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Offlinetopdog82
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Would it be unfair to take up academic handicaps?
    #21439898 - 03/21/15 03:11 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

When I was in middle school, I had tons of focus issues. I was diagnosed as "ADHD" and given academic provisions. I had shit grades no matter how hard I tried. Eventually through excercise, diet, sleep and meditation, as well as better supplementation, I was able to get much better grades and able to socialize better

I currently am not 100% sure if ADHD exists. I cant say for certain, but recently read a few books which cause me to believe otherwise

I think that our current society which places emphasis on processed junk(omega-6 fats, high GI carbs, low quality meats, gluten, low fiber intake), social media(way too much of it), sedantary lifestyle(lack of excercise), as well as flouride in our water (Im not sure if this a real thing or not yet, havent read enough), all cause our brains and bodies to becme dysfunctional. I believe ADHD is a symptom of poor lifestyle choices we are forced into by the current age

Now that I am in college and have no problems focusing, (still diagnosed as ADHD however), and also think ADHD may not exist at all, would it be unethical to use my diagnosis to get academic provisions? I have been getting lower end B's, and I know that I could get A's with these provisions. I already try my hardest, but the curve is steep. I got a 56% on my Computer Engineering test. It curved to a B-. that is how hard the classes are. I study very hard on my own. Would this be an unfair advantage?

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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Would it be unfair to take up academic handicaps? [Re: topdog82]
    #21439932 - 03/21/15 03:21 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

I'm in a similar situation, used to get such provisions in high school (mainly extra test time) but never set it up in university. I do find pretty often that I will run out of time on exams and miss questions I would otherwise have been able to answer.

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OfflineAll We Perceive
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Re: Would it be unfair to take up academic handicaps? [Re: psi]
    #21440410 - 03/21/15 05:46 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Extra time for "ADHD" in a hard curve class is the biggest crock of shit I've ever heard.  I was so fucking pissed that people went and got diagnosed ADHD to get additional time on the exams.  I have met one person who authentically has ADHD in my entire life.  That kid cannot focus for shit.  However, the "diagnosis" is MASSIVELY overdiagnosed.  If you can perform just fine as it seems you can and you use your "diagnosis" to your advantage to boost yourself up above other kids in a hard curve class, that is a super pussy move.  It's like steroids in athletics.  How about just work harder?  Kids these days are so fucking lazy it seriously drives me nuts.


--------------------


"plus they atually think jambands are good or sumthing, so they clearly know absolutely nothing about music, clearly lol" -Bassfreak

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Offlinehealing
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Re: Would it be unfair to take up academic handicaps? [Re: All We Perceive] * 2
    #21440476 - 03/21/15 06:06 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Fuck it. Take anything you can get. Lie, cheat steal. Doesn't matter.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Would it be unfair to take up academic handicaps? [Re: All We Perceive]
    #21440592 - 03/21/15 06:37 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

All We Perceive said:
Extra time for "ADHD" in a hard curve class is the biggest crock of shit I've ever heard.  I was so fucking pissed that people went and got diagnosed ADHD to get additional time on the exams.



Why, were you finding yourself that you didn't have enough time to finish? If not, what does this have to do with you?

IMO exams should be about demonstrating knowledge anyway, not speed. Extra time does not give you any advantage as far as knowing the material, you either know it or you don't. If the students who work the slowest can't demonstrate their knowledge because the time limit is too short, that's fucking bullshit. Ideally the time limit for everyone would be long enough that nobody would need "extra" time, but for various reasons (e.g. staffing) that's not how they have it set up, so if you are one of the people who does run out of time on exams, you have to jump through administrative hoops for the time you need. Meanwhile, there will be other students who studied no harder than you but finished early.

