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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca] * 1
    #21426162 - 03/18/15 10:42 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:

You know, between this, and that list of infrastructure development concerns of yours, you sound like a Bernie Sanders guy, tbh. He has a very nice voting record, you should really look into his politics, if you haven't, I think you'd like him. He is not an insider in congress by any stretch, and he doesn't want to be.




I'm very familiar with Bernie Sanders and he's giving some absolute barn burner speeches on the Senate Floor that were right on the money, but I don't think he'd make a good president and he has zero chance. 








Bernie Sanders is a simpleton.


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21426168 - 03/18/15 10:44 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:

Giant multinational corporations are private businesses just as much as the local mom and pop store.




With all due respect, that is just wrong.  Giant multi nationals are much more like local governments than they are private businesses.  The financial leverage they tap into is well beyond what most Americans can understand.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #21426181 - 03/18/15 10:46 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Do they have armies?  Can they arrest you and throw you in jail?


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #21426184 - 03/18/15 10:47 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:

We've officially taken something that's supposed to symbolically represent value transfer (money), and turned it into a device which we hinge real world problems on, and then treat the symbolic representation as being more valuable than the value it's supposed to represent in the first place.

Man's fate looks a lot like a green, paper rectangle these days.




Best line I've heard in a long time. Well said man. Money isnt even real anymore... I hear about guys on the vine making millions of dollars off literally 5 second videos... its just stupid now. I can bust my ass in a factory actually making shit for 80 hours a week, and they make more than I would make in 10 lifetimes off a series of 5 second video clips, because of advertising. Something is out of whack here.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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InvisibleAlgo
Backstrap Fever


Registered: 12/15/14
Posts: 3,857
Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #21426189 - 03/18/15 10:49 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:

Giant multinational corporations are private businesses just as much as the local mom and pop store.




With all due respect, that is just wrong.  Giant multi nationals are much more like local governments than they are private businesses.  The financial leverage they tap into is well beyond what most Americans can understand.




Thats exactly right because I dont have a lobby to by off politicians for pavement maintenance, or flat out threatened them.


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21426194 - 03/18/15 10:50 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Do they have armies?  Can they arrest you and throw you in jail?




Armies of attorneys?  Yes.  Do some exert tremendous influence on our political system that creates military action?  Yes.  Do corporations pressure government to punish their enemies?  Yes.  Can a multinational absolutely destroy a private citizen with their financial advantages with regards to the legal and political system?  Yes. 

Do corporations employ often large private security forces?  Yes.  Global multinationals operate a lot like government.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21426195 - 03/18/15 10:50 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

It isn't because of advertising.  It is because what you chose to do is of little value to anybody


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21426197 - 03/18/15 10:51 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

When they control the political arena, yes, they do have armies, and police. The military industrial complex and Haliburton are perfect examples of this.

Ad Homonym attacks on Bernie Sanders doesnt make your case at all. Why do you think your even capable of fathoming these things when this kind of nonsense is all you have to contribute?


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21426204 - 03/18/15 10:53 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

There wss a case where a juvinile detentiin center was privatized, and the judge was bought, and sent children away for years for cussing at their teachers, etc. Yes, they can imprison you.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Registered: 12/07/13
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21426217 - 03/18/15 10:56 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

5 second clips are valuable, but the welds on your car's door frame and seatbelt brackets aren't important? Your have a warped set of ideals when you find yourself defending this nonsensical rhetoric.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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InvisibleAlgo
Backstrap Fever


Registered: 12/15/14
Posts: 3,857
Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21426221 - 03/18/15 10:58 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
There wss a case where a juvinile detentiin center was privatized, and the judge was bought, and sent children away for years for cussing at their teachers, etc. Yes, they can imprison you.




Can you link that? I wanna check that out.


--------------------

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 1
    #21426224 - 03/18/15 10:58 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
When they control the political arena, yes, they do have armies, and police. The military industrial complex and Haliburton are perfect examples of this.




This is complete bullshit.  They do not have armies and they do not have police forces.  Only the government does.
Quote:



Ad Homonym attacks on Bernie Sanders doesnt make your case at all. Why do you think your even capable of fathoming these things when this kind of nonsense is all you have to contribute?



"Ad Homonym"  :lolsy:I have thousands and thousands of substantive posts rebutting communist and socialist retards.  Bernie Sanders is history.  Soon he'll be geography.  He has spent decades in Congress and has accomplished exactly zero even though Vermont hippy retards keep electing him.


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21426230 - 03/18/15 11:00 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Do they have armies?  Can they arrest you and throw you in jail?




