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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
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Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind...
    #2143955 - 11/29/03 08:50 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

In my personal experience I've discovered that
Meditation and having a quiet mind can be quite
dangerous. Meditation is an altered state of conciousness
where control is relenquished, much like with drugs.
It's easy in such a state to experience extreeme
terror and despair and then experience a Post Traumatic
Stress Disorder afterwards with the memory strongly
impinted in your mind. Also, even with a relatively
quiet mind, thoughts will inevitably arise (they
need to for us to function in this world), but
since the mind is quiet most of the time those thoughts
will have a pronounced affect. So one may suddenly
"realize" that life is a miserable affair and be
profoundly affected by it. Also, since meditation
involves observing thought, and not counteracting
or reacting in any way, there is no defense mechanism
- e.g. a thought challenging the "misery" of life - so
the original thought is allowed to have a severe impact.
Contemporary New-Ageism advocates Meditation as a panacea,
but I think it has great potential for harm...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: lucid]
    #2143974 - 11/29/03 09:06 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

thoughts will inevitably arise (they
need to for us to function in this world),


No man, sorry but for once i can not honestly* agree with you based on personal experience.... there APPPEARS to be an all knowing  WISDOM that can  and DOES take over in SOME of the higher states of conciousness,everything is put on automatic pilot, you just KNOW enough not to walk against a red light etc, there is no thinking necessary....that's all i'll say here though as i think you know WHY i say this :wink:

* For me not to have said anything would have entailed what I percieve to be deep dishonesty on my part 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #2144174 - 11/29/03 10:58 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Hey Freak,
I respect your opinion, as always :sun:
I'm just wondering how similar the goals of
meditation are to neurosis.
I mean all this talk about losing the self,
that there is only suffering in desire and to
lose all desire etc seem to be the exact
recipe, as described by psychologists, for
painful Depersonalization (loss of self)
and Depression (no desire or interest in anything).


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: lucid]
    #2144197 - 11/29/03 11:14 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

lucid said:

I mean all this talk about losing the self,
that there is only suffering in desire and to
lose all desire etc ~~*seem*~~ to be the exact
recipe, as described by psychologists, for
painful Depersonalization (loss of self)
and Depression (no desire or interest in anything). 




It isn't anything like that at ALL when you're THERE though man! Even the smallest breeze through the leaves of a tree can elicit feelings of ecstacy unlike you(or anyone, don't get defensive on me :wink: )....wolf gets into all this in his chapter "the HIGH Indifference",in Pathways and HE points out that it's easy to see how this state(to one that has not YET experineced it) might seem run parellel to what clinical psychologists call DEPRESSION, when in FACT it is the exact OPPOSITE of depression.... It would be difficult for me to imagine two states more incongruous......
It is truly unfettered and boundless JOY beyond comprehension :smile:
 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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Offlineergot
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #2144247 - 11/29/03 11:59 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

FreakQLibrium is so right (if I interpreted it, correctly). I consider it completely more blissful than caring about the routine of human life (school, work, nuclear family, government, whatever) and also loss of ego-dominance creates so much room for understanding, love, just general admiration of all of nature. A person can stop thinking about "damn, my mortgage payment is due..." and start thinking about the sunset.


--------------------
"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho

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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: ergot]
    #2144906 - 11/29/03 04:44 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ergot said:
FreakQLibrium is so right (if I interpreted it, correctly). I consider it completely more blissful than caring about the routine of human life (school, work, nuclear family, government, whatever) and also loss of ego-dominance creates so much room for understanding, love, just general admiration of all of nature. A person can stop thinking about "damn, my mortgage payment is due..." and start thinking about the sunset.




um, actually, according to the Buddha you would not be thinking
about the sunset... you would not be thinking at all...remember ?
"no-mind"...."quiet mind"...
remember, enlightenment is not positive thinking or thinking
about how beautiful something is....
it's not thinking at all...
allegedly, the claim is that this state of no-thought is
complete and abundant with joy...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: lucid]
    #2144917 - 11/29/03 04:48 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

um, actually, according to the Buddha you would not be thinking
about the sunset... you would not be thinking at all...remember ?
"no-mind"...."quiet mind"...