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OfflineAll We Perceive
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Re: Would it be unfair to take up academic handicaps? [Re: psi]
    #21440668 - 03/21/15 07:02 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

psi said:
Quote:

All We Perceive said:
Extra time for "ADHD" in a hard curve class is the biggest crock of shit I've ever heard.  I was so fucking pissed that people went and got diagnosed ADHD to get additional time on the exams.



Why, were you finding yourself that you didn't have enough time to finish? If not, what does this have to do with you?

IMO exams should be about demonstrating knowledge anyway, not speed. Extra time does not give you any advantage as far as knowing the material, you either know it or you don't. If the students who work the slowest can't demonstrate their knowledge because the time limit is too short, that's fucking bullshit. Ideally the time limit for everyone would be long enough that nobody would need "extra" time, but for various reasons (e.g. staffing) that's not how they have it set up, so if you are one of the people who does run out of time on exams, you have to jump through administrative hoops for the time you need. Meanwhile, there will be other students who studied no harder than you but finished early.




We're not talking about just learning material and getting the grade we get.  If that's the case, fine, be a pussy and take all the extra time you need.  We are talking about a hard curve where by netting yourself extra time, you have a concrete advantage over other students who don't cry for more time.  I don't know what classes you've taken with a hard curve, but most of the time, the test is designed so you barely have enough time to finish or you don't finish at all.  Such a test utilizes critical reasoning skills and isn't merely some psychology 101 exam where they make you spit out the most basic information from memory.  Even if it was a really basic test, additional time will allow you to massage your memory until you remember what you couldn't in the allotted normal time period.  Your reasoning sounds like you are one of those people that cry when they don't get a participation trophy.


--------------------


"plus they atually think jambands are good or sumthing, so they clearly know absolutely nothing about music, clearly lol" -Bassfreak

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Offlinehealing
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Re: Would it be unfair to take up academic handicaps? [Re: All We Perceive]
    #21440680 - 03/21/15 07:05 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Who cares? Get the money.


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OfflineAll We Perceive
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Re: Would it be unfair to take up academic handicaps? [Re: healing]
    #21440709 - 03/21/15 07:13 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

:shrug:  Aside from buying into the rancid societal view that success by any means possible is good, winning by the rules gives a certain satisfaction that you don't get via cheating and struggle and winning in a legitimate way builds character, something sorely missing from contemporary life.  This scenario reminds me of the people that simply drive to the top of Pikes Peak and claim victory.  In any event, are they going to give you additional time at your job because you have "ADHD?"  No, they will not.  Might as well learn to do stuff fast now.


--------------------


"plus they atually think jambands are good or sumthing, so they clearly know absolutely nothing about music, clearly lol" -Bassfreak

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Offlinetopdog82
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Re: Would it be unfair to take up academic handicaps? [Re: All We Perceive]
    #21440717 - 03/21/15 07:15 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

All We Perceive said:
Quote:

psi said:
Quote:

All We Perceive said:
Extra time for "ADHD" in a hard curve class is the biggest crock of shit I've ever heard.  I was so fucking pissed that people went and got diagnosed ADHD to get additional time on the exams.



Why, were you finding yourself that you didn't have enough time to finish? If not, what does this have to do with you?

IMO exams should be about demonstrating knowledge anyway, not speed. Extra time does not give you any advantage as far as knowing the material, you either know it or you don't. If the students who work the slowest can't demonstrate their knowledge because the time limit is too short, that's fucking bullshit. Ideally the time limit for everyone would be long enough that nobody would need "extra" time, but for various reasons (e.g. staffing) that's not how they have it set up, so if you are one of the people who does run out of time on exams, you have to jump through administrative hoops for the time you need. Meanwhile, there will be other students who studied no harder than you but finished early.




