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Offlineagreedwitboardrule
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Coir nutritional issues?
    #21420074 - 03/17/15 11:22 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Hey hey,

I remember being told a few times that coir doesn't provide mushrooms with lots of nutrition.....i am gonna do a WBS tek to make some spawn to then mix with coir and monotub it.

I was wondering the lack of 'nutrition' in coir....means what? the mushrooms won't produce good spores? or....? what? I need to add something extra into the mix like used coffee grounds to make the substrate have a higher nutritional value so the mushrooms can grow properly?

Please clear this up for me.

Thanks

Your fellow mushroomer


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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: Coir nutritional issues? [Re: agreedwitboardrule]
    #21420100 - 03/17/15 11:27 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

agreedwitboardrule said:
Hey hey,

I remember being told a few times that coir doesn't provide mushrooms with lots of nutrition.....i am gonna do a WBS tek to make some spawn to then mix with coir and monotub it.

I was wondering the lack of 'nutrition' in coir....means what? the mushrooms won't produce good spores? or....? what? I need to add something extra into the mix like used coffee grounds to make the substrate have a higher nutritional value so the mushrooms can grow properly?

Please clear this up for me.

Thanks

Your fellow mushroomer



Coir is the next best thing to manure......it will work just fine.....don't know where the whole "coir lacks nutes" came from....

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InvisibleGrey
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Re: Coir nutritional issues? [Re: PussyFart]
    #21420111 - 03/17/15 11:31 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

I think one proponent of that idea was Violet. Apparently no one has met her challenge of growing solely on coir.


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Invisiblejenkinz
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Re: Coir nutritional issues? [Re: agreedwitboardrule]
    #21420112 - 03/17/15 11:31 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Coir works very well. You can follow this tek.

I've  always used ZooMed's coir bricks. You can get them in three packs pretty cheap online. Big pet stores in the US sell them for 9 bucks or so.

You could probably spend forever trying to figure out the perfect substrate. Just use one that's simple and proven. Coir is both of these.


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Offlineagreedwitboardrule
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Re: Coir nutritional issues? [Re: jenkinz]
    #21420188 - 03/17/15 11:54 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

jenkinz said:
Coir works very well. You can follow this tek.

I've  always used ZooMed's coir bricks. You can get them in three packs pretty cheap online. Big pet stores in the US sell them for 9 bucks or so.

You could probably spend forever trying to figure out the perfect substrate. Just use one that's simple and proven. Coir is both of these.




I've already bought some mystery coir from the chinese internet, i already planned to follow that tek!!!! been reading it over and over for a week now.

Thanks for the advice though.


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Offlineagreedwitboardrule
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Re: Coir nutritional issues? [Re: agreedwitboardrule]
    #21420194 - 03/17/15 11:56 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

i currently have 1 BRF cake colonizing while the rest are being all slow......would it be possible to mix that BRF cake with half a block of coir in a small monotub and get some sort of result? or is it just a waste of time?

I don't really wanna put in the time and effort to look after this single BRF cake for the next few week


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Coir nutritional issues? [Re: PussyFart]
    #21420507 - 03/17/15 01:32 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

PussyFart said:
Quote:

agreedwitboardrule said:
Hey hey,

I remember being told a few times that coir doesn't provide mushrooms with lots of nutrition.....i am gonna do a WBS tek to make some spawn to then mix with coir and monotub it.

I was wondering the lack of 'nutrition' in coir....means what? the mushrooms won't produce good spores? or....? what? I need to add something extra into the mix like used coffee grounds to make the substrate have a higher nutritional value so the mushrooms can grow properly?

Please clear this up for me.

Thanks

Your fellow mushroomer



Coir is the next best thing to manure......it will work just fine.....don't know where the whole "coir lacks nutes" came from....



Yes, yet manure is still second best to straw, so that actually puts coir a ways down.

Coir is great. Doesn't matter that it's low in nutrition. That's not its purpose, or at least far from its main one.


It's true I challenged people to grow from coir alone, with a pretty substantial offer to anyone who could pull off a certain yield from it.  It was related to claims made quite some time ago.  Yet indeed nobody came through.


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
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OfflineGanon
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Re: Coir nutritional issues? [Re: Violet]
    #21420612 - 03/17/15 01:42 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Typically, bulk substrate is supposed to be a tad lower in nutrients in comparison to your jar substrate. This is so it renders it difficult for other mould colonies to grow on it. This, along with proper pasteurization gives your myc a head-start and allows it to colonize the bulk sub while putting competitor moulds at a disadvantage, due to their spores being killed and not being able to expand on the low-nutrient substrate.