An excellent point Lucid, i hadn't noticed it B4, but generally i'd say our friend here interpreted very well(probably said it a lot better that i did as well) the original intent of my post :wink: 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #2145053 - 11/29/03 05:51 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Buddha didn't say to not think. In fact Buddhism totally forsakes formless states of absorptive samadhi. This is the whole point of vipissana and shamatha. To merge the mind in the state of samadhi and yet still remain very aware of the arising of thoughts.

You know, Buddhists say if one stays in the formless samadhi then they will reincarnate as an animal.

Finally, meditation really is not for everybody. Not every person can stand the full confrontation of their own psyche. It takes a real intense ability to not flinch in the face of hell. Hell is our mind in this modern world whee one false move and you smash up against a huge framework of artifice. I mean, if you work at McDonalds and you take a quiet moment for yourself then someone screams at you for not moving fast enough. It's hard enough to take breaks from the world to get a chance to meditate. However, once taken, many find it very hard to integrate. So it's always work. Nothing is handed to you on a plate scot free.

If you want to experience samadhi, and live in the world then you have to work twice as hard for it. But that's not a bad thing. At least then you really own the experience. Tha


--------------------
...or something






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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: eve69]
    #2145081 - 11/29/03 06:06 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

eve69 said:
Buddha didn't say to not think.




actually he did. According to the Buddha awareness is very
different from thinking. Note, he said to be "aware" of
arising thoughts (as an impartial observer),
he did NOT say to think over things (i.e. contemplate).
Big difference between the two.

Quote:

eve69 said:
Finally, meditation really is not for everybody. Not every person can stand the full confrontation of their own psyche.




um, according to buddhists the True Nature is blissful, if
that's true why would one NOT want to "confront" it ?

Quote:

eve69 said:
It takes a real intense ability to not flinch in the face of hell. Hell is our mind in this modern world whee one false move and you smash up against a huge framework of artifice.




"frameworkd of aritifice" ? :confused:

Quote:

eve69 said:
I mean, if you work at McDonalds and you take a quiet moment for yourself then someone screams at you for not moving fast enough. 




how does that relate to meditation and a quiet mind (not to be
confused with a quiet moment) ? according to Vipassena one
would be able to function much better in the ordinary world
with a quiet mind, since "struggle" ends... that's their claim...

Quote:

eve69 said:
It's hard enough to take breaks from the world to get a chance to meditate.




I've been fortunate/unfortunate enuff to meditate daily for
extended periods of time for many years...
I speak from my personal experience, anything else would be
conjecture...

 


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Offlineeve69
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: lucid]
    #2145420 - 11/29/03 08:34 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

lucid said:
Quote:

eve69 said:
Buddha didn't say to not think.



Quote:


actually he did. According to the Buddha awareness is very
different from thinking. Note, he said to be "aware" of
arising thoughts (as an impartial observer),
he did NOT say to think over things (i.e. contemplate).
Big difference between the two.




This is an ongoing debate between many seasoned Buddhists so I don't claim to have the answer. However, they maynot be any thought in parinirvana :wink:

Quote:

eve69 said:
Finally, meditation really is not for everybody. Not every person can stand the full confrontation of their own psyche.



Quote:


um, according to buddhists the True Nature is blissful, if
that's true why would one NOT want to "confront" it ?




The bliss is my experience. This isn't the confrontation that I'm really talking about.

I'm not even talking here about Buddhists per se, but about meditation, as such.  Whether one considers themself a Buddhist or not doesn't change what one has to face exactly when meditating. 

Quote:

eve69 said:
It takes a real intense ability to not flinch in the face of hell. Hell is our mind in this modern world whee one false move and you smash up against a huge framework of artifice.



Quote:


"frameworkd of aritifice" ? :confused:




People have constructed frameworks of self perception based upon what they own, their successes and failures, who they know, what they do, etc... people identify usually not with awareness or mind as such but instead with their face. They have a hard time finding themselves as a silent place of greatest abstraction. 

Quote:

eve69 said:
I mean, if you work at McDonalds and you take a quiet moment for yourself then someone screams at you for not moving fast enough. 



