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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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education system=valve for economy * 3
    #21428105 - 03/18/15 06:52 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

A university education has become more about preparing for a job than about producing a well rounded, well informed individual. And to this end, its true sociological purpose is to regulate the job market and keep it under control, as without this function there would be far more applicants than jobs. Because of this, graduate school is becoming more and more necessary. Twenty years ago you could get a much higher salary straight out of an undergraduate program than you can now, and even those who had no college education had appreciably more options than they do today. In order to avoid a rather catastrophic situation, our educational institutions have morphed into a reductive valve for the economy. The higher-paying jobs you could get before now require a graduate degree to even be considered for a position. Extrapolated ten or fifteen years down the line, you'll virtually need a Ph.D. to be a manager at a McDonald's! It is a real problem that no one seems to want to talk about, with the exception of a select few. By forcing individuals -- who previously might have only opted for an undergraduate degree -- into graduate school, you delay their entrance into the economy and therefore stave off higher unemployment and a messy situation that would be very difficult to manage. Eventually the system will no longer be able to regulate the job market in this way, and then.... What?


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: education system=valve for economy [Re: DividedQuantum] * 3
    #21428304 - 03/18/15 07:31 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

The university system has never quite fit comfortably within the capitalist system.  It's a holdover from feudalism (probably one of the best things the feudal system produced), and has long been in tension with capitalism, struggling to adapt to the needs of the market economy while still maintaining the ideals on which they were founded.  The liberal arts were once considered to be of greater importance than technical degrees.  The reason was that they contributed to culture rather than the job market.  The job market doesn't need a bunch of philosophers, sociologists, and historians, but our culture definitely does.  The job market was once able to accommodate this because there were few enough people going to college that those who did were highly valued in the job market regardless of their major.  That's not the case anymore.  The truth is, today it's a much better financial investment to go to trade school than a university.  The university system has even begun to eat its own.  It was once the case that those who really wanted to pursue the humanities as a career could get their PhD and become a professor.  But that market has become so saturated that you're lucky to become an adjunct professor at a community college.  It was sadly inevitable that the university system would eventually fall prey to the instrumental logic of capitalism, but perhaps it's about time to seek some alternative.


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: education system=valve for economy [Re: Silversoul] * 1
    #21429488 - 03/19/15 03:20 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Academic.

Inflation.

Now we've got gobs of people with masters degrees fighting over dwindling positions just about everywhere. The only thing increasing is the debt.

Quote:

Silversoul said:
The job market doesn't need a bunch of philosophers, sociologists, and historians, but our culture definitely does.

The truth is, today it's a much better financial investment to go to trade school than a university.




This.


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: education system=valve for economy [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #21432996 - 03/19/15 07:20 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

I graduated from college 40 years ago this June.  Hell I am old.  My university keeps sending me stuff all the time begging for money.  It's getting old.  Ha ha.  It's been old for some time.  Waste of time, paper, and just their hand out all the time asking.  How about you send me some of your endowment, you greedy bastards?


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Anxiety is what you make it.

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InvisibleKurt
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Re: education system=valve for economy [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #21434341 - 03/20/15 01:30 AM (9 years, 1 month ago)

And how about the price of textbooks these days.

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OfflineTheMovement
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Re: education system=valve for economy [Re: Kurt]
    #21438559 - 03/21/15 07:09 AM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kurt said:
And how about the price of textbooks these days.



How about the fact that most of the required texts for my classes are written by my professors?  Or they had a hand in writing it.  These books cost exorbitant amounts of money.  If any of them actually desired to spread knowledge, their books would be available online for free.


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: education system=valve for economy [Re: TheMovement] * 2
    #21438589 - 03/21/15 07:50 AM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

TheMovement said:
Quote:

Kurt said:
And how about the price of textbooks these days.



How about the fact that most of the required texts for my classes are written by my professors?  Or they had a hand in writing it.  These books cost exorbitant amounts of money.  If any of them actually desired to spread knowledge, their books would be available online for free.




I agree to an extent in regards to the prices themselves, but I've always had an issue with the belief that just because people want to assist in providing knowledge and information to others, they should do so for free.

Or, if they won't, they aren't truly interested in helping people.

I used to feel this way, until I realized that said person would have to go work in a grocery store to pay rent, AND write that book for free on the side. You're going to get a pretty shitty book in that situation. Imagine if Carl Sagan had to work at Whole Foods to pay his rent because people didn't value his books or teaching enough to pay him for doing so. Obviously that's a stretch of an example, but still.

I genuinely feel most of society would rather have people have to suffer through unappealing work to make their way just because that's what THEY have to do for themselves. People with skills and talent should be rewarded and encouraged for making an effort to assist humanity, not berated because their work doesn't involve lifting boxes in a warehouse for 70+ hours a week.

Narrow-minded economic "realities" that exist only to benefit a small, minute group of wealthy people who TRULY don't care about you.

This post was in no way directed at you, TheMovement. Just speaking some thoughts!


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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InvisibleKurt
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Re: education system=valve for economy [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #21440055 - 03/21/15 03:58 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

People who pursue knowledge in principle often end up working with their hands, maybe out in the field or in some craft, and that becomes in a certain way their virtue. (Whereas episteme was said by Plato to be the virtue, strictly speaking.)

Thre are complicated implications or ramifications in having a society value knowledge, because in general or ideal consideration (like say in one's life) it is actually in some ways difficult to seek to value knowledge. It is spontaneous (as Aristotle said) and yet it is difficult.