We're not talking about just learning material and getting the grade we get.  If that's the case, fine, be a pussy and take all the extra time you need.  We are talking about a hard curve where by netting yourself extra time, you have a concrete advantage over other students who don't cry for more time.  I don't know what classes you've taken with a hard curve, but most of the time, the test is designed so you barely have enough time to finish or you don't finish at all.  Such a test utilizes critical reasoning skills and isn't merely some psychology 101 exam where they make you spit out the most basic information from memory.  Even if it was a really basic test, additional time will allow you to massage your memory until you remember what you couldn't in the allotted normal time period.  Your reasoning sounds like you are one of those people that cry when they don't get a participation trophy.



Well I will take it as a "no" haha

You needa calm down man. Ima hard working student. I was merely asking if I was it was "ethical"
And yes. I have gotten a very legitimate diagnosis. I was evaluated by 5-6 psychiatrists on a number of tests and went to an upscale hospital. My parents read up quite a lot and wanted to make sure that I was NOT getting misdiagnosed. They spent quite a lot of money

And after all this, I believe that if there was something called "add" with a distinct physiological basis, I would fit the criteria quite well. But I don't think it exists personally

And yes the classes I take are designed exactly that way. You are given very short time and they expect quite a lot from you in that time

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Offlinetopdog82
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Re: Would it be unfair to take up academic handicaps? [Re: All We Perceive]
    #21440723 - 03/21/15 07:17 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

All We Perceive said:
:shrug:  Aside from buying into the rancid societal view that success by any means possible is good, winning by the rules gives a certain satisfaction that you don't get via cheating and struggle and winning in a legitimate way builds character, something sorely missing from contemporary life.  This scenario reminds me of the people that simply drive to the top of Pikes Peak and claim victory.  In any event, are they going to give you additional time at your job because you have "ADHD?"  No, they will not.  Might as well learn to do stuff fast now.



This I think we can agree on then

And I'm not sure you understand. The average is a C. I am wellll above average. I was merely asking if you thought extra provisions to push me from b level to a level was okay. I like being an a student. I would try other things as well. Ie studying ahead while on break

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OfflineAll We Perceive
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Re: Would it be unfair to take up academic handicaps? [Re: topdog82]
    #21440727 - 03/21/15 07:18 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Sorry, this topic strikes a nerve.  I saw many students who got these "accommodations" who clearly did not have ADHD do well and then brag about their grade.  Whether they would have done well without the accommodations, who knows, but the advantage is distinct.


--------------------


"plus they atually think jambands are good or sumthing, so they clearly know absolutely nothing about music, clearly lol" -Bassfreak

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Offlinetopdog82
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Re: Would it be unfair to take up academic handicaps? [Re: healing]
    #21440732 - 03/21/15 07:19 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

healing said:
Who cares? Get the money.



It isn't miney. It would be extra test time. Or extra tutoring. Who knows?

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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Would it be unfair to take up academic handicaps? [Re: All We Perceive]
    #21440734 - 03/21/15 07:20 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

All We Perceive said:
Quote:

psi said:
Quote:

All We Perceive said:
Extra time for "ADHD" in a hard curve class is the biggest crock of shit I've ever heard.  I was so fucking pissed that people went and got diagnosed ADHD to get additional time on the exams.



Why, were you finding yourself that you didn't have enough time to finish? If not, what does this have to do with you?

IMO exams should be about demonstrating knowledge anyway, not speed. Extra time does not give you any advantage as far as knowing the material, you either know it or you don't. If the students who work the slowest can't demonstrate their knowledge because the time limit is too short, that's fucking bullshit. Ideally the time limit for everyone would be long enough that nobody would need "extra" time, but for various reasons (e.g. staffing) that's not how they have it set up, so if you are one of the people who does run out of time on exams, you have to jump through administrative hoops for the time you need. Meanwhile, there will be other students who studied no harder than you but finished early.




