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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Rationalization
    #2141824 - 11/28/03 10:58 AM (13 years, 15 days ago)

This is the process whereby we think that we are above the ethical rules that apply to everyone else. It always starts in small arenas and when no immediate karmic reaction occurs, we become bolder and push further and further. First we break minor promises and tell small lies and move on from there.


"I can take this because the company will not miss it. It is just a few diskettes."

"If my boss had givin me the raise I deserved, I wouldn't have been forced to take that computer."


"Kissing another woman is not really cheating on my wife."

"Well I wouldn't have slept with her if my wife wasn't such a bitch."


"He deserved to be punched in the face."

"I shot the bastard because he had it coming."


The list is endless. Next thing you know, whole countries are rationalizing why it is OK to go to war with only a few thousand civilian deaths and besides, we need the product the other country produces."

Yup! Morals and ethics ONLY apply to others; never to ourselves. As Robert Ringer succinctly put it: "Wrong is what others do. Right is what I do."


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Rationalization [Re: Swami]
    #2141869 - 11/28/03 11:32 AM (13 years, 15 days ago)

yeah, it's amazing to see how fast logic flies out the window when people go into rationalization mode.




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Anonymous

Re: Rationalization [Re: Swami]
    #2141909 - 11/28/03 12:15 PM (13 years, 15 days ago)

That's a good point.

However, the verb is normally used as a transitive verb and not as a intransitive one.  To rationalize means to make rational or interpret something from a rational standpoint.

Hey, I was just rationalizing. :wink:

:lol:


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OfflinePanoramix
Getafix
Male

Registered: 11/26/03
Posts: 634
Loc: Everywhere else
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Re: Rationalization [Re: Swami]
    #2141958 - 11/28/03 12:44 PM (13 years, 15 days ago)

"Wrong is what other people do, right is what I do."

Arr, that's it, matey!  I do what's right for me.  That's just the way I do things.  Hence, what I do do is right (for me).  I don't force my lifestyle on anyone else, and I'm doing 'right', technically.  One might even say I do Good.  You know I try.  Don't presume to judge my lifestyle.

It's true, I do eat meat and drink dairy products.  That's certainly forcing my lifestyle on someone else, being as turkeys are people, too.  What can I say?  I'm not only wrong, I'm a dirty, rotten non-practising-what-yer-preaching-kinda-thingie-guy!!!  :razz: :mad2:

:smirk: :smirk: :smirk:  :smirk: :smirk: :smirk:


--------------------
Don't worry, I'm wrong.


Edited by Panoramix (11/28/03 12:50 PM)


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Invisiblethe_Landotter
Gnostic Chaoist

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 340
Loc: R'lyeh
Re: Rationalization [Re: Panoramix]
    #2142241 - 11/28/03 03:22 PM (13 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

It's true, I do eat meat and drink dairy products. That's certainly forcing my lifestyle on someone else, being as turkeys are people, too. What can I say?




Only karma-free spot on the food chain is at the v. bottom, pal. And guess who's occupying that spot when we go to look?

The mushroom.

Yup.


--------------------
* * * * * * * * * *
Read the Landotter's Mystical Journey Journal


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Invisiblesunyata
nonexistentexistentialist
Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 133
Re: Rationalization [Re: Swami]
    #2142372 - 11/28/03 04:50 PM (13 years, 15 days ago)

Swami, I think all ethics are rationalization. Some are more rational than others, but they are never beyond evaluation and questioning.

Surely you must agree that ethics are culturally situated? In some cultures it is ethically acceptable to beat your wife because her veil slipped and another man saw her chin. In other places and times there has been nothing unethical or immoral about sacrificing virgins to get better crops. Aristotle said it was only right and natural that some humans should be enslaved by others. In our own society it is apparently perfectly ethical to breed animals and house them in terrible living conditions for the entirety of their lives, only to kill them and sell their flesh at fast food restaurants. Morality shifts as societies change; individual ethical codes also are subject to revision across the life span, as detailed in depth by developmental psychologists (Kohlberg, Gilligan, etc).

If you think there is an absolute source that can give us a hard and fast rule of what is right and what is wrong, what is it? God? Nietzsche pretty much put that one to rest for most thinking people. The law? Surely you can recognize a difference between legality and morality. Common consensus? Relying on that has worked wonders for us so far, as you point out.

I'm not trying to be combative here -- I am genuinely curious what this moral code you imply entails, and where it comes from.


