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InvisibleXlea321
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Scott Ritter predicts the future
    #2143725 - 11/29/03 04:01 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Scott Ritter said this on March 7 2000. Wonder how he could be so right and the "intelligence" services so wrong?

Think we're being lied to maybe?

What was Iraq hiding? Documentation primarily - documents that would enable them to reconstitute - at a future date - weapons of mass destruction capability....But all of this is useless...unless Iraq has access to the tens, if not hundreds, of millions of dollars required to rebuild the industrial infrastructure (necessary) to build these weapons. They didn't have it in 1998. They don't have it today. This paranoia about what Iraq is doing now that there aren't weapons inspectors reflects a lack of understanding of the reality in Iraq.

"Now after seven years of work by UNSCOM inspectors, there was no more (mass destruction) weapons program. It had been eliminated....When I say eliminated I'm talking about facilities destroyed....

"The weapons stock had been, by and large, accounted for - removed, destroyed or rendered harmless. Means of production had been eliminated, in terms of the factories that can produce this...."There were some areas that we didn't have full accounting for. And this is what plagued UNSCOM.

Security Council 687 is an absolute resolution. It requires that Iraq be disarmed 100 percent. It's what they call 'quantitative disarmament.' Iraq will not be found in compliance until it has been disarmed to a 100 percent level. That's the standard set forth by the Security Council and as implementors of the Security Council resolution, the weapons inspectors had no latitude to seek to do anything less than that - 80 percent was not acceptable; 90 percent was not acceptable; only 100 percent was acceptable.

"And this was the Achilles tendon, so to speak, of UNSCOM. Because by the time 1997 came around, Iraq had been qualitatively disarmed. On any meaningful benchmark - in terms of defining Iraq's weapons of mass destruction on capability; in terms of assessing whether or not Iraq posed a threat, not only to its immediate neighbors, but the region and the world as a whole - Iraq had been eliminated as such a threat....



http://www.converge.org.nz/pma/irscott.htm



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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: Xlea321]
    #2143831 - 11/29/03 07:28 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I know this is slightly off on a tangent, but I had some friends over last week and we were watching an old Bill Hicks video from about 10 years ago. He got to his bit on the first gulf war and one of my friends said "Jesus, it's like nothing fucking changed in 10 years. He might as well be talking about this war." His comments on Bush, and the 'elite' Republican Guard etc... they were so spot-on it was just uncanny.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Offlineenimatpyrt
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Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: Edame]
    #2143982 - 11/29/03 11:09 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Tens of millions of dollars to produce WMD's? Hardly. A bioreactor can be purchased for less than 20,000$ today, and that can be used to spawn tons of virulent weapons. Fermentation tanks are used to produce bacteria. I'd say that members of the shroomery, via agar work, would have enough intelligence to produce "WMD's", given a small amount of equipment and a bit of time. I wonder where that link came from, hatebush.com?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2144546 - 11/29/03 03:58 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Tens of millions of dollars to produce WMD's?

Minimum.

I'd say that members of the shroomery, via agar work, would have enough intelligence to produce "WMD's",

And as usual you'd be talking out of your fanny. An agar dish is not going to cause mass destruction.


--------------------
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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: Xlea321]
    #2144597 - 11/29/03 04:21 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


Tens of millions of dollars to produce WMD's?

Minimum.




Bullshit.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2144804 - 11/29/03 06:04 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I'll bet most members of The Shroomery have more chemicals in their backyard sheds than what we found in Iraq.




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--------------------------------


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: Learyfan]
    #2144888 - 11/29/03 06:39 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Since we may never know how much, if any chemicals are in Iraq, that's just a guess.

And a weak one at that.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2145725 - 11/30/03 03:42 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

You seem too dense to grasp this but it really does bear repeating. A chemical is not a WMD by itself. Running at New York with a beakerful of a chemical is not going to cause mass destruction. You need enormous heavy industry to build long range ballistic missiles.