Quote:


how does that relate to meditation and a quiet mind (not to be
confused with a quiet moment) ? according to Vipassena one
would be able to function much better in the ordinary world
with a quiet mind, since "struggle" ends... that's their claim...




Well, you actually may have pegged it when you said somewhere that when the mind gets more silent then thoughts take on more intensity. However, in receptivity one can also see more detail and be more effective as well.  It's a fact that a loudmouth cannot hear while talking. Silence makes for better clearer perception. This can't be bad, and yet, it doesn't always work easily in today's world. The West is alot different from the East.

Quote:

eve69 said:
It's hard enough to take breaks from the world to get a chance to meditate.




I've been fortunate/unfortunate enuff to meditate daily for
extended periods of time for many years...
I speak from my personal experience, anything else would be
conjecture...

 


 


--------------------
...or something






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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 2,261
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: lucid]
    #2145509 - 11/29/03 09:47 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

In my personal experience I've discovered that Meditation and having a quiet mind can be quite
dangerous.


This is not the fault of meditation though, is it? In order to think about the contrast between the peace experienced when meditating properly and when not, you are by definition, not meditating!

Btw, life itself is dangerous.
As a matter of fact it's downright deadly. :wink:

I was going to quote more of your post, but it won't let me because of the way you post. We have wordwrap ya know!  :wink:







--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.

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OfflineMisnomer
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: lucid]
    #2145815 - 11/30/03 02:38 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Realizing the world is a miserable place is a limited thought, which goes against the perceiving/awareness of meditation. The world is. Not The world is this or that. If you find yourself encountering thoughts like this and they seem to affect you harshly then you probably should either meditate more or find a decent therapist because you are repressing something so important to your psyche that it is causing you to think in self destructive thought patterns. Re-emphasizing my previous point, if you "realize" that the world sucks while meditating you aren't meditating. Meditation is. A sunset can be beautiful or fearful but when meditating it is both and neither. It simply/complexly is.

You just aren't getting it. Your mind is a dangerous place, but it's all you've got. If you want to find some understanding in this world, you're going to have to face down what lurks behind your eyes. Not every session of meditation is going to be blissful, that's the point to a degree. Meditation is an experience, and experiences vary, no matter what. If every session were the exact same...stagnation.

P.S. Edit. Oddly enough, years ago, when I first tripped (on blotter) I ended my trip repeating the very comforting thought, "...a trip is a trip is a trip is a trip is a trip..." I had never meditated before but I understood something vital at that moment. The world is. It's not a bad trip, or a good trip, it's a trip which I think is awesome and frightening but altogether more interesting than happy or miserable.

Edited by Misnomer (11/30/03 02:43 AM)

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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: Misnomer]
    #2145847 - 11/30/03 02:52 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Misnomer said:
P.S. Edit. Oddly enough, years ago, when I first tripped (on blotter) I ended my trip repeating the very comforting thought, "...a trip is a trip is a trip is a trip is a trip..." I had never meditated before but I understood something vital at that moment. The world is. It's not a bad trip, or a good trip, it's a trip which I think is awesome and frightening but altogether more interesting than happy or miserable.




Amen brother. One of my favorite things to say is that life is a trip. And it is.


--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all

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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2146173 - 11/30/03 07:50 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

I call life our "planetside trip".  :smile: :mushroom2:


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: lucid]
    #2146755 - 11/30/03 01:21 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

There were actually studies which linked meditation and the like to schizophrenia and other disorders, much in the same way LSD use can be a trigger.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Offlinelucid
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: Phluck]
    #2146767 - 11/30/03 01:27 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
There were actually studies which linked meditation and the like to schizophrenia and other disorders, much in the same way LSD use can be a trigger.




Hmmm... so it seems that there is actual scientific evidence
to suggest that meditation can be quite dangerous ?
links would be much appreciated...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: lucid]
    #2146785 - 11/30/03 01:34 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Friend, focusing on the negative?
It exists for a reason, learn from it.
I suggest you read the Tibetan Book of The Dead. It goes into great detail about encountering these "terrifying, monstrous" entities, and how to react to them.
The only harm comes when you let it envelop you, instead of passing harmlessly as a passing thought. You are too involved. Yes, life may be a miserable affair, but is that all you got from it? Surely there is more to it than that. WHY IS IT A MISERABLE AFFAIR?

