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Offlinesweeper54
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Re: Senate Republicans Planning Sedition. [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #21413097 - 03/15/15 08:06 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-03-09/republicans-warn-iran-and-obama-that-deal-won-t-last


47 GOP Senators just wrote an open letter to Iran, basically telling them that whatever nuclear deal they may strike with the Obama administration, it won't last after he's gone.

In what world is this behavior tolerated? Ignoring the ridiculous Bibi speech, how does a group of politicians plan to deliberately sabotage diplomatic processes? Processes which would appear to yield things Americans WANT: Normalized relations with Iran, their nuclear program subdued, and stability in the Middle East.

Senate Republicans are trying to thwart peace because a different nation's leader doesn't benefit from that peace. The party of no has become the party of "holy shit seriously?" and anyone supporting that party ought to be ashamed of themselves. I'm certainly ashamed for them.




Democracy is messy. Our system encourages our representatives to speak out. If Obama wants to avoid this stuff, he should have formed a closer more cooperative relationship with Congress.





Ya, that would 'ave worked wonderfully.

What was it that Bitch McConnell said?

Quote:

The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president.





Ya, that would 'ave worked wonderfully.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Senate Republicans Planning Sedition. [Re: Enlil]
    #21414180 - 03/16/15 12:23 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
They had a long war with Iraq, and they've had multiple skirmishes since then.  Of course, they don't have nukes yet.  Once they do, that could change the balance of power.



Do you realize that Iran was invaded by Iraq?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Senate Republicans Planning Sedition. [Re: DrRedBush]
    #21414296 - 03/16/15 12:52 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DrRedBush said:
Obamas treaty will allow Iran to greatly increase the amount of nuclear centrifuges they can have thus shortening the amount of time it would take to build a nuke.



Besides being wrong on the intent of the negotiations, which is to prevent Iran from building a nuke without going to war, there's another important point that I'm not sure anyone brought up.

This deal isn't being negotiated between Iran and the United States; it is being negotiated between Iran and the U.S., Britain, France, Germany, Russia and China.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Senate Republicans Planning Sedition. [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #21414429 - 03/16/15 01:46 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-03-09/republicans-warn-iran-and-obama-that-deal-won-t-last


47 GOP Senators just wrote an open letter to Iran, basically telling them that whatever nuclear deal they may strike with the Obama administration, it won't last after he's gone.

In what world is this behavior tolerated? Ignoring the ridiculous Bibi speech, how does a group of politicians plan to deliberately sabotage diplomatic processes? Processes which would appear to yield things Americans WANT: Normalized relations with Iran, their nuclear program subdued, and stability in the Middle East.

Senate Republicans are trying to thwart peace because a different nation's leader doesn't benefit from that peace. The party of no has become the party of "holy shit seriously?" and anyone supporting that party ought to be ashamed of themselves. I'm certainly ashamed for them.




Democracy is messy. Our system encourages our representatives to speak out. If Obama wants to avoid this stuff, he should have formed a closer more cooperative relationship with Congress.




Obama has been extremely compromising with republicans on almost everything, he may as well be a republican. Rand paul is more of a lefty than obama lmao. Democracy is messy, sure, but let it be messy here in America. Lets not drag foreign leaders into our battle between belligerent bully republicans, and a soft push-over president. It makes us look weak. This letter would have had the same effect if it were sent to Obama, rather than Republicans running around playing 'gotcha' like little children in the schoolyard.

It reminds me of a time when they shut down the fucking government because waahhh wahhh waaaah... fucking selfish ignorant belligerant idiot children. They always want to point their pudgy little finger at Obama, when they are the uncompromising childish assholes. Maybe if they stopped sitting on wall st's dick every time it popped up, we could get something of value done in this country.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Senate Republicans Planning Sedition. [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21414617 - 03/16/15 05:36 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Anyone that thinks Iran is doing anything besides stalling and just trying to get temporary economic relief while they continue to hide their nuclear program is extremely naive.  They have no intention of stopping their program. Chances are they have several sites we don't even know about and their missile technology continues as well.

We're better off putting more economic pressure on them, working with the Saudis to drive oil prices down (hurts Putin too) and encouraging a more favorable regime change in Iran.  A few months of oil at $40 a barrel and Iran's leadership will lose their grip. 