Incidentally, as the american expert on chemical and biological weapons said in the article I posted several times - the only real WMD are nuclear weapons.


--------------------
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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: Xlea321]
    #2146034 - 11/30/03 07:17 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I grasp it quite well. Far better than you it seems. Weapons can be delivered in other manners and you know it.


Quote:

Incidentally, as the american expert on chemical and biological weapons said in the article I posted several times - the only real WMD are nuclear weapons.



Well as the links I've posted from your much ballyhooed U.N. have shown, they disagree. Tell then they're wrong and they'll be laughing at you just as hard as many here do.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2146101 - 11/30/03 08:12 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Weapons can be delivered in other manners and you know it.

Of course they can. You could run at me with a beakerful of anthrax if you like. That would still not qualify as a WMD.

Well as the links I've posted from your much ballyhooed U.N. have shown, they disagree

As a recent poster pointed out, it really is time you changed your name to luvdemlies.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: Xlea321]
    #2146128 - 11/30/03 08:30 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

There's only one of us that lies Alpo. We both know it's you.

Here's a cut and paste for you from an earlier thread on this very subject.....




Treaties banning the production and stockpiling of other weapons of mass destruction will also be highlighted. Those include the Convention on the Prohibition of the Development, Production and Stockpiling of Bacteriological (Biological) and Toxin Weapons and on Their Destruction (Biological Weapons Convention); and the Convention on the Prohibition of the Development, Production, Stockpiling and Use of Chemical Weapons and on Their Destruction (Chemical Weapons Convention).



From the section titled "Committee Work Programme"





So not only are you a liar, but you're lame enough to try and call others liars who, sadly for you, have the ability to back up what they say.

Truly pathetic.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: Xlea321]
    #2146154 - 11/30/03 09:21 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

And in the words of your idol, the alleged pedophile Scott Ritter....

"Let's talk about the weapons. In 1991, did Iraq have a viable weapons of mass destruction capability? You're darn right they did. They had a massive chemical weapons program. They had a giant biological weapons program. They had long-range ballistic missiles and they had a nuclear weapons program that was about six months away from having a viable weapon. "

From your link in this thread Alpo. Funny you didn't think to paste that here as well.

I wonder why?

:smirk:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2146215 - 11/30/03 10:41 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

sadly for you, have the ability to back up what they say

Could you point out where that defines a weapon of mass destruction as nothing but a chemical luvdemlies? Are you so dense as to believe a chemical in a test-tube with no means of delivering it constitutes a WMD?

And in the words of your idol, the alleged pedophile Scott Ritter....

No idol of mine. I merely state the fact that he was right and your idol Bush was wrong.

Obviously you are unable to address this fact and have to fall back on personal attacks about Ritter. Nothing ever changes does it luv?  :smile2:

I wonder why?

Because it is now 2003 not 1991. We all know he had chemical weapons in the 80's - he was using them with the full support of Washington remember. 


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: Xlea321]
    #2146227 - 11/30/03 10:58 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Sure Alpo, I wouldn't have thought in to be necessary but I guess your even dumber than I thought.





Treaties banning the production and stockpiling of other weapons of mass destruction will also be highlighted. Those include the Convention on the Prohibition of the Development, Production and Stockpiling of Bacteriological ( Biological ) and Toxin Weapons and on Their Destruction ( Biological Weapons Convention ); and the Convention on the Prohibition of the Development, Production, Stockpiling and Use of Chemical Weapons and on Their Destruction ( Chemical Weapons Convention ).





It can't be any plainer numbnuts, the UN, the group you value so highly, calls weapons besides nukes Weapons Of Mass Destruction.

Even your buddy Ritter calls them that.





"Let's talk about the weapons. In 1991, did Iraq have a viable weapons of mass destruction capability? You're darn right they did. They had a massive chemical weapons program. They had a giant biological weapons program. They had long-range ballistic missiles and they had a nuclear weapons program that was about six months away from having a viable weapon. "





So Alpo, for once be a man and admit you were wrong. It doesn't hurt.


