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InvisibleDiploidM
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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Swiss Bank UBS: Too Big To JAIL?
    #21450031 - 03/24/15 06:39 AM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Last week, a top Justice Department official issued a tough warning to banks and other corporations that repeatedly commit crimes...

Criminal convictions can be a death sentence for big companies, as the 2002 guilty verdict of CPA firm Arthur Andersen showed. So U.S. officials have increasingly turned to the deferred prosecution agreement. It works like this: Prosecutors hold off charging a company with a crime. In return the company promises to reform...

U.S. officials are now investigating UBS and Barclays for manipulating currency rates at a time when they were already operating under a deferred prosecution agreement for manipulating interest rates. -- NPR




We've been told by the Citizens United decision that corporations are people. So how is it that if I repeatedly get caught committing a serious crime, I likely will lose everything... career, home, freedom, savings, family, everything. I would be ruined.

But when a corporation (a person) repeatedly commits a serious crime, it's given a "tough warning" and a fine. Then it's off the hook, often with no admission of guilt and sealed proceedings to protect the corporation-person from embarrassment.

WHAT?

Can you imagine some poor black guy arrested up for selling an illegal plant not only getting off with a "tough warning" but also having the record automatically sealed so his reputation isn't harmed? I can't.

So how does justice work when a wealthy corporation-person gets a slap on the wrist for a multi-million dollar crime while a poor human-person goes to prison for a petty crime? Something smell like shit.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Swiss Bank UBS: Too Big To JAIL? [Re: Diploid]
    #21450059 - 03/24/15 07:03 AM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Just found this:

Quote:

Barclays will also be fined but they are still negotiating their punishment
Bankers were rigging the £3.5trillion-a-day foreign exchange markets
Anyone found guilty of manipulating the Forex market could face jail
30 traders have been sacked or suspended but none have been arrested
Bankers colluded on forums to share information on clients to make cash
Messages on forums bragged about making 'free money' and bonuses




WHAT?

Since when do convicted felons get to "negotiate" their punishment?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineMental Taco
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Re: Swiss Bank USB: Too Big To JAIL? [Re: Diploid]
    #21450109 - 03/24/15 07:44 AM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Fucking ridiculous.
But not surprising, our justice system isnt fair.
Ive know people who get felony 5 posession charges, theyve had there lives ruined because of it interfering with getting hired. Just for having a plant in there posession.
But these big businesses got money so they can do whatever they want.


--------------------
Did you not know that the royal hunting grounds are always forbidden?

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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Registered: 03/02/15
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Re: Swiss Bank USB: Too Big To JAIL? [Re: Mental Taco]
    #21450126 - 03/24/15 07:50 AM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mental Taco said:
Fucking ridiculous.
But not surprising, our justice system isnt fair.
Ive know people who get felony 5 posession charges, theyve had there lives ruined because of it interfering with getting hired. Just for having a plant in there posession.
But these big businesses got money so they can do whatever they want.




The tragedy is those people are reprimanded for plants, while the other group actively destroys the planet and causes direct harm to other people.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Swiss Bank USB: Too Big To JAIL? [Re: Mental Taco]
    #21450128 - 03/24/15 07:51 AM (9 years, 1 month ago)

EVERY major bank has committed seriis felonies on scales hundreds of times higher than would be required to jail you or me for life.

But they get away with it because, like many other things, our judicial system is fucked.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Swiss Bank USB: Too Big To JAIL? [Re: Diploid]
    #21451500 - 03/24/15 02:27 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

True, and very good points. It illustrates how justice is for sale because the rich defendant even if a person gets a much better deal than the poor one and rich corporations get even better deals.

The dirtbag in power has gone after pot more than any previous president after promising the opposite. He approves all these shady deals you talk about. The underlings take the heat if things don't work out and if they do, he's there for the photo op.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Swiss Bank USB: Too Big To JAIL? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21451507 - 03/24/15 02:28 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

:picard:  It never ends.  How are you going to put a legally fictional entity in jail?  All you can do is sue it for recovery.  After that you can go after certain individuals for criminal activity but the standard for a criminal conviction is much much higher than it is for a civil action.

Why do we have so many incredibly ignorant people here?  I blame the liberal education system.  Your teachers were morons.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Swiss Bank USB: Too Big To JAIL? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21451518 - 03/24/15 02:29 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

>How are you going to put a legally fictional entity in jail?

You put the executives in jail who committed crimes and you hit the corp with such huge fines they go under. And or other sanctions.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Swiss Bank USB: Too Big To JAIL? [Re: Diploid]
    #21451540 - 03/24/15 02:34 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Just found this:

Quote:

Barclays will also be fined but they are still negotiating their punishment
Bankers were rigging the £3.5trillion-a-day foreign exchange markets
Anyone found guilty of manipulating the Forex market could face jail
30 traders have been sacked or suspended but none have been arrested
Bankers colluded on forums to share information on clients to make cash
Messages on forums bragged about making 'free money' and bonuses




WHAT?

Since when do convicted felons get to "negotiate" their punishment?