A high priority of ours with Iran should be to put pressure on them to work with the Saudis and Egypt to somehow reform Islam and form some kind of regional NATO-like alliance to stop the Sunni vs. Shia fighting and instead, focus their collective energy on Islamic Extremism.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

Edited by KauaiOrca (03/16/15 05:39 AM)

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Senate Republicans Planning Sedition. [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #21414642 - 03/16/15 05:51 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

I generally agree with you. Though I think you are quite optimistic if you expect a reformationmof Islam to happen any time soon. Maybe your optimism isn't without some warrant though, given that many minority groups, such as women and homosexuals, etc. are starting to rise up against the radical aspects of the Islamic religion.

The problem here is childish way this has been handled. It is quite disgusting.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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InvisibleDrRedBush
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Re: Senate Republicans Planning Sedition. [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21414655 - 03/16/15 05:58 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

You should stop watching cnn, msnbc, and Fox News they're not real news channels. I can tell by your posts that's where a lot of your info comes from. You are horribly misslead

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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Senate Republicans Planning Sedition. [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21414665 - 03/16/15 06:01 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

I gave up blaming Republicans or Democrats a few  years ago.  I just don't see it that way anymore and refuse to position the argument as one sides "fault" with the solution being more victories at the ballot box for one side to get us to the right "place" politically.  That, to me, is a false argument used to create passive patience with the masses.

To me, our two political party system is THE PROBLEM.  We have no real choice in America as the two parties exert a mafia like grip on our political system and politicians are similar to employee of the parties and the corporations/groups (unions, non profits, PAC's, etc.) that fund them.  We need a legitimate 3rd party to absolutely FORCE all sides to from cross party alliances to get things done.  A socially moderate, fiscally conservative party would probably get 30-40% of the vote consistently which would change the dynamics a lot.  This could lead to legitimate elections reform.

Despite all of Obama's anti-war rhetoric, he upped the ante in Afghanistan and 6+ years into his presidency WE ARE STILL THERE.  We are drone bombing practically everywhere and the one place where we should probably be doing something against ISIS, we are moving very slowly.  Obama pushes the same debt schemes as GWB did, has brought much more money into the campaign funding process and pushes more and more globalist trade policies.  His health care program has resulted in record profits for insurance and  health care providers and their stock values have exploded.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

Edited by KauaiOrca (03/16/15 06:06 AM)

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Senate Republicans Planning Sedition. [Re: DrRedBush]
    #21414669 - 03/16/15 06:02 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

I don't have cable/antennae/dish... none of that.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Senate Republicans Planning Sedition. [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21414681 - 03/16/15 06:12 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:


Obama has been extremely compromising with republicans on almost everything, he may as well be a republican. Rand paul is more of a lefty than obama lmao. Democracy is messy, sure, but let it be messy here in America. Lets not drag foreign leaders into our battle between belligerent bully republicans, and a soft push-over president.




Obama's biggest mistake as a President is he has surrounded himself with a fiercely loyal team that has created a super insular presidency.  Obama has been in office over 6 years and has formed few, if any, real relationships with anyone in Congress.  When he was elected his key team were people like Jarrett, Rice, Hillary, Geithner, Summers … No new thinking.  Kept Bernanke and Gates in their positions.  No outside people who might place the interests of the voter over the interest of politics. Obama thinks of everything through a political lens. Never does anything socially with both sides …

Personally, I think Obama's risk adverse and plays it too safe. Having said that, this doesn't mean the Republicans are any better. Both sides are controlled by their money machines and spend most of their time fund raising instead of solving real problems.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Senate Republicans Planning Sedition. [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #21414682 - 03/16/15 06:12 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Until we have campaign finance reform I don't see a third partt getting very far. Bernie Sanders is considering running as an independent, but he's a self proclaimed socialist, so I doubt he'll get terribly far, though I would love to see it anyway! Jesse Ventura talked about it a little bit, but he's not really an option. He seems really leftist on some things and right on others, but he talks like he has aspergers. I don't know of any other potential independent candidates. I do know that Bernie Sanders started his career as an independent, when everyone said he wouldn't get anywhere. He would bring incredible change, that's for sure. I tend to lean to the left, obviously, but I would just as soon have Hillary as I would Jebb Bush... I really dont think she has any chance at all, despite what the media keeps saying. I love how they say it's her 'turn'... that just goes to show how fucked up things have gotten.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Senate Republicans Planning Sedition. [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21414691 - 03/16/15 06:19 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Until we have campaign finance reform I don't see a third partt getting very far. Bernie Sanders is considering running as an independent, but he's a self proclaimed socialist, so I doubt he'll get terribly far, though I would love to see it anyway! Jesse Ventura talked about it a little bit, but he's not really an option. He seems really leftist on some things and right on others, but he talks like he has aspergers. I don't know of any other potential independent candidates. I do know that Bernie Sanders started his career as an independent, when everyone said he wouldn't get anywhere. He would bring incredible change, that's for sure. I tend to lean to the left, obviously, but I would just as soon have Hillary as I would Jebb Bush... I really dont think she has any chance at all, despite what the media keeps saying. I love how they say it's her 'turn'... that just goes to show how fucked up things have gotten.