So can we look to our liberal institutions? Maybe if we can the problem is that we must.

Look how much Americans pay for college, compared to other countries in the world. As lunar eclipse said, they even write you letters and call you for more. Some kid on the phone gave me an argument once, about how hard it is for the next generation like I didn't actually pay enough...

There was a recent thread about how something is fucked up about tipping waiters. By analogy, teachers should somehow or some way or another get paid more. We shouldn't have to tip them. That is the tip of the iceberg, (no pun intended.)

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: education system=valve for economy [Re: Kurt]
    #21440183 - 03/21/15 04:38 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

I majored in food science, and later developed food products.  We were told that High Fructose Corn Sugar was "just like honey, pretty much" and metabolized in a similar fashion.  Nothing about how it really is made, and complete lies about what it is, and how it is metabolized.  This is just one example of what goes on at places of higher learning.  You can bet corporations that developed HFCS had their input with the professors.

Here's a great link, and one guy who fought the corporation and basically lost, but maintained his integrity.

www.atrazinelovers.com


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Anxiety is what you make it.

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OfflineWithinity
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Re: education system=valve for economy [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #21464135 - 03/27/15 04:28 AM (9 years, 1 month ago)

I think the way its going is towards machines/computers taking most jobs across a wide variety of industries , today its manual labor and truck driving tomorrow its doctors and accountants then the rest.

Last time i was at a doctor and i told him my symptoms trying to figure out what was wrong with me , he simply punched it into Google and read me the same shit i read for myself before booking the appointment. Go figure. :shrug:

If a machine can achieve the same result a person can (even better in some cases)but cost less money to maintain in the process, we will surly become expendable.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: education system=valve for economy [Re: Withinity]
    #21464842 - 03/27/15 09:56 AM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Outstanding point, Withinity.  Yes, as the population increases, coupled with machine intelligence and automation coming more fully online, there won't be any more jobs.  So we're going to have to organize society around something other than employment.  It would help us out a lot if any of our leaders dared to talk about this, but it would probably scare people, thus they remain silent.  Huge crisis coming up if we don't start planning now.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: education system=valve for economy [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21467809 - 03/27/15 09:11 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Huge crisis coming up if we don't start planning now.




Oh yes. But I feel we are so knee-jerk in our reactions as a species I feel we won't start working on this until it's too late.


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Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: education system=valve for economy [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #21467870 - 03/27/15 09:21 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quite correct, indeed.  I give a horrendous, pathetic, too-little-too-late approach to this, on behalf of modern man and his leadership, 1-1000 odds.  I admit it's a little long, but you've got to have takers.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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InvisiblehTx
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Re: education system=valve for economy [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21468911 - 03/28/15 02:03 AM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
A university education has become more about preparing for a job than about producing a well rounded, well informed individual. And to this end, its true sociological purpose is to regulate the job market and keep it under control, as without this function there would be far more applicants than jobs. Because of this, graduate school is becoming more and more necessary. Twenty years ago you could get a much higher salary straight out of an undergraduate program than you can now, and even those who had no college education had appreciably more options than they do today. In order to avoid a rather catastrophic situation, our educational institutions have morphed into a reductive valve for the economy. The higher-paying jobs you could get before now require a graduate degree to even be considered for a position. Extrapolated ten or fifteen years down the line, you'll virtually need a Ph.D. to be a manager at a McDonald's! It is a real problem that no one seems to want to talk about, with the exception of a select few. By forcing individuals -- who previously might have only opted for an undergraduate degree -- into graduate school, you delay their entrance into the economy and therefore stave off higher unemployment and a messy situation that would be very difficult to manage. Eventually the system will no longer be able to regulate the job market in this way, and then.... What?



Very nice.

I think this points to the eventual emergence of a new system -- at least this has to happen in order for any sort of progress. Its very likely all of human affairs work in accordance with Godels strange loops.
That is to say, the system of human affairs reaches a level of maximum complexity, implodes, and starts over. Clearly we are approaching some sort of limit here.
To make it out of the loop, to avoid implosion, a novel system must develop, one which is a clear evolution from the previous one.
I think it would have to be one which resembles a sort of anarchy of abundance. Where technology, AI, robots and what have you, generate what we would consider 'wealth'...aka doing the jobs required to keep society afloat. And a much more (even more) pervading leisure society comes about.

I don't know.
On another note, perhaps this is an indicator of the importance of creativity. And this isn't something you can teach.
A person can manage all kinds of education, all the way up past PhD, but then, what good is all of that knowledge if you are not creating something.

I think its all going quite well and accordingly...but then again, I am an admitted optimist.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.

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OfflineKuhl
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Re: education system=valve for economy [Re: hTx]
    #21471377 - 03/28/15 06:49 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

With the development of language, writing and reading became a skill few once had. The education system was established to preserve the lessons and findings of researchers and professors alike. Today the education institutions has carried on its tradition of preserving that knowledge in libraries and the internet.

The value to be qualified with a degree from a university is for an individual to display his or her persistence and development of self-discipline to perform in a work environment for a promising employer who can satisfy that need.

In order to filter out students who are not pursuing doctor level knowledge of their fields, a state ought to restructure more to the style of Germany's education system. This allows students with their abilities to be organized into an accepted method of being instructed and feeling proud of one's role in society.


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Edited by Kuhl (03/28/15 06:50 PM)

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