be a law preventing this? [Re: Stonehenge]
#21488747 - 04/01/15 05:24 PM (9 years, 1 month ago) |
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i never said government should decide "everything". that's your interpretation. nice strawman by the way if we're going to point out fallacies. i said government is capable of making decisions on some things. again, total black and white thinking here without any nuance whatsoever.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: Should there be a law preventing this? [Re: millzy]
#21488797 - 04/01/15 05:37 PM (9 years, 1 month ago) |
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So you didn't say this?
> the assumption that government is incapable of deciding what's best for everyone involved in business - not just business owners - seems a bit fallacious to me
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,416
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Re: Should there be a law preventing this? [Re: Stonehenge]
#21488888 - 04/01/15 05:56 PM (9 years, 1 month ago) |
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i did say that. but if you took from that that i'm advocating a totalitarian state then you are either mistaken or attempting to argue against a deliberately distorted version of my point. i'm pretty sure i mentioned earlier in this thread that i'm not for tyranny of any kind.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: Should there be a law preventing this? [Re: millzy]
#21488941 - 04/01/15 06:09 PM (9 years, 1 month ago) |
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No, you just think the govt should decide what is best for everyone.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Adden

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 39,201
Loc:
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Re: Should there be a law preventing this? [Re: Gilgamesh18]
#21488966 - 04/01/15 06:18 PM (9 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Gilgamesh18 said:
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ThatKidWithTheFace said:
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millzy said: i don't even understand this line of dogma some of you guys tow. let's give companies god-like powers along with zero culpability, allow them do whatever they want and hope for the best while reducing the state to a toothless circus of imbecility and corruption. companies are people, and people should be held to strict standards, especially when those people operate on such a huge scale and affect so many lives. when i see people talk about the "free market", all they really seem to be talking about is allowing companies to promote injustice and suffering, both home and abroad, with impunity. is this really the world we want?
What's wrong with that?
Why shouldn't corporations be allowed to do whatever they want?
The government causes far more suffering and harm than any corporate entity.
Yeah.. no...
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: Should there be a law preventing this? [Re: Gilgamesh18]
#21488973 - 04/01/15 06:20 PM (9 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Gilgamesh18 said:
Do you just build regualr houses then? I figured there would be little space in nyc for regular homes.
I build and remodel houses in Westchester County. Sometimes, rarely, I do a job in the city. I did this restaurant a few years ago.
http://www.valbellarestaurants.com/downtown/
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jewunit
Brutal!


Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 34,264
Loc: Ohio
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Re: Should there be a law preventing this? [Re: Stonehenge]
#21488982 - 04/01/15 06:23 PM (9 years, 1 month ago) |
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Stonehenge said: No, you just think the govt should decide what is best for everyone.
Where did he say that?
Can and should mean two different things.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: Should there be a law preventing this? [Re: koods]
#21488985 - 04/01/15 06:25 PM (9 years, 1 month ago) |
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koods said:
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zappaisgod said:
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koods said: Let's include anyone who is in a 28% tax bracket who only pays 15% on capital gains. That is the real welfare in this country. Rich people getting tax breaks on money earning money while everyone else has to pay the full fare for the money they make actually working.
Well that's pretty stupid since the company already paid corporate taxes before it even got to the capital gains disbursement part. You really have no fucking idea what you are talking about.
What are you talking about? You think a corporation pays taxes when its stock price rises? I don't think you understand how finance works.
The stock price has nothing to do with dividends. Do you not think that the taxes paid by a company affects its profitability or stock price?
You are as free as a billionaire to speculate in the stock market. Knock yourself out.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: Should there be a law preventing this? [Re: Adden]
#21488996 - 04/01/15 06:26 PM (9 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
TEMPLAR PALADIN said:
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Gilgamesh18 said:
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ThatKidWithTheFace said:
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millzy said: i don't even understand this line of dogma some of you guys tow. let's give companies god-like powers along with zero culpability, allow them do whatever they want and hope for the best while reducing the state to a toothless circus of imbecility and corruption. companies are people, and people should be held to strict standards, especially when those people operate on such a huge scale and affect so many lives. when i see people talk about the "free market", all they really seem to be talking about is allowing companies to promote injustice and suffering, both home and abroad, with impunity. is this really the world we want?
What's wrong with that?
Why shouldn't corporations be allowed to do whatever they want?
The government causes far more suffering and harm than any corporate entity.
Yeah.. no...