Quote:

Are you denying Ritter was wrong in stating Iraqs WMD capabilities were no longer a threat? Your dishonesty is breathtaking.



I've never said they were Alpo. What I have said is the inability to find something is not proof it doesn't exist.

So before accusing someone of being dishonest, try being honest yourself. Sad that it's so difficult for you to do. I'd have nothing to say if you were merely wrong, everyone is occasionally.I can even forget stupidity from you, it's the lies that stand out. And as long as you keep lying, I'll keep pointing out what a worthless ass you are.

A person is only as good as he is truthful. Sadly, that leaves you in the shitter.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: Xlea321]
    #2146231 - 11/30/03 11:00 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Nothing ever changes does it luv?



Sure it does Alpo, after all your post changed without it being marked as edited.

And I made no attacks, hence the word "alleged".


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2146234 - 11/30/03 11:04 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Don't cave in that quick luv, I was just getting interested  :lol:

It can't be any plainer numbnuts

Lets hope a mod calls you on this blatant flaming.

It can't be any plainer numbnuts, the UN, the group you value so highly, calls weapons besides nukes Weapons Of Mass Destruction.

Nope, it refers to "weapons" not "a chemical in a test tube with no means of delivery". Are you really too dense to understand the difference?

I repeat, please point out where that paragraph you posted states a WMD consists of nothing but a chemical in a test-tube.

Even your buddy Ritter calls them that

Nope, learn to read. He refers to "WEAPONS" not "a chemical in a test tube with no means of delivery".

Odd you missed this on your trawl through the archives too...

Brian Jones, the MoD's former assistant director, intelligence, with responsibility for nuclear, chemical and biological weapons, gave possibly the most significant evidence to date on the dossier.

The very title of it, Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction, was for the first time called into question. Dr Jones said although the phrase applied to nuclear bombs, many biological and chemical weapons would "struggle to fit in that category". He said many biological weapons were designed to incapacitate rather than kill; they were lethal mainly in enclosed spaces, such as in the nerve gas attack on the Tokyo underground in 1995. Chemical weapons were even more difficult because they would need to be produced in large quantities to have any effect in battle, Dr Jones said.

Given that the phrase "weapons of mass destruction" came fully into the public consciousness last autumn as a result of the dossier, his evidence was startling. Mr Blair, Alastair Campbell and most ministers, frequently used the term, and its WMD initials, as a shorthand for what they saw as an unwieldy "nuclear, chemical and biological weapons". It also conjured up the spectre of horrifying attacks launched by Saddam Hussein. Yet here was the Government's most senior official dealing with such issues saying the term was inaccurate. Asked whether he felt there was a difference between missiles and artillery shells with chemical warheads, Dr Jones replied: "I think I would struggle to describe either as a true weapon of mass destruction." 

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...rue#Post1879809


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: Xlea321]
    #2146243 - 11/30/03 11:13 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I saw it oh dishonest one, it doesn't change the fact that all are considered WMD's by the many. It doesn't change the fact that most definitions I have seen decribe them like this.....

weapon of mass destruction
Noun 1. weapon of mass destruction - a weapon that kills or injures civilian as well as military personnel (nuclear and chemical and biological weapons)
W.M.D., WMD
bioarm, biological weapon, bioweapon - any weapon usable in biological warfare; "they feared use of the smallpox virus as a bioweapon"
chemical weapon - chemical substances that can be delivered using munitions and dispersal devices to cause death or severe harm to people and animals and plants
nuclear weapon - a weapon of mass destruction whose explosive power derives from a nuclear reaction
weapon, weapon system, arm - any instrument or instrumentality used in fighting or hunting; "he was licensed to carry a weapon"
armed forces, armed services, military, military machine, war machine - the military forces of a nation; "their military is the largest in the region"; "the military machine is the same one we faced in 1991 but now it is weaker"
high explosive - a powerful chemical explosive that produces gas at a very high rate

Link


Or the dozens on this page...
Definitions of WMD



--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2146249 - 11/30/03 11:17 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

But as I keep pointing out, those all refer to WEAPONS.