It hasn't been convicted yet.  Accused felons pretty much always get to negotiate their punishment.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
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Re: Swiss Bank USB: Too Big To JAIL? [Re: Enlil]
    #21451603 - 03/24/15 02:47 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

The difference being most accused felons can't negotiate an hundred million dollar fine in lieu of prison time.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Swiss Bank USB: Too Big To JAIL? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21451654 - 03/24/15 02:58 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

That's because prison time is an option.  Since a corporation can't be put in prison, it's going to have to be a fine.  100 million dollar fine is nothing to sneeze at.  I'm sure every corporation would choose prison time over a fine if that was an option.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Swiss Bank USB: Too Big To JAIL? [Re: Enlil]
    #21451668 - 03/24/15 03:00 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

It depends on what the crime is. By allowing corporations to settle for fines that are less than the profits they made by breaking the law, were making it economically advantageous to commit crime. And it shows. Are there any big banks which haven't committed fraud in the last decade?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Swiss Bank USB: Too Big To JAIL? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21451682 - 03/24/15 03:02 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Probably, but I wouldn't be able to say for sure. 

So, you really think that a corporation should disgorge all profits if they break the law, even if those profits aren't from the criminal activity?  I only ask because that seems like a very harsh sense of justice.  That'd be like taking everything a person owns because he stole a bag of chips from a liquor store.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
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Re: Swiss Bank USB: Too Big To JAIL? [Re: Enlil]
    #21451692 - 03/24/15 03:04 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

To be equivalent to the hypothetical guy selling weed in my example whose life and savings were ruined by the punishment, UBS would have to be ruined as well, not fined in exchange for a promise to behave (a promise they subsequently broke). That would be justice.

Arthur Anderson LLP was ruined. That's justice. UBS is getting a kiss on the ass and a cookie. So is Barclays.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Swiss Bank USB: Too Big To JAIL? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21451695 - 03/24/15 03:04 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
>How are you going to put a legally fictional entity in jail?

You put the executives in jail who committed crimes and you hit the corp with such huge fines they go under. And or other sanctions.




They do get hit with huge fines but are you still so ignorant that you do not understand the standard of proof required for a criminal conviction?  Fucking stop and get your head out of your ass.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Swiss Bank USB: Too Big To JAIL? [Re: Diploid]
    #21451699 - 03/24/15 03:05 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
To be equivalent to the hypothetical guy selling weed in my example whose life and savings were ruined by the punishment, the corporation would have to be ruined as well, not fined in exchange for a promise to behave they subsequently broke. That would be justice.

Arthur Anderson LLP was ruined. That's justice. UBS is getting a kiss on the ass and a cookie. So is Barclays.




So?  What did Barclays and UBS do that should cause their shareholders to lose all of their holdings?


--------------------

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Swiss Bank USB: Too Big To JAIL? [Re: Enlil]
    #21451709 - 03/24/15 03:08 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Probably, but I wouldn't be able to say for sure. 

So, you really think that a corporation should disgorge all profits if they break the law, even if those profits aren't from the criminal activity?  I only ask because that seems like a very harsh sense of justice.  That'd be like taking everything a person owns because he stole a bag of chips from a liquor store.




No, I'm saying fine them enough so that it's no longer profitable to commit crimes.


--------------------

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Swiss Bank USB: Too Big To JAIL? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21451717 - 03/24/15 03:09 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

What crimes did they commit?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Swiss Bank USB: Too Big To JAIL? [Re: Diploid]
    #21451740 - 03/24/15 03:13 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
To be equivalent to the hypothetical guy selling weed in my example whose life and savings were ruined by the punishment, UBS would have to be ruined as well, not fined in exchange for a promise to behave they subsequently broke. That would be justice.

Arthur Anderson LLP was ruined. That's justice. UBS is getting a kiss on the ass and a cookie. So is Barclays.



Okay, so let's look at that.  Who suffers when a corporation is put out of business?  Is it really the people in charge?  Or is it the shareholders?  The people in charge will go get 7 figure jobs elsewhere.  The shareholders will have nothing but worthless stock certificates.

If there is going to be a just punishment for corporate crimes, it has to recognize the realities of the situation.  If executives can be convicted, they should be.  If not, the corporation should be fined, and perhaps be forced to terminate those executives who oversaw the criminal activity.  It doesn't serve justice, however, to punish executive criminality by pilfering the 401(k) of a bunch of retirees.


--------------------
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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Swiss Bank USB: Too Big To JAIL? [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #21451750 - 03/24/15 03:15 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Diploid said:
To be equivalent to the hypothetical guy selling weed in my example whose life and savings were ruined by the punishment, the corporation would have to be ruined as well, not fined in exchange for a promise to behave they subsequently broke. That would be justice.

Arthur Anderson LLP was ruined. That's justice. UBS is getting a kiss on the ass and a cookie. So is Barclays.




So?  What did Barclays and UBS do that should cause their shareholders to lose all of their holdings?




Tough shit for the shareholders. They invested in a crooked enterprise so they pay the price. If you ever pulled your head out of the elephants ass, you would understand that.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755

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