No. He is right.
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,416
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Re: Should there be a law preventing this? [Re: Stonehenge]
#21489006 - 04/01/15 06:28 PM (9 years, 1 month ago) |
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Stonehenge said: No, you just think the govt should decide what is best for everyone.
no, i think government should make rules for companies to operate under in certain areas, namely those of deep human concern (e.g. the environment, employee rights and benefits, discrimination etc.).
oh, and amazing work zappa!
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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A Day InThe Life
Jack of All


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1,175
Loc: Canada
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Re: Should there be a law preventing this? [Re: zappaisgod]
#21489016 - 04/01/15 06:31 PM (9 years, 1 month ago) |
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I used to work part-time jobs like this where they have you work just below the full-time amount to avoid shelling out benefits. You know what I did? Got a better, full-time job that has benefits.. Not only that, it grows my skills so I can go find another similar job if I wanted to or happen to lose this one. Pays better too.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: Should there be a law preventing this? [Re: millzy]
#21489024 - 04/01/15 06:34 PM (9 years, 1 month ago) |
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Thank you. I didn't do everything there but I did a lot. I'm pretty good at what I do.
Aside from that I believe in torts. If a company does wrong sue them and rape them. I'm also not a big fan of the corporate veil.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Quote:
A Day InThe Life said: I used to work part-time jobs like this where they have you work just below the full-time amount to avoid shelling out benefits. You know what I did? Got a better, full-time job that has benefits.. Not only that, it grows my skills so I can go find another similar job if I wanted to or happen to lose this one. Pays better too.
Sounds like somebody is taking charge of his life. What a fucking concept.
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Patlal
You ask too many questions



Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,849
Loc: Ottawa
Last seen: 4 hours, 9 minutes
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Re: Should there be a law preventing this? [Re: zappaisgod]
#21489065 - 04/01/15 06:40 PM (9 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Gilgamesh18 said:
Do you just build regualr houses then? I figured there would be little space in nyc for regular homes.
I build and remodel houses in Westchester County. Sometimes, rarely, I do a job in the city. I did this restaurant a few years ago.
http://www.valbellarestaurants.com/downtown/
Holy shit.
Did you do the stair railings?????
If so, you are a god right now
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,416
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Quote:
A Day InThe Life said: I used to work part-time jobs like this where they have you work just below the full-time amount to avoid shelling out benefits. You know what I did? Got a better, full-time job that has benefits.. Not only that, it grows my skills so I can go find another similar job if I wanted to or happen to lose this one. Pays better too.
abandoning our ideals and convictions will not solve our problems, neither will running away from them. if we let bad companies set the standard, we're all going to be looking for other jobs.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Quote:
A Day InThe Life said: I used to work part-time jobs like this where they have you work just below the full-time amount to avoid shelling out benefits. You know what I did? Got a better, full-time job that has benefits.. Not only that, it grows my skills so I can go find another similar job if I wanted to or happen to lose this one. Pays better too.
There you go. Get a job, gain experience, don't worry about what you make to start then when you get experience and get good if they don't give you a raise then find something better. If pat had his way the part time jobs would be gone.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: Should there be a law preventing this? [Re: Patlal]
#21489172 - 04/01/15 06:59 PM (9 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Patlal said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Gilgamesh18 said:
Do you just build regualr houses then? I figured there would be little space in nyc for regular homes.
I build and remodel houses in Westchester County. Sometimes, rarely, I do a job in the city. I did this restaurant a few years ago.
http://www.valbellarestaurants.com/downtown/
Holy shit.
Did you do the stair railings?????
If so, you are a god right now
Hell fuck no. I did all of the framing and a shit ton of coordination. The stair rails were no big deal. They made them off site and shipped them in with the stairs. There was a lot harder shit going on than that.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: Should there be a law preventing this? [Re: millzy]
#21489185 - 04/01/15 07:02 PM (9 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
millzy said:
Quote:
A Day InThe Life said: I used to work part-time jobs like this where they have you work just below the full-time amount to avoid shelling out benefits. You know what I did? Got a better, full-time job that has benefits.. Not only that, it grows my skills so I can go find another similar job if I wanted to or happen to lose this one. Pays better too.
abandoning our ideals and convictions will not solve our problems, neither will running away from them. if we let bad companies set the standard, we're all going to be looking for other jobs.
Don't be a bitch. If you don't like working under the conditions employers you know enact, go into business for yourself. Why is this such a difficult concept?
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