The barriers to entry the two current parties have created to keep legitimate 3rd party attempts from gaining any traction are substantial.  It isn't just money, it's the election laws and the extreme difficulty of organizing a 3rd party effort in terms of all the hoops at the federal and state level.  The two party system has essentially made it nearly impossible for a 3rd party candidate to get elected.

I agree that Hillary's a terrible candidate and when she finally hits the trail and starts speaking at events, people will be reminded of it.  Most recognizable leaders in the DEM party are near or over 70 (Hillary, Biden, Warren, Reid, Pelosi, Feinstein, Shumer, Boxer, Manchin, Webb) so they need to develop a younger bench.  Hillary's a poor speaker, average debater, thin skinned, defensive and at least as secretive as Nixon.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Senate Republicans Planning Sedition. [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #21414707 - 03/16/15 06:31 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Lol, I like your take on things mean, and I agree. If you think about it though, the number of Americans that are fed up with these two parties has been growing for a while now. That's where the tea party came from. If the tea psrty splits the conservatives up, and some kind of socialist party splits up democrats, I think we'll see these two parties slowly lose footing. I honestly think Rand Paul is going to go far this next election, though Im not much of a fan.

I think we're going to see thinks shake up a bit in the next few primaries. Obama didnt bring change, but he promised it, and thats what people voted for. They wanted something different. They didnt want another clinton, or bush, and they didnt want another status quo corporatist. I dont find either party terribly appealing, I just think republicans are more blatantly disgusting, so I flame them more.

Bernie Sanders said that in order to run as an independent it would take a grass roots movement. I think that would turn into a leftist tea party movement. We'll see.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Senate Republicans Planning Sedition. [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21414716 - 03/16/15 06:37 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Lol, I like your take on things mean, and I agree. If you think about it though, the number of Americans that are fed up with these two parties has been growing for a while now. That's where the tea party came from. If the tea psrty splits the conservatives up, and some kind of socialist party splits up democrats, I think we'll see these two parties slowly lose footing. I honestly think Rand Paul is going to go far this next election, though Im not much of a fan.

I think we're going to see thinks shake up a bit in the next few primaries. Obama didnt bring change, but he promised it, and thats what people voted for. They wanted something different. They didnt want another clinton, or bush, and they didnt want another status quo corporatist. I dont find either party terribly appealing, I just think republicans are more blatantly disgusting, so I flame them more.

Bernie Sanders said that in order to run as an independent it would take a grass roots movement. I think that would turn into a leftist tea party movement. We'll see.




For awhile, I thought social media might be a real game changer in terms of enabling new and independent candidates to catch fire … but it seems social media has been taken over by corporate America (Facebook & Twitter have the same shareholders as Exxon, JP Morgan and Google) and when push comes to shove, corporate America calls the shots.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Senate Republicans Planning Sedition. [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #21415312 - 03/16/15 10:32 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Anyone that thinks Iran is doing anything besides stalling and just trying to get temporary economic relief while they continue to hide their nuclear program is extremely naive.  They have no intention of stopping their program. Chances are they have several sites we don't even know about and their missile technology continues as well.



Do you mind telling us how you know this???


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Senate Republicans Planning Sedition. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21415327 - 03/16/15 10:37 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Anyone that thinks Iran is doing anything besides stalling and just trying to get temporary economic relief while they continue to hide their nuclear program is extremely naive.  They have no intention of stopping their program. Chances are they have several sites we don't even know about and their missile technology continues as well.



Do you mind telling us how you know this???