A chemical warhead in a long range ballistic missile (although most experts would disagree with this) could at a stretch be considered a WMD. There is however no way a chemical in a test tube with no means of delivery can be considered a WMD.

Do you understand the difference or will I need to repeat this again?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: Xlea321]
    #2146255 - 11/30/03 11:21 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

There is however no way a chemical in a test tube with no means of delivery can be considered a WMD.



Point out where I said a test tube of chemicals is one.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2146360 - 11/30/03 12:39 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

So what exactly are you arguing about?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: Xlea321]
    #2146377 - 11/30/03 12:44 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
So what exactly are you arguing about?



Your dishonesty and this.....

Incidentally, as the american expert on chemical and biological weapons said in the article I posted several times - the only real WMD are nuclear weapons.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: Xlea321]
    #2146388 - 11/30/03 12:48 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


Alex123:
Nope, it refers to "weapons" not "a chemical in a test tube with no means of delivery". Are you really too dense to understand the difference?




Quote:


Alex123:
I repeat, please point out where that paragraph you posted states a WMD consists of nothing but a chemical in a test-tube.




Quote:


Alex123:
Could you point out where that defines a weapon of mass destruction as nothing but a chemical luvdemlies? Are you so dense as to believe a chemical in a test-tube with no means of delivering it constitutes a WMD?




Quote:


Alex123:
A chemical is not a WMD by itself. Running at New York with a beakerful of a chemical is not going to cause mass destruction.




Plus the emboldened text could be considered a flame....


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The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2146399 - 11/30/03 12:54 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Your dishonesty and this.....

Could you be more specific? What exactly are you arguing?


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Offlineenimatpyrt
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Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: Xlea321]
    #2146563 - 11/30/03 02:16 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

"A study of the vulnerability of subway passengers in NYC to covert action with biological agents" USAMRIID Ft Detrick, MD 1968

The study describes how Army researchers had filled glass lightbulbs with a dry, powdered bacterial-spore preparation, finer than confectionars suger (mill-ground, just like the b. anthracis was a few years ago). The bacterial agent was Bavillus Globigii, an organism that doesn't cause disease in humans, but it is a spore-forming bacterial. The researchers went to 6 locations near Times Square and dropped the lightbulb of spors on the tracks. Ten total ounces of spores were used. Within four days, the spores were found all over NYC. Spores from Times Square were driven into the bronx b the plunger action of the trains whooshing through the tunnels.


Alex123, I have again proved you wrong. Any spore-producing bacteriological agent could be used in this way, and with minor modifications that I am not going to dicuss/disclose, can be done with virii and fungal spores. Numerous other tests, some still not declassified, were attempted, such as one conducted by the CIA and USAMRIID at west point. Syringes were prepared with a common cold bacteria and "agents" went around campus stabbing them into cadets andinjecting the contents. Not one cadet felt it, and within three days, most of the campus had a minor cold. Only fifteen cadets were injected, the rest spread other ways.


How, in your fantasy world of IgnorantLand, are WMD's spread?


--------------------
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.


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Anonymous

Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: enimatpyrt]
    #2146572 - 11/30/03 02:20 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

enimatpyrt said:
Tens of millions of dollars to produce WMD's? Hardly. A bioreactor can be purchased for less than 20,000$ today, and that can be used to spawn tons of virulent weapons. Fermentation tanks are used to produce bacteria. I'd say that members of the shroomery, via agar work, would have enough intelligence to produce "WMD's", given a small amount of equipment and a bit of time. I wonder where that link came from, hatebush.com?




if this were the case, every country on earth would have "WMD".


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: ]
    #2146584 - 11/30/03 02:23 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

immaculate said:
Quote:

if this were the case, every country on earth would have "WMD".