Stop dwelling on your insecurities and stresses which you place upon yourself, and start focusing on transcending them. It's all within your power.

If you live in fear, so shall fear take control of you. You give fear it's power. Meditate in fear is no exception. It is not meditation that is at fault, it is your own non-neutrality. If I can encounter the most horrible thing in existance meditating, and come out of it the same person, so can you. I think you need to learn a lesson in balance, and taking responsibility for your thoughts.


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: Shroomism]
    #2146792 - 11/30/03 01:40 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
WHY IS IT A MISERABLE AFFAIR?





Actually, I expressed myself terribly there, sorry
for the confusion.
What I really meant to say was that while meditating
my mind quiets down and I feel absolutely miserable
and awful (not that life is a miserable affair)...
I don't know why I feel this but I do...
there are no thoughts attached to it - i.e. no thoughts
that induce this feeling...rather it seems to permeate
through awareness.
And what I meant was that since I don't judge or challenge
the feeling cognitively (i.e. by trying to challenge the
thought) and simply "observe" it, it just stays...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: lucid]
    #2146844 - 11/30/03 02:14 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

I think there is a difference, in just 'observing it' and letting it stay.
The way I was taught, is to observe, and let it pass by. Like a floating cloud.
But then, you can always challenge the thought in retrospect.


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: Shroomism]
    #2147462 - 11/30/03 05:28 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Shroomism is right. Many thoughts pass through ones minds while meditating. Instead of pulling one down from the sky, just let it pass by. Anything else is attachment which leads to suffering.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: Jellric]
    #2148620 - 12/01/03 05:16 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

For some reason last night, when I went to bed, I felt this sort of depression wash over me, one that I haven't felt for quite some time. I don't even know what caused it, but I ended up having to take some time to not let it take over my mind... Just thoughts about how pointless it all is and that it just keeps going on and on, there is no end....

I acknowledged it and didn't let it take over me, and tried to get some sleep... I didn't have a very pleasant sleep last night, but I feel better now. :grin:

All things pass if you desire to let them...
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2149162 - 12/01/03 10:58 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah, I've had that also. Not so often these days, but it does happen. I find, for me, that it's usually the result of pent-up energy needing to be released. All living creatures build up and release energy. Animals in the wild when they feel that energy build up, run around, play with other animals, or go hunting- they do it automatically. Us human critters, on the other hand, can consciously choose how to release or( and here's the key) forget to! If you don't release it by channeling it positively though a creative endeavor, exercise, whatever..it backs up on you and is experienced negatively.

:smile: Cheers!  :smile:


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.

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OfflinePed
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: Jellric]
    #2149610 - 12/01/03 02:10 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

>> Meditation is an altered state of conciousness
where control is relenquished, much like with drugs


The objective of meditation is to first observe the mind's mechanics, understand it's nature and the nature of our thoughts and their effects, and then skillfully acquire control. Not relinquish it.


>> It's easy in such a state to experience extreeme
terror and despair and then experience a Post Traumatic
Stress Disorder afterwards with the memory strongly
impinted in your mind.


This is what happens when we enter deep and profound practice without correct preparation, and have no suitable container for the experience. In Buddhism, we practice sutra to construct such a container. We then fill it with our experience of the tantras.


>> Also, even with a relatively
quiet mind, thoughts will inevitably arise (they
need to for us to function in this world), but
since the mind is quiet most of the time those thoughts
will have a pronounced affect.


A mind is quiet because it has come to understand it's own experience. Before we can quiet our minds, we must first train ourselves not to be preturbed appearances to mind, understanding that they are the result of our past misguided thoughts and actions.


>> So one may suddenly
"realize" that life is a miserable affair and be
profoundly affected by it.


With a correct view, this is a desirable effect.


>>meditation
involves observing thought, and not counteracting
or reacting in any way


Meditation invovles observing a thought correctly, and answering it or reacting to it in a way that guides us toward happiness.



>> Contemporary New-Ageism advocates Meditation as a panacea,
but I think it has great potential for harm...


Meditation can bring harmful results without proper instruction. If the criteria described here constitutes Contemporary New-Age meditation, then this statement is absolutely correct.