We're not talking about just learning material and getting the grade we get.  If that's the case, fine, be a pussy and take all the extra time you need.  We are talking about a hard curve where by netting yourself extra time, you have a concrete advantage over other students who don't cry for more time.  I don't know what classes you've taken with a hard curve, but most of the time, the test is designed so you barely have enough time to finish or you don't finish at all.  Such a test utilizes critical reasoning skills and isn't merely some psychology 101 exam where they make you spit out the most basic information from memory.  Even if it was a really basic test, additional time will allow you to massage your memory until you remember what you couldn't in the allotted normal time period.  Your reasoning sounds like you are one of those people that cry when they don't get a participation trophy.



I've never encountered this "hard curve" term before, but what you describe sounds to me like a stupid way of evaluating students. I would say the courses I've taken generally involve a fair amount of critical reasoning skills rather than just rote memorization (I'm doing a computer science degree.)

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OfflineAll We Perceive
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Re: Would it be unfair to take up academic handicaps? [Re: psi]
    #21440742 - 03/21/15 07:23 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

I think it's actually fantastic as the best students get the best grades and the grades are as such a reflection of their performance.  The system is basically set around a certain figure like an 82/B- and the students' test grades are statistically curved around that number so the average grade is an 82.  It's basically the converse to the contemporary, collegiate pedagogy of everyone deserves an A for effort.


--------------------


"plus they atually think jambands are good or sumthing, so they clearly know absolutely nothing about music, clearly lol" -Bassfreak

Edited by All We Perceive (03/21/15 07:25 PM)

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Offlinetopdog82
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Re: Would it be unfair to take up academic handicaps? [Re: All We Perceive]
    #21440743 - 03/21/15 07:23 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

All We Perceive said:
Sorry, this topic strikes a nerve.  I saw many students who got these "accommodations" who clearly did not have ADHD do well and then brag about their grade.  Whether they would have done well without the accommodations, who knows, but the advantage is distinct.



Well that settles it. It is pretty damn unethical

And like I said, I don't believe adhd even exists truly

What are your thoughts on Ritalin, adderal, and modafinil?
What about caffeine?
What about piracetam?

What about good diet, exercise and sleep?

Where does one draw the line? I personally don't feel Ritalin or addy are fair by any stretch

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Invisiblepsi
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Re: Would it be unfair to take up academic handicaps? [Re: All We Perceive]
    #21440757 - 03/21/15 07:30 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

All We Perceive said:
I think it's actually fantastic as the best students get the best grades and the grades are as such a reflection of their performance.



OK, well I guess it's good you are happy with the way things are done at the school you went to. :shrug:

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Offlinetopdog82
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Re: Would it be unfair to take up academic handicaps? [Re: psi]
    #21440760 - 03/21/15 07:31 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

All We Perceive said:
I think it's actually fantastic as the best students get the best grades and the grades are as such a reflection of their performance.  The system is basically set around a certain figure like an 82/B- and the students' test grades are statistically curved around that number so the average grade is an 82.  It's basically the converse to the contemporary, collegiate pedagogy of everyone deserves an A for effort.



I personally feel that the current college system pushes it a little too far. It makes it such that someone can't pick up a side job and still be a more technical math/eng/comp sci major. Other than that, I can't argue with it
Quote:

psi said:
Quote:

All We Perceive said:
Quote:

psi said:
Quote:

All We Perceive said:
Extra time for "ADHD" in a hard curve class is the biggest crock of shit I've ever heard.  I was so fucking pissed that people went and got diagnosed ADHD to get additional time on the exams.



Why, were you finding yourself that you didn't have enough time to finish? If not, what does this have to do with you?

IMO exams should be about demonstrating knowledge anyway, not speed. Extra time does not give you any advantage as far as knowing the material, you either know it or you don't. If the students who work the slowest can't demonstrate their knowledge because the time limit is too short, that's fucking bullshit. Ideally the time limit for everyone would be long enough that nobody would need "extra" time, but for various reasons (e.g. staffing) that's not how they have it set up, so if you are one of the people who does run out of time on exams, you have to jump through administrative hoops for the time you need. Meanwhile, there will be other students who studied no harder than you but finished early.