Just about every one can as there is no great cost involved in the development of biological and/or chemical weapons.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2146600 - 11/30/03 02:28 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

then some terrorist organizations can make them on their own.. right?

and the delivering of them is pretty easy, i've been hearing.

between the fact they cost nothing and arent hard to deliver, seems like we'd be seeing some "wmd" attacks or something, you know.

if its that easy, i'm scared as hell.


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Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: ]
    #2146620 - 11/30/03 02:35 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

immaculate said:
then some terrorist organizations can make them on their own.. right?



Sure, some could. We were talking about countries though.


Quote:

and the delivering of them is pretty easy, i've been hearing.



Different methods will have varying rates of success. It does not require missles or millions.


Quote:

between the fact they cost nothing and arent hard to deliver, seems like we'd be seeing some "wmd" attacks or something, you know.



Some think we may already have. As an example... West Nile Fever and SAR's.

Quote:

if its that easy, i'm scared as hell.



I wouldn't be. As I said the methods of delivery would most likely be the key to a successful attack. At least with chemicals. I'd worry more about the biological attacks, should there ever be any.


In the meantime, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: ]
    #2146947 - 11/30/03 04:50 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

then some terrorist organizations can make them on their own.. right?

and the delivering of them is pretty easy, i've been hearing.

between the fact they cost nothing and arent hard to deliver, seems like we'd be seeing some "wmd" attacks or something, you know.

if its that easy, i'm scared as hell.




LOL! Yeah, you'll hear an awful lot of bullshit from luv on this. Here's some reality from someone who has a clue, as opposed to luv's "If I don't know, i'll just make it up" approach.



http://www.conservativetruth.org/attack/therealdeal.shtml

The Real Deal About Nuclear, Chemical, and Biological Warfare
October 9, 2001
by "Red" Thomas

Since the media has decided to scare everyone with predictions of chemical, biological, or nuclear warfare on our turf, I have decided to write a paper to help keep things in their proper perspective. I am a retired military weapons, munitions, and training expert.

Lesson number one: In the mid 1990s there were a series of nerve gas attacks on crowded Japanese subway stations. Given perfect conditions for an attack, less than 10% of the people there were injured (the injured were better in a few hours) and only one percent of the injured died. 60 Minutes once had a fellow telling us that one drop of nerve gas could kill a thousand people. What he didn't tell us is that the thousand dead people per drop was theoretical. Drill Sergeants exaggerate how terrible this stuff is to keep the recruits awake in class (I know this because I was a Drill Sergeant too). Forget everything you've ever seen on TV, in the movies, or read in a novel about this stuff, it was all a lie (read this sentence again out loud!)! These weapons are about terror. If you remain calm, you probably will not die. This is far less scary than the media and their "experts," make it sound.

Chemical weapons are categorized as Nerve, Blood, Blister, and Incapacitating agents. Contrary to the hype of reporters and politicians, they are not weapons of mass destruction. They are "Area Denial Weapons" and terror weapons that don't destroy anything. When you leave the area you almost always leave the risk. That's the difference; you can leave the area and the risk. Soldiers may have to stay put; that's why they need all that spiffy gear.

These are not gases, they are vapors or air borne particles. The agent must be delivered in sufficient quantity to kill or injure, and that defines when and how it's used. Every day we have a morning and evening inversion where "stuff," suspended in the air gets pushed down. This inversion is why allergies (pollen) and air pollution are worst at these times of the day. So a chemical attack will have it's best effect an hour of so either side of sunrise or sunset. Also, being vapors and airborne particles they are heavier than air so they will seek low places like ditches, basements and underground garages. This stuff won't work when it's freezing, it doesn't last when it's hot, and wind spreads it too thin too fast. They've got to get this stuff on you, or get you to inhale it for it to work. They also have to get the concentration of chemicals high enough to kill or wound you. Too little and it's nothing, too much and it's wasted. What I hope you've gathered by this point is that a chemical weapons attack that kills a lot of people is incredibly hard to accomplish with military grade agents and equipment, so you can imagine how hard it will be for terrorists. The more you know about this stuff the more you realize how hard it is to use.