--------------------


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: Ped]
    #2149695 - 12/01/03 02:39 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Just to clarify, the post Ped is quoting is not mine. Lucid was the originator of this thread, of course.

I agree overall with Ped, with the exception of the word "acquire control" below. But that's probably just the limitation of words more than anything.

The objective of meditation is to first observe the mind's mechanics, understand it's nature and the nature of our thoughts and their effects, and then skillfully acquire control.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Offlinelucid
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: Ped]
    #2149711 - 12/01/03 02:45 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Much thanks for all the thoughtful replies :sun:

Ped, u said:
"Meditation invovles observing a thought correctly, and answering it or reacting to it in a way that guides us toward happiness"

In all the meditation books I've read (and I've read a few),
they always advocate simply observing the hought and not
"answering it or reacting to it" in any way...
please elucidate :smile:


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Offlinelucid
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: Jellric]
    #2149717 - 12/01/03 02:49 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Jellric said:
Just to clarify, the post Ped is quoting is not mine. Lucid was the originator of this thread, of course.

I agree overall with Ped, with the exception of the word "acquire control" below. But that's probably just the limitation of words more than anything.

The objective of meditation is to first observe the mind's mechanics, understand it's nature and the nature of our thoughts and their effects, and then skillfully acquire control.




yup, I was wondering about that phrase too...
my understanding is that control must be relenquished...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: Jellric]
    #2149722 - 12/01/03 02:51 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

The meditation/psychosis thing got some media exposure about a year ago. I couldn't find many links, but I came up with a few:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...p;dopt=Abstract

That's just the PubMed listing for a paper on the topic... you'd have to pay for the service or find a scientist with a subscription for the whole thing...

And a news article...
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing23.html

There are, as well, many anecdotes of people who suffered from schizophrenia using meditation sucessful in coping with their illness. LSD therapy has also been sucessful in treating schizophrenia. I think there's a transcribed book on lycaeum.org that has some cases in it, it's a good read if you can find it.

I found one site that warned strongly against doing any meditation at all if one is schizophrenic. It didn't seem like the guy knew what he was talking about though, check it out:

http://users.pandora.be/dhammakaya/repository/faq006.html


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Offlinelucid
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: Phluck]
    #2149727 - 12/01/03 02:54 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
The meditation/psychosis thing got some media exposure about a year ago. I couldn't find many links, but I came up with a few:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...p;dopt=Abstract

That's just the PubMed listing for a paper on the topic... you'd have to pay for the service or find a scientist with a subscription for the whole thing...

And a news article...
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing23.html

There are, as well, many anecdotes of people who suffered from schizophrenia using meditation sucessful in coping with their illness. LSD therapy has also been sucessful in treating schizophrenia. I think there's a transcribed book on lycaeum.org that has some cases in it, it's a good read if you can find it.

I found one site that warned strongly against doing any meditation at all if one is schizophrenic. It didn't seem like the guy knew what he was talking about though, check it out:

http://users.pandora.be/dhammakaya/repository/faq006.html 




Dang, those are quite convincing :frown: 


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Offlinelucid
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: Phluck]
    #2149736 - 12/01/03 02:58 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...p;dopt=Abstract

That's just the PubMed listing for a paper on the topic... you'd have to pay for the service or find a scientist with a subscription for the whole thing...





If anyone has a subscription to PubMed and would be willing
to PM me the article (or post it here) please do...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: Phluck]
    #2149745 - 12/01/03 03:02 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

If you are are feeling unhappy in meditation, then your mind is not free from thoughts or the dichotomy of happy/unhappy. Your emotional state is just as mental as more conscious thoughts and you must learn to transcend it and be free of it as well.

In total Samsara there can be no comfort or discomfort. I think your realization is to show you that you are not there yet.
As goes the old proverb, "If you see the Buddha, kill him." It doesn't matter if the Buddha you see is pleasant or unpleasant, it is a thought like any other and it is holding you back. I find the more I meditate life seems like one of those dreams in which you keep waking up again and again. With each new awereness the last will fall away as an illusion.