Perhaps the rumour that coir/verm was a bulk sub that had nutritional issues originated from the fact that moulds are practically unable to colonize it. I guess people could assume that this is because there is "no" nutrients in coir, which is simply not true.

And I've the texture of straw promotes a "wick" effect and repels moisture, so I would think manure would still dominate over it for this reason. Although, I think straw is higher in carbohydrates and manure in nitrogen.


--------------------


Edited by Ganon (03/17/15 01:43 PM)

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Offlinesilverstem
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Re: Coir nutritional issues? [Re: agreedwitboardrule]
    #21420704 - 03/17/15 01:47 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

agreedwitboardrule said:
i currently have 1 BRF cake colonizing while the rest are being all slow......would it be possible to mix that BRF cake with half a block of coir in a small monotub and get some sort of result? or is it just a waste of time?

I don't really wanna put in the time and effort to look after this single BRF cake for the next few week



waste of time.... u need more cakes.. one cake to half a brick of coir is like a 1:15 ratio assuming its half pint jar try to get need at least 5 half pints to half a brick of coir.. and thats still a low ratio...


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OfflinecronicrFacebook
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Re: Coir nutritional issues? [Re: Violet]
    #21421051 - 03/17/15 02:48 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
Quote:

PussyFart said:
Quote:

agreedwitboardrule said:
Hey hey,

I remember being told a few times that coir doesn't provide mushrooms with lots of nutrition.....i am gonna do a WBS tek to make some spawn to then mix with coir and monotub it.

I was wondering the lack of 'nutrition' in coir....means what? the mushrooms won't produce good spores? or....? what? I need to add something extra into the mix like used coffee grounds to make the substrate have a higher nutritional value so the mushrooms can grow properly?

Please clear this up for me.

Thanks

Your fellow mushroomer



Coir is the next best thing to manure......it will work just fine.....don't know where the whole "coir lacks nutes" came from....



Yes, yet manure is still second best to straw, so that actually puts coir a ways down.

Coir is great. Doesn't matter that it's low in nutrition. That's not its purpose, or at least far from its main one.


It's true I challenged people to grow from coir alone, with a pretty substantial offer to anyone who could pull off a certain yield from it.  It was related to claims made quite some time ago.  Yet indeed nobody came through.



hmmm i'm down for a challenge...what's the scoop?


--------------------

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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Coir nutritional issues? [Re: Ganon]
    #21421147 - 03/17/15 03:04 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Ganon said:
Typically, bulk substrate is supposed to be a tad lower in nutrients in comparison to your jar substrate. This is so it renders it difficult for other mould colonies to grow on it. This, along with proper pasteurization gives your myc a head-start and allows it to colonize the bulk sub while putting competitor moulds at a disadvantage, due to their spores being killed and not being able to expand on the low-nutrient substrate.

Perhaps the rumour that coir/verm was a bulk sub that had nutritional issues originated from the fact that moulds are practically unable to colonize it. I guess people could assume that this is because there is "no" nutrients in coir, which is simply not true.

And I've the texture of straw promotes a "wick" effect and repels moisture, so I would think manure would still dominate over it for this reason. Although, I think straw is higher in carbohydrates and manure in nitrogen.




No, bulk subs are far more than a tad less nutritious. If they were even just half as nutritious they would need to be sterilized and treated as such.  They are FAR weaker, in the case of coir/verm  to the point of being nearly or totally unable to support even the full expansion of a mycelium colony - they stall and switch modes similar to a patch in the ground or a buried cake - they don't colonize outward forever.  There's always some level of "nutrition" to find in organic material but at a point it isn't worth it; and the mycelium fruits instead.  If all they had to begin with is material that would stimulate them to just fruit, then they likely don't even have enough to fruit to begin with - hence why all attempts to grow on coir/verm alone, as per my challenge, failed.

I've seen mold grow on some incredibly nutritionally weak mediums.  It may not be a 100% causative factor.
You can see mold grow on agar media, for instance, diluted to 1/10 strength or even less.
If your idea is that mold is less of a problem on less nutritious subs, you'll just end up supporting my point.

The same helpful thermopilic bacteria that compost and defend our bulk substrates from mold when pasteurized become ravenous bacterial contaminants when in the nutritious-rich grains we must so carefully keep sterile.  To me, the fact that those organisms can only get an established defensive presence in bulk subs instead of outright blooming and fermenting them is a stron evidence of the fractional bio-activite nutrition of bulk substrates relative to powerful grains.