We'll start by talking about nerve agents. You have these in your house. Plain old bug killer (like Raid) is nerve agent. All nerve agents work the same way - they are cholinesterase inhibitors that mess up the signals your nervous system uses to make your body function. It can harm you if you get it on your skin but it works best if they can get you to inhale it. If you don't die in the first minute and you can leave the area, you're probably going to live. The military's antidote for all nerve agents is atropine and pralidoxime chloride. Neither one of these does anything to cure the nerve agent, they send your body into overdrive to keep you alive for five minutes after that the agent is used up. Your best protection is fresh air and staying calm.

Here are the symptoms for nerve agent poisoning: Sudden headache, dimness of vision (if you're looking an affected person, they will have pinpointed pupils), runny nose, excessive saliva or drooling, difficult breathing, tightness in chest, nausea, stomach cramps, or twitching of exposed skin (where the liquid touched you).

If you are in public and you start experiencing these symptoms, first ask yourself, "Did anything out of the ordinary just happen, such as a loud pop. Did someone spray something on the crowd? Are other people getting sick too? Is there an odor of new mown hay, green corn, something fruity, or camphor where it shouldn't be?"

If the answer is yes, then calmly (if you panic, you breathe faster and inhale more poison) leave the area and head upwind or outside. Fresh air is the best "right now antidote". If you have a blob of liquid that looks like molasses or Kayro syrup on you; blot it or scrape it off and away from yourself with anything disposable. This stuff works based on your body weight. What a crop duster uses to kill bugs won't hurt you unless you stand there and breathe it in deeply, then lick the residue off the ground for while. Remember they have to do all the work, they have to get the concentration up and keep it up for several minutes. All you have to do is quit getting it on you or quit breathing it by putting space between you and the attack.

Blood agents are cyanide or arsine which effect your blood's ability to provide oxygen to your tissue. The scenario for attack would be the same as nerve agent. Look for a pop or someone splashing or spraying something, with people in the are getting dizzy or falling down. The telltale smells are bitter almonds or garlic where it shouldn't be. The symptoms are blue lips, blue fingernail beds, and rapid breathing. The military's antidote is amyl nitrite, and just like nerve agent antidote its purpose is to keep your body working for five minutes until the toxins are used up. Fresh air is the >the< best treatment for an individual.

Blister agents (distilled mustard) are so nasty that nobody wants to even handle them, let alone use them. They are almost impossible to handle safely. They may have delayed effects for up to 12 hours. The attack scenario is also limited to the things you'd see with other chemicals. If you get large, painful blisters for no apparent reason, don't pop them. If they do pop, don't let the liquid from the blister get on any other area, as this will spread the effects. It's just as likely to harm the user as the target. Soap, water, sunshine, and fresh air are this stuff's enemy.

The reason terrorists amy use chemical weapons is the same as if they attempt to use industrial chemical spills: They want you to panic, to terrorize you, to herd you like sheep to the wolves. You're more likely to be hurt by a drunk driver on any given day than be hurt by one of these attacks. If there is an attack, leave the area and go upwind, or to the sides of the wind stream. They have to get the stuff to you, and on you. Your odds improve if you leave the area. Soap, water, time, and fresh air really deal this stuff a knock-out punch. Don't let fear of an isolated attack rule your life. The odds are really on your side.

Nuclear bombs. These are the only weapons of mass destruction on earth. The effects of a nuclear bomb are heat, blast, EMP, and radiation. If you see a bright flash of light like the sun, where the sun isn't, fall to the ground! The heat will be over in a second. Then there will be two blast waves, one out going, and one on it's way back. Don't stand up to see what happened after the first wave. Anything that's going to happen will be over within two minutes.