In case you haven't heard, much of our prison system in America is privatized -- run by privately owned corporations that do dispense justice for a profit.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: Algo]
    #21426301 - 03/18/15 11:21 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Look up 'kids for cash', thats what the media called it. This has actually happened more than once. Its even a problem with adult prisons... these people have no voice, and they are easy to take advantage of.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

Edited by Bigbadwooof (03/18/15 11:22 AM)

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21426342 - 03/18/15 11:30 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

I dont know what you mean by 'soon he'll be geography'. He hasnt accomplished anything because he's not an insider. There are two crowds in congress. The insider crowd (Hillary, Mccaine, Etc) and the outsider crowd (Ron Paul, Elizabeth Warren, Alan Grayson, and Bernie Sanders are all I know of)... actually, fuck it, you dont feel the need to ever make your points, I'm not defending mine to you. You have nothing of substance to offer. You're the equivalent of siskal and ebert on these forums.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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OfflineLoaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/02/15
Posts: 8,011
Loc: Now O'Clock
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21426514 - 03/18/15 12:06 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:

We've officially taken something that's supposed to symbolically represent value transfer (money), and turned it into a device which we hinge real world problems on, and then treat the symbolic representation as being more valuable than the value it's supposed to represent in the first place.

Man's fate looks a lot like a green, paper rectangle these days.




Best line I've heard in a long time. Well said man. Money isnt even real anymore... I hear about guys on the vine making millions of dollars off literally 5 second videos... its just stupid now. I can bust my ass in a factory actually making shit for 80 hours a week, and they make more than I would make in 10 lifetimes off a series of 5 second video clips, because of advertising. Something is out of whack here.




Thanks mate :smile:

Also, I agree to an extent about the issue you brought up. If anything, it just proves a skew in priorities.

The real issue is value.

Even though employees SHOULD be highly-valued, as they perpetuate the systems which bring income in in the first place - advertising is usually perceived as a higher value.

An owner would rather invest 10K in advertising that will make him, say, 100K in sales, instead of pay an employee 30K a year to bring in the same amount. To the employer, advertising is more valuable. The employee just gets shafted, lol. Those are all arbitrary numbers for example; the math is probably way off, so bear with me here.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #21428430 - 03/18/15 07:58 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Marketing is a huge component of the materialistic world we live in. More than half of what you pay for (sometimes significantly more) when you buy shit, is advertising costs. That employer in your example wouldnt make the same money if he spent it on the employee. I'm just really disillusioned with capitalist rhetoric and my experiences within the capitalist society. At a certain point in a capitalist society, you reach a level in which companies have grown to extraordinary sizes, they have been reinvesting in their companies for 100, 50, or even 10 years of reinvesting capital, when they have absorbed all competition (a key component to functional capitalism), and manipulated all major markets to an extreme, they turn their gaze to government control. Business will achieve its goals given a long enough timeline, and when they have incredible market control and equity beyond the scope of what any new business can conjur to compete, the timeline of their existence is indefinite. Once they control the government you have the same outcome as you do under communism. Wages are reduced to levels of subsistence. A two tier class system emerges, where a small group of people run the show. Police are militarized to protect the royal class from all who might oppose them. Its the same god damn thing, and its happening here. The public becomes increasingly dependent on safety net programs. At the rate we're going, we will all be on welfare and a small group of people will be running everything, again, given a long enough timeline.

Just my take.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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Offlinepsyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 6,100
Last seen: 7 years, 6 months
Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21429243 - 03/19/15 12:09 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

when they have absorbed all competition (a key component to functional capitalism



According to who?


--------------------
Think for yourself, question authority

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InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21429729 - 03/19/15 05:39 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Marketing is a huge component of the materialistic world we live in. More than half of what you pay for (sometimes significantly more) when you buy shit, is advertising costs. That employer in your example wouldnt make the same money if he spent it on the employee. I'm just really disillusioned with capitalist rhetoric and my experiences within the capitalist society. At a certain point in a capitalist society, you reach a level in which companies have grown to extraordinary sizes, they have been reinvesting in their companies for 100, 50, or even 10 years of reinvesting capital, when they have absorbed all competition (a key component to functional capitalism), and manipulated all major markets to an extreme, they turn their gaze to government control. Business will achieve its goals given a long enough timeline, and when they have incredible market control and equity beyond the scope of what any new business can conjur to compete, the timeline of their existence is indefinite. Once they control the government you have the same outcome as you do under communism. Wages are reduced to levels of subsistence. A two tier class system emerges, where a small group of people run the show. Police are militarized to protect the royal class from all who might oppose them. Its the same god damn thing, and its happening here. The public becomes increasingly dependent on safety net programs. At the rate we're going, we will all be on welfare and a small group of people will be running everything, again, given a long enough timeline.

Just my take.




Labor needs a stronger voice in the boardrooms of corporations. Germany gives labor equal number of seats at the board as share holders and it makes a huge impact. When the Board and Executives make their highest priority to cut labor costs as low as possible to increase compensation at the top and payout to shareholders, then we get an ever increasing wage gap. We are in the era of privatizing the profits and socializing the costs/risks and it's shrinking the middle class which is essential if you want a healthy democracy.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Libertarianism, Anarchism, Social Darwinism, and Free Market Capitalism is intellectual laziness [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #21431909 - 03/19/15 04:02 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Do they have armies?  Can they arrest you and throw you in jail?




In case you haven't heard, much of our prison system in America is privatized -- run by privately owned corporations that do dispense justice for a profit.



Is this a joke?  They do not dispense justice.  They are hired contractors.  They cannot dispense justice any more than I can


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