And as others have said, in meditation the goal is to be free from the mind, but not to absolve it. We have thoughts for a reason, but we are to master them, and not they us.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: lucid]
    #2149746 - 12/01/03 03:02 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)









If anyone has a subscription to PubMed and would be willing
to PM me the article (or post it here) please do... 





Are you sure you aren't thinking of Club Med? :grin: 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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Offlinelucid
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #2149757 - 12/01/03 03:08 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

FreakQlibrium said:








If anyone has a subscription to PubMed and would be willing
to PM me the article (or post it here) please do... 





Are you sure you aren't thinking of Club Med? :grin: 




a "prescription" for Club Med is probably what I need :grin: 


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Offlinelucid
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #2149758 - 12/01/03 03:08 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

FreakQlibrium said:








If anyone has a subscription to PubMed and would be willing
to PM me the article (or post it here) please do... 





Are you sure you aren't thinking of Club Med? :grin: 




a "prescription" for Club Med is probably what I need :grin: 


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Offlinelucid
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: lucid]
    #2149761 - 12/01/03 03:09 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

What do u folks think about the article Phluck posted ?
They seem to have significant statistical data to back
up their claim...


--------------------
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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: lucid]
    #2149768 - 12/01/03 03:12 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

lucid said:
Quote:

FreakQlibrium said:








If anyone has a subscription to PubMed and would be willing
to PM me the article (or post it here) please do... 





Are you sure you aren't thinking of Club Med? :grin: 




a "prescription" for Club Med is probably what I need :grin: 





From my understanding i just assumed you already had one :grin: 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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OfflinePed
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: lucid]
    #2149803 - 12/01/03 03:29 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Sorry Jellric -- I usually use the QuickReply block at the bottom of the screen, which just associates the post with the most recent reply.


>> In all the meditation books I've read (and I've read a few),
they always advocate simply observing the hought and not
"answering it or reacting to it" in any way...


Becoming detached from thought and deliberately avoiding engagement with the tempting paths of contemplation our mind constantly offers us is an excellent means of acquiring the focus necessary to begin placement or visualization meditations as outlined in the sutras and tantras. If we cannot remain steady on our object of meditation, if we are continuously engaging useless thoughts about our experience of the weather, or memories of an entertaining movie -- we cannot progress with applied practice. Not answering and not reacting to our thoughts in meditation serves as an excellent preamble to focused practice.


>> If you are are feeling unhappy in meditation, then your mind is not free from thoughts or the dichotomy of happy/unhappy. Your emotional state is just as mental as more conscious thoughts and you must learn to transcend it and be free of it as well.

We accomplish this with meditation. Unhappy thoughts and feelings in meditation will act as an obstacle to the attainment you've described. Since a profound break from the incorret view of happiness and unhappiness requires a great degree of study and placement, we must first cultivate a sense of acceptance. We learn to regard ourselves as an imperfect being with various sufferings and afflictions that we are not content with. We accept that the wish to be free from these afflictions stems from a more desirable nature, and abide here through all our practice. This is called refuge.



>> In total Samsara there can be no comfort or discomfort.

What do you mean by this? My notion of Samsara has been that there can only be fleeting and temporary comfort, and ongoing discomfort -- the desire for happiness and contentment forever unsatiated.


>> As goes the old proverb, "If you see the Buddha, kill him." It doesn't matter if the Buddha you see is pleasant or unpleasant, it is a thought like any other and it is holding you back.

This is a delightful point. My teacher has said to his disciples many times: "Even if a thousand dancing Buddha's should appear before you, focus only on your object of meditation."


>> I find the more I meditate life seems like one of those dreams in which you keep waking up again and again. With each new awereness the last will fall away as an illusion.

I am happy for you. Good luck!


--------------------


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: lucid]
    #2149876 - 12/01/03 04:06 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Don't get too carried away, it doesn't mean that there's significant danger in meditating, it just means that it's a real risk. If you're not afraid of psychedelic drugs, there's no need to be afraid of meditation.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: Phluck]
    #2149888 - 12/01/03 04:09 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

I woudn't blame meditation for you own insecurity's.. It sounds like it showed you an aspect of your self you didn't want to see.. You can either run away from your problems or confront them.. Is not meditating actualy going to make your problems go away or are you just going to be less aware of them..