These will be low yield devices and will not level whole cities. If you live through the heat, blast, and initial burst of radiation, you'll probably live for a very long time. (Radiation will not create fifty foot tall women, giant ants or grasshoppers the size of tanks!) These will be at the most 1 kiloton bombs; that's the equivalent of 1,000 tons of TNT. Here's the real deal. Flying debris and radiation will kill a lot of (not all!) exposed people within a half mile of the blast. Under perfect conditions this will create about a half mile circle of death and destruction, but when it's done it's done. EMP stands for Electro Magnetic Pulse. It will fry every electronic device for a good distance. It's impossible to say exactly how far, but probably not over a couple of miles from ground zero. Cars, cell phones, computers, ATMs, you name it, all will be out of order.

There are lots of kinds of radiation, but you only need to worry about three. The others you have lived with for years. You need to worry about "Ionizing radiation;" these are sub atomic particles that go whizzing along at the speed of light. They hit individual cells in your body, kill the nucleus and keep on going. This is how you get radiation poisoning; you have so many dead cells in your body that the decaying cells poison you. It's the same as people getting radiation treatments for cancer, only a bigger area gets radiated. The good news is you don't have to just sit there and take it, and there are lots of things you can do rather than panic. First, understand that your skin will stop alpha particles, and a page of a news paper or your clothing will stop beta particles. You just need to avoid inhaling dust that's contaminated with atoms that are emitting these things and you'll be generally safe from them. Gamma rays are particles that travel like rays (quantum physics makes my brain hurt) and they create the same damage as alpha and beta particles, except that they keep going and kill lots of cells as they go all the way through your body. It takes lots of dense material>
Your defense is as always to not panic. Basic hygiene and normal preparation are your friends. All canned or frozen food is safe to eat. The radiation poisoning will not effect plants so fruits and vegetables are OK if there's no dust on them; rinse them off if there is. If you don't have running water and you need to collect rain or pond water, just let it sit for thirty minutes and skim the water gently from the top. The dust with the bad stuff in it will settle, and the remaining water can be used for the toilet (which will still work if you have a bucket of water to pour in the tank).

Finally there's biological warfare. There's not much to cover here. Basic personal hygiene and sanitation will take you further than a million doctors. Wash your hands often, don't share drinks, food, sloppy kisses, etc. with strangers. Keep a tight lid on your garbage can, don't leave standing water (like old buckets, ditches, or kiddie pools) lying around, which allows mosquitoes a place to breed. This stuff is carried by vectors (such as bugs and rodents) and contaminated material. If biological warfare is as easy as the TV makes it sound, why has Saddam Hussein spent twenty years and millions of dollars trying to get it right? If you're clean of person and home, you eat well and are active you're gonna live.

Overall preparation for any terrorist attack is the same as you'd take for a big storm. If you want a gas mask, fine, go get one. I know this stuff and I'm not getting one. I told my Mom not to bother with one either (how's that for confidence). We have a week's worth of cash, several days worth of canned goods and plenty of soap and water. We don't leave stuff out to attract bugs or rodents so we don't have them.

These people can't conceive a nation this big with this much resources. These weapons are made to cause panic, terror, and to demoralize. If we don't run around like sheep they won't use this stuff after they find out they aren't effective. The government is highly mobilized because they have to protect every inch of America. You only have to protect yourself and your family, and by doing that, you're helping the country.

Finally, there are millions of caveats to everything I wrote here. I'm sure someone can think up specific scenarios where my advice isn't the best. This letter is supposed to help the greatest number of people under the greatest number of situations. If you don't like my work, don't nitpick. Sit down and explain chemical, nuclear, and biological warfare in a document yourself. Knowledge is how we the people of the United States can rob these people of their most desired goal, your terror.

SFC Red Thomas (Ret)
Armor Master Gunner
Mesa, AZ

Reproduction and distribution is free and unlimited. Just give me credit for my work.