Straw does lose moisture easily on its own, except in bags/logs. That's why it's best mixed in with other subs. You can still use a very high ratio of shredded straw as long as you have another sub to make it a cohesive mass.


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts

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OfflineGanon
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Re: Coir nutritional issues? [Re: Violet]
    #21421193 - 03/17/15 03:14 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
If your idea is that mold is less of a problem on less nutritious subs




:smile::thumbup:


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Coir nutritional issues? [Re: cronicr]
    #21421241 - 03/17/15 03:25 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

cronicr said:
hmmm i'm down for a challenge...what's the scoop?



Well, it was a while ago.  I offered to give 100 containers to the first person (read: anyone) who could produce a noteworthy fraction of Frank's claim of a typical mono tub yield for him - I believe it was 1/3, which would have been like 3.5-4oz dry in the first flush.  The grower could use only a coir/verm sub, as most growers do and all the growers who picked at me (spurring me to make the challenge) certainly do/did. In order to ensure that the least amount of nutrition was added via inoculant, over-eaten agar wedges were to be used to start colonization.  Shaking was allowed.
Never saw a single fruit :shrug:
I'm not willing to part containers now, as I have an important purpose for them in the future... not that I could have parted with them anyway.
I really would love to see it done with worthwhile results. It means we could grow with only brf agar and straw/manure - essentially free.  But we haven't and we aren't.  I think that's really all the evidence called for.

Quote:

Ganon said:
Quote:

Violet said:
If your idea is that mold is less of a problem on less nutritious subs



:smile::thumbup:




Quote:

Violet said:
If your idea is that mold is less of a problem on less nutritious subs, you'll just end up supporting my point.





--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts

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Re: Coir nutritional issues? [Re: Violet]
    #21421322 - 03/17/15 03:29 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

well i don't need containers anyway but it sounds interesting enough, i've fruited from manure and stem butts before:lol: getting a whole tub to colonize sounds tricky though:lol:


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It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn

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OfflineGanon
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Re: Coir nutritional issues? [Re: Violet]
    #21421348 - 03/17/15 03:33 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

I understood what you meant Violet. I support your point, no worries. Haha. :grin:


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Coir nutritional issues? [Re: Ganon]
    #21421413 - 03/17/15 03:45 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Same page then :thumbup:

Cron, I figured it would be done in bags, sterile, since inoculating with agar.


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts

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OfflinecronicrFacebook
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Re: Coir nutritional issues? [Re: Violet]
    #21421472 - 03/17/15 03:53 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
Same page then :thumbup:

Cron, I figured it would be done in bags, sterile, since inoculating with agar.



that's a great solution


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It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn

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Offlineagreedwitboardrule
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Re: Coir nutritional issues? [Re: cronicr]
    #21426979 - 03/18/15 02:06 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

So does coir being different or lower in nutes to other things make any difference to the power/potency of the mushrooms or anything like that?


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OfflinecronicrFacebook
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Re: Coir nutritional issues? [Re: agreedwitboardrule]
    #21426983 - 03/18/15 02:07 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

agreedwitboardrule said:
So does coir being different or lower in nutes to other things make any difference to the power/potency of the mushrooms or anything like that?



no


--------------------

It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn

I'm tired do me a favor

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Offlineagreedwitboardrule
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Re: Coir nutritional issues? [Re: silverstem]
    #21427008 - 03/18/15 02:17 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

silverstem said:
Quote:

agreedwitboardrule said:
i currently have 1 BRF cake colonizing while the rest are being all slow......would it be possible to mix that BRF cake with half a block of coir in a small monotub and get some sort of result? or is it just a waste of time?

I don't really wanna put in the time and effort to look after this single BRF cake for the next few week



waste of time.... u need more cakes.. one cake to half a brick of coir is like a 1:15 ratio assuming its half pint jar try to get need at least 5 half pints to half a brick of coir.. and thats still a low ratio...




I will use a quarter brick of coir then.....or half of a quarter...it really doesn't wanna i just wanna experiment.

Should i break up the BRF cake into smaller pieces and it will re colonize? or just leave it whole (surrounded by a mixture of coir and vermiculite?

Random question....can i add used coffee grind into the mix for more nutrition? I make coffee every day and have a fairly decent amount of it sitting around.

Thoughts????

The reason i wanna try this is that my Agar that i'm gonna use to colonize the WBS can't be started until tomorrow night ,which means at least a few days wait for the agar to grow, then after that's done i gotta prep the WBS and transfer the good Agar across....so minimum like probably 5 days until i can actually do something......so it would be fun to experiment inbetween, and one single BRF cake isn't really worth much to me.


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