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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: Phluck]
    #2149891 - 12/01/03 04:10 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
If you're not afraid of psychedelic drugs, there's no need to be afraid of meditation. 



I'm kinda terrified of psychedelics, I had a really
awful shroom-trip about 9 months ago which is why
I'm here...
(9 months, damn ! it's time for rebirth  :frown:


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: Bhairabas]
    #2149898 - 12/01/03 04:12 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Me?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Offlinelucid
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: Phluck]
    #2149900 - 12/01/03 04:13 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
Me?




I think he meant me...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: Ped]
    #2149903 - 12/01/03 04:16 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

>> In total Samsara there can be no comfort or discomfort.

//What do you mean by this? My notion of Samsara has been that there can only be fleeting and temporary comfort, and ongoing discomfort -- the desire for happiness and contentment forever unsatiated.//


Oops. I meant Samadhi, not Samsara. Big mistake.



--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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Offlinelucid
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: lucid]
    #2149907 - 12/01/03 04:17 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

BTW, I was quite stable n happy pre-shroom (also
quite comfortable with psychedellics - but not really
interested in em).
I started meditating when I was 14...but "concentration"
meditation with mantras...
I started Vipassena/Mindfulness/Awareness meditation
about a year ago (shortly before my shroom trip) - and I
consider this to be "true" meditation, since it's not
a form of self-hypnosis like reciting mantra's is...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: lucid]
    #2150034 - 12/01/03 05:03 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

lucid said:
BTW, I was quite stable n happy pre-shroom






I have had a few terrifying trips on mushrooms, but I have always been able to make some sense out of them.

What was your "bad trip" like?

I am really interested!


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

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Offlinelucid
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: sirreal]
    #2150068 - 12/01/03 05:13 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sirreal said:
Quote:

lucid said:
BTW, I was quite stable n happy pre-shroom






I have had a few terrifying trips on mushrooms, but I have always been able to make some sense out of them.

What was your "bad trip" like?

I am really interested!
 




here's a link to my first and original post (can't believe
I have over 3500 posts here since then :crazy:) ...

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...rt=all&vc=1

I can't even bring myself to read it again :frown: 


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: lucid]
    #2150279 - 12/01/03 06:15 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks for the link.


I think I understand more about some of the posts that you have made.

I have "freaked out" after shrooming , so I can relate. It can be quite oppressive.

It's kind of funny though. The very thoughts that make me anxious while shrooming, are the same thoughts that bring me peace.

The utter meaninglessness is kind of cozy. It helps me understand that it is not that serious.


BTW, are you feeling any better?


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

Edited by sirreal (12/01/03 06:17 PM)

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Offlinelucid
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: sirreal]
    #2150290 - 12/01/03 06:18 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sirreal said:
Thanks for the link.


I think I understand more about some of the posts that you have made.

I have "freaked out" after shrooming , so I can relate. It can be quite oppressive.

It's kind of funny though. The very thoughts that make me anxious while shrooming, are the same thoughts that bring me peace.

The utter meaninglessness is kind of cozy. It helps me understand that it is not that serious.




"The very thoughts that make me anxious while shrooming, are the same thoughts that bring me peace. "

Interesting...when I was really panicking during the trip I put
on some of my favorite (traditional Sufi) music that I
sometimes used to listen to while meditating and it seemed
terrifying...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Dangers of Meditation and a Quiet Mind... [Re: lucid]
    #2150321 - 12/01/03 06:31 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

lucid said:
Interesting...when I was really panicking during the trip I put
on some of my favorite (traditional Sufi) music that I
sometimes used to listen to while meditating and it seemed
terrifying... 





When I am having a trip that turns bad, I shut out the outside as much as possible. I curl up under a blanket and get lost in the nonsense, so to speak.

It is always thoughts of meaninglessness that drive me crazy on shrooms. The nonsense of my own awareness. My own lack of understanding of my existence. This shit scares the hell out of me.

But at the same time, it comforts me. It takes the pressure off, so to speak. And upon feflection, it gives me great comfort to know that I have no responsibility for any of this. I am only responsible for what I create. And even that does not bring pressure.

There is nothing to be anxious about, because it does not matter.


I hope that made sense. :tongue: 


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

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