Edited by sunyata (11/28/03 05:00 PM)


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Offlinejong21
Mycologist/CSMajor

Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 576
Loc: Berkeley, CA
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: Rationalization [Re: sunyata]
    #2142619 - 11/28/03 06:26 PM (13 years, 15 days ago)

I think the kind of rationalization that is most dangerous is not the kind the applies to morals and ethics, as morals and ethics are all arguable as has been explained here. The kind of rationalization that is the most dangerous is the type of rationalization people use to mess up their own personal lives. i.e. drugs, alcohol....Rationalization is what keeps drugs addicts from accepting that they really do have a problem. I see a friend of mine shooting up heroin 4 times a day and I confront her about it, and she says, you don't even know how much I'm doing, I'm barely going through a quarter gram a day, that's nothing! Regardless, it is 4 times in one day! She isn't doing it for the high, or experience, she's doing it to put her problems aside and get through the day without it being to hard on her, but all she sees is that her shots are half or 1/4 as big as shots she'd normally take to get high and that's all she needs to know to justify what she's doing. And it is amazing to me how COMPLETELY sure of her self she makes herself appear...when I'm sure she has more doubts going through her head than she'll admit

so I know I've digressed but the topic IS rationalization after all so I figured I'd try out a different aspect of it.


--------------------
I either talk about my friends in the first or third person, but I never, ever talk about myself on this website. Except that last sentence.


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OfflineAlan Stone
Corpus

Registered: 11/23/02
Posts: 986
Loc: Ten feet up
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
Re: Rationalization [Re: jong21]
    #2142716 - 11/28/03 07:06 PM (13 years, 15 days ago)

Ethics are personal, not universal. There are no objective grounds for ethics. The multitude of different ethical systems go to show this, even within the same culture.
Legislation, on the other hand, is the application of censesus on ethics, to ensure the stability of society. A crime can be rationalised, because of the technical nature of legislation. Ethics cannot, because they always depend on gut feeling.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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Offlinemonoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)

Registered: 09/07/02
Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: Rationalization [Re: Swami]
    #2143198 - 11/28/03 11:15 PM (13 years, 15 days ago)

Sorry that I'm morally imperfect.

I've taken small office supplies and I have yet to get in a fist fight or shoot someone.

Is this like a gateway morality theory?


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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OfflineViveka
refutation bias
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 4,061
Last seen: 2 months, 8 days
Re: Rationalization [Re: Swami]
    #2143502 - 11/29/03 01:50 AM (13 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

It always starts in small arenas and when no immediate karmic reaction occurs, we become bolder and push further and further.




I offer 10,000 dollars to the first person who can prove to me that "karmic reactions" occur.


HAHAHAA. Sorry man, couldn't resist.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,849
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 14 days, 17 hours
Re: Rationalization [Re: Viveka]
    #2143822 - 11/29/03 06:59 AM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

EvilEye? said:
I offer 10,000 dollars to the first person who can prove to me that "karmic reactions" occur.





Cause and effect? Every action has some sort of reaction, my friend. I won't take your money, but that is just because I assume you don't have it. If you sincerely think that there is any action or thought that we make that doesn't have some sort of consequence or reaction, than you are really need to boost up your awareness of the situation that we are in.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflinePositronius
playboy

Registered: 11/27/03
Posts: 947
Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: Rationalization [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2143829 - 11/29/03 07:21 AM (13 years, 14 days ago)

fireworks:
Cause and effect? Every action has some sort of reaction

-that proves absolutly nothing about karma.



--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,849
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 14 days, 17 hours
Re: Rationalization [Re: Positronius]
    #2143854 - 11/29/03 08:09 AM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Positronius said:
-that proves absolutly nothing about karma.
 




Isn't that what karma is, essentially?

Quote:


Dictionay.com says:

Karma: The total effect of a person's actions and conduct during the successive phases of the person's existence, regarded as determining the person's destiny.




Hhhm.... cause and effect. If I kick someone in the ass for no reason walking down the street, it is going to cause waves of effect not only within myself, but him and every person watching. If I decide to quit playing bass guitar and walk away from a deep desire to make music and become an accountant instead, that is going to be one decision that is going to have a lot more effect on who I become, leading me into new situations and new people that will bring new things out of me, which will also effect those people differently...

If we do indeed reincarnate, and these effects from these causes lead into our next existance, than call it karma, but it is still cause and effect.

Now, show me the money! :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Edited by fireworks_god (11/29/03 08:14 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Rationalization [Re: sunyata]
    #2143914 - 11/29/03 10:04 AM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Yours, jong21's, and Alan Stone's posts are entirely incorrect. But, the beauty of this internet thing is that you can do research.

That's all.