Addendum of 16 October, 2001: The talking heads on TV have learned to pronounce the word "anthrax" and now they're addicted to saying it. Let's put this hype to rest. First, ask yourself, "What are the odds that I will be picked out of 270 Million Americans for this attack?" Second, realize that more people have choked to death on food than have gotten anthrax in the last two weeks and only one died. The terrorists are preying on your fear and the media's addiction to lazy reporting of sensational news. Here's another Real Deal from Red: "The fastest way to cut these attacks is to not show them we're scared. The more times they see us shaking in our boots the happier they will be." As FDR said, "The only thing you have to fear, is fear itself."


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: Xlea321]
    #2147048 - 11/30/03 05:16 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Yet more dishonesty Alpo?

You know I've made nothing up.

Try honesty, you may like it.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlineenimatpyrt
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Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2147078 - 11/30/03 05:29 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Hey Alpo, why don't you respond to my post directly? Hrm?


--------------------
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2148297 - 12/01/03 02:09 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

You know I've made nothing up.

So which weapons expert did you get this pearl of wisdom from "It does not require missles or millions"?

And why are you so "worried" about biological attacks? The expert above doesn't seem worried at all.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: Xlea321]
    #2148444 - 12/01/03 03:29 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

(Radiation will not create fifty foot tall women, giant ants or grasshoppers the size of tanks!)




MUST...RESIST...TEMPATION!!!
Fuck it.


Notice how the author almost goes out of his way to point that out? Only at a conservative website...


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: Xlea321]
    #2148565 - 12/01/03 05:56 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
You know I've made nothing up.

So which weapons expert did you get this pearl of wisdom from "It does not require missles or millions"?



enimatpyrt provided an example of a study done. Had it been done with a real virus with more than 10oz there COULD have been real damage done. There are other such studies you can read if you can tear yourself away from ihateamerica.com and scottritterismyidol.com long enough to read them. Of course that would mean you keeping an open mind so we can rest assured that it will never happen.



Quote:

And why are you so "worried" about biological attacks? The expert above doesn't seem worried at all.



Ahhh.... some more of your inability to be honest. Or did you fail to comprehend the highlighted parts that follow.

" I wouldn't be . As I said the methods of delivery would most likely be the key to a successful attack. At least with chemicals. I'd worry more about the biological attacks, should there ever be any."

Let's break this down since apparently the written word overwhelms you.

"I wouldn't be" - This was in direct response to immaculate's post which read.... if its that easy, i'm scared as hell. . My response clearly states that I wouldn't be worried. Since the definition of "wouldn't" seems beyond your grasp, here is the definition.....


Main Entry: wouldn't
Pronunciation: 'wu-d&nt, -d&n, dial also 'wu-t&n(t) or "wunt
Date: 1675
: would not

Get it now? I would not be worried.

Am I going to fast for you? Let's move on shall we?


"I'd worry more" - that breaks down as follows.... I would worry more. Since this follows the words "I wouldn't be", that clearly indicates that IF I was to worry about chem or bio attacks.... the bio attack would worry me more if I thought either was likely.



Really Alpo.... a rudementary grasp of the language would be helpful to you.


You being honest would go a long way as well. Well, we can only dream.




--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2149107 - 12/01/03 12:38 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

ad it been done with a real virus with more than 10oz there COULD have been real damage done.

And IF your aunt had nuts she'd be your uncle. Do you have any real-life examples?

There's a helluva difference between spreading spores and getting someone to stand in one place long enough to get a high enough concentration of virus onto them to kill them.

the bio attack would worry me more if I thought either was likely

But you still havn't explained why it "worries you more".


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Re: Scott Ritter predicts the future [Re: Xlea321]
    #2149778 - 12/01/03 05:15 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

high enough concentration



It only takes one.


Quote:

high enough concentration



Read it again. Neither worries me.


When you learn how to read, and more importantly, learn how to be honest, ask away. Until then don't bother as I have nothing but contempt you and for your level of dishonesty.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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