We're not talking about just learning material and getting the grade we get.  If that's the case, fine, be a pussy and take all the extra time you need.  We are talking about a hard curve where by netting yourself extra time, you have a concrete advantage over other students who don't cry for more time.  I don't know what classes you've taken with a hard curve, but most of the time, the test is designed so you barely have enough time to finish or you don't finish at all.  Such a test utilizes critical reasoning skills and isn't merely some psychology 101 exam where they make you spit out the most basic information from memory.  Even if it was a really basic test, additional time will allow you to massage your memory until you remember what you couldn't in the allotted normal time period.  Your reasoning sounds like you are one of those people that cry when they don't get a participation trophy.



I've never encountered this "hard curve" term before, but what you describe sounds to me like a stupid way of evaluating students. I would say the courses I've taken generally involve a fair amount of critical reasoning skills rather than just rote memorization (I'm doing a computer science degree.)



I am personally taking comp science and comp eng classes. Can't decide which major to take up

Im surpised you haven't had a hard curve. The curve is such that the average grade becomes a C, maybe a B- or a B+ depending on the school and dififuclty of the course etc.

I assume our courses must be similar

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Offlinetopdog82
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Re: Would it be unfair to take up academic handicaps? [Re: psi]
    #21440762 - 03/21/15 07:32 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

psi said:
Quote:

All We Perceive said:
I think it's actually fantastic as the best students get the best grades and the grades are as such a reflection of their performance.



OK, well I guess it's good you are happy with the way things are done at the school you went to. :shrug:



I think his gripe is that average students get A's

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OfflineAll We Perceive
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Re: Would it be unfair to take up academic handicaps? [Re: topdog82]
    #21440776 - 03/21/15 07:36 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

That's a tough question.  Coffee/exercise/sleep/good nutrition are important to do well for me.  These things are also accessible to all other students at their leisure.  For me, I didn't find adderall/ritalin to be particularly effective for learning A LOT of information.  I would crash after the end and burn a bunch of time not really processing anything.  I found I could do better without using them with a proper study regiment.  I used them a lot in undergrad though where it was a lot more rote low key memorization and regurgitate.  It's easy to make a bagillion note cards on adderall all night.  I think that the drugs are so ubiquitous in a competitive school setting and easy to get that the advantage is less than getting a huge extra block of time.  It's also good for studying something super fucking boring to keep your attention.  However, not everyone has access to these drugs and it they no doubt benefit some, so I would say that the drugs are also unethical in a competitive setting.


--------------------


"plus they atually think jambands are good or sumthing, so they clearly know absolutely nothing about music, clearly lol" -Bassfreak

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OfflineAll We Perceive
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Re: Would it be unfair to take up academic handicaps? [Re: All We Perceive]
    #21440806 - 03/21/15 07:44 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Hmmmm, now that I think about it more, I think my undergrad use of the drugs was more related to being able to cram a lot of information in short term memory which helped balance my absurd level of partying.  That said, I do not think the drugs aid in long term memory recollection, which is the memory type needed on the exams I took.  I knew the information way better with a long term study regiment when the exam came around.  However, all of my exams in grad school were a single exam at the end of the semester, which was the entire grade for the class. 

Your point about drugs freeing up spare time to put towards other things like a job is an interesting one.  I think someone could ostensibly study with drugs for a quarter semester exam over the couple nights prior to the exam and dominate it better than someone without drugs could in the same situation.  So do we then say that someone with rich parents who pay for school, creating the ability to just study without the distraction of a job is acting unethically when they accept their parents' money?  Surely there are people that have to have a job and that impacts their study regiment.  My grad school forbid people working their first year so that kind of ameliorated that issue but it's interesting nonetheless.


--------------------


"plus they atually think jambands are good or sumthing, so they clearly know absolutely nothing about music, clearly lol" -Bassfreak

Edited by All We Perceive (03/21/15 07:45 PM)

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