Have a great day.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,944
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: Rationalization [Re: ]
    #2144040 - 11/29/03 11:52 AM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Some people think Karma is just simply "What comes around goes around"

If you do some bad shit, it'll come back to you...etc etc

But, I think thats a lil misleading...
Thats not karma, thats just logic...if you treat others like shit, you're gonna get treated like shit back...
and at the same time, good things happen to bad people all the time, and bad things happen to good people all the time...so wheres the "karma" in that? :smirk:

But as far as broad destinies go, thats another story, but, logic can still be found in it.

Actually, to quote "Francine" on LoF's thread...Karma is "experience" you've collectively gained through-out your past lives...
and thent theres "Karmic-Ties" and "karmic Debts"...etc..it's all explained there
Food for thought 


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineAlan Stone
Corpus

Registered: 11/23/02
Posts: 986
Loc: Ten feet up
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
Re: Rationalization [Re: ]
    #2144124 - 11/29/03 12:32 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Mr_Mushrooms said:
Yours, jong21's, and Alan Stone's posts are entirely incorrect. But, the beauty of this internet thing is that you can do research.




That sure is an intelligent refutation of my post. Does it come with any arguments?


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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Anonymous

Re: Rationalization [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2144843 - 11/29/03 06:22 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Nope.

I function a little different from others around here.  I actually am capable of making statements without an attempt to defend them.  As I implied, there are plenty of arguments against your idea(s).  It is up to you to pursue them if you want to understand things the way they really are.

There are, for your convenience, links in the Philosophy Link Sticky at the top of this forum.  Their purpose is educational.

Enjoy! :smile:

MM 


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Offlinesoylent_green
The greatEnitsuj
Female

Registered: 12/11/02
Posts: 765
Loc: Ontario
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
Re: Rationalization [Re: ]
    #2144897 - 11/29/03 06:41 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

i get what your saying, and i think i have pretty stong morals..and try to do the right thing..but when i see friends doing soemthing i knwo is wrong..i don't tend to speek up..mabey i rationalize by saying 'it's not my place'...? i don't know
sometimes it can be hard to do the right thing..


--------------------
What fun is it in Nirvana while other beings are suffering?


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OfflineAlan Stone
Corpus

Registered: 11/23/02
Posts: 986
Loc: Ten feet up
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
Re: Rationalization [Re: ]
    #2145162 - 11/29/03 08:47 PM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Mr_Mushrooms said:
Nope.

I function a little different from others around here.  I actually am capable of making statements without an attempt to defend them.  As I implied, there are plenty of arguments against your idea(s).  It is up to you to pursue them if you want to understand things the way they really are.

There are, for your convenience, links in the Philosophy Link Sticky at the top of this forum.  Their purpose is educational.

Enjoy! :smile:




I'll assume there ARE plenty of arguments against my ideas. Even then, if you don't agree, it's up to you to prove me wrong, not myself, because if your intent wasn't to convince me of another viewpoint, you might as well have shut up. Saying my view on things is wrong while offering no alternative is exactly the kind of philosophical bimbo?sm the world has seen enough of at this stage.
Anyone can make statements without trying to defend them. They don't, however, turn up an interesting and mutually productive dialogue.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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Anonymous

Re: Rationalization [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2145625 - 11/30/03 02:05 AM (13 years, 14 days ago)

Alan, you said:

Quote:

Ethics are personal, not universal. There are no objective grounds for ethics. The multitude of different ethical systems go to show this, even within the same culture.





Is that what you consider an argument?

It is, in fact, one statement backed by one premise. Hardly what I would call an argument. So I replied, "You're wrong."

*shrugs*

Even then, if you don't agree, it's up to you to prove me wrong, not myself, because if your intent wasn't to convince me of another viewpoint, you might as well have shut up.

Yes, I have heard that before. You see, you are going on the mistaken premise that someone has to defend their view in order for it to be valid. That is presumptuous at best. I don't have to do any such thing and I have every right to merely state that a statement is incorrect. There was a time, read my earlier threads, when I would spend hours creating and composing threads to defend my viewpoints only to have them miscontrued and misunderstood by most of the people that post here. I don't have that kind of time anymore. If you do, good for you.

Saying my view on things is wrong while offering no alternative is exactly the kind of philosophical bimbo?sm the world has seen enough of at this stage.

Ah yes, the typical ad hom. Whatever.

Anyone can make statements without trying to defend them. They don't, however, turn up an interesting and mutually productive dialogue.

And anyone can waste their time arguing with people that wouldn't be convinced of the truth if it jumped up and slapped them in the face.

I don't have that kind of time. I prefer to amuse myself in other ways that are just as valid.

Ta Ta



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