History of negotiations with virtually all Arab/Persian nations have been the same. It's just the same process over and over and over whether it's the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … NK did the same thing.  Start endless negotiations processes that promise progress … stretch them out … develop your program and blame the other side when they break down.

When have nuclear talks/treaties prevented ANYONE from getting a nuclear bomb once they got close to getting it?


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Senate Republicans Planning Sedition. [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #21415437 - 03/16/15 11:12 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Anyone that thinks Iran is doing anything besides stalling and just trying to get temporary economic relief while they continue to hide their nuclear program is extremely naive.  They have no intention of stopping their program. Chances are they have several sites we don't even know about and their missile technology continues as well.



Do you mind telling us how you know this???




History of negotiations with virtually all Arab/Persian nations have been the same. It's just the same process over and over and over whether it's the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … NK did the same thing.  Start endless negotiations processes that promise progress … stretch them out … develop your program and blame the other side when they break down.

When have nuclear talks/treaties prevented ANYONE from getting a nuclear bomb once they got close to getting it?




First off, Israel sabotaged the Oslo Accords. They have no desire whatsoever in giving back Gaza or the West Bank, so go ahead and scratch Hamas, PLO, and Hezbollah off the list.

Weve been invading Iran, overthrowing their leaders, giving chemical weapons to dictators to use against Iran, and collaboratng with Mossad to kill scientists, incite riots, the list goes on and on. But I'm sure THEY'RE the ones who are avoiding the peace process.

Didn't the PM of Iran just address our congress and beg them to attack Israel? Wait no, I have it backwards....

And finally, NK is irrelevant. They had nukes before the ceasefire, a ceasefire for the war WE started in the name of fighting communism. If not for our meddling, Korea could easily be unified right now, communist or otherwise.


--------------------

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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Senate Republicans Planning Sedition. [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21415464 - 03/16/15 11:22 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:

First off, Israel sabotaged the Oslo Accords. They have no desire whatsoever in giving back Gaza or the West Bank, so go ahead and scratch Hamas, PLO, and Hezbollah off the list.

Weve been invading Iran, overthrowing their leaders, giving chemical weapons to dictators to use against Iran, and collaboratng with Mossad to kill scientists, incite riots, the list goes on and on. But I'm sure THEY'RE the ones who are avoiding the peace process.

Didn't the PM of Iran just address our congress and beg them to attack Israel? Wait no, I have it backwards....

And finally, NK is irrelevant. They had nukes before the ceasefire, a ceasefire for the war WE started in the name of fighting communism. If not for our meddling, Korea could easily be unified right now, communist or otherwise.




It is tempting to debate the past and assign blame for all the various failures and, of course, take credit for the perceived successes.  But, at some point, we have to deal with what is happening right now in front of us.  Israel, for all its problems, is by far the most civilized, free, democratic country in the Middle East.  The most diverse and robust real economy, the best human rights record, the most religious freedom and a genuinely free country for visitors to go to.  Compare Israel to Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iran, etc. and it isn't even close.

Anyway, we have Iran and a nuclear program to deal with.  If you think it's OK for Iran to have nukes, I respect that.  Then, of course, the Saudis will buy nukes from Pakistan and Egypt will possibly jump in too.  If you're OK with that, then fine.  But that's where this situation with Iran is headed.  We have a mixed up fucked up world with thousands of legacy problems we have inherited and it's tempting to dig up all the messes from the past … but we have to deal with it in the here and now.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Senate Republicans Planning Sedition. [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #21415814 - 03/16/15 12:49 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Nuclear program =/= having nukes


Besides, do you think Iran wants to be wiped off the map? Because that's what would happen to them moments after a hypothetical nuke was hypothetically launched (and assuredly intercepted). Pakistan has nukes, doesn't use them. Israel, India, North Korea, Russia....all these nations we're told to fear for the exact same reasons as Iran, yet they don't use their nukes. Amazing, that.

And yeah, I'll concede that the state of Israel is more stable and free (except for Palestinians) than their neighbors, even if the only reason that's true is because they're propped up by the US and zionist inidividuals. But you have to concede that with the absence of Israel, the middle east would be a lot more stable.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Senate Republicans Planning Sedition. [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #21415853 - 03/16/15 12:57 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Nuclear program =/= having nukes.



In much the same way that having the HIV virus =/= having AIDS.


--------------------
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