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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Enlil]
    #21410122 - 03/15/15 05:29 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

The agenda has been outlined by a bipartisan group of people from each state. It cannot be warped by state officials. They can only approve or disapprove.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 1
    #21410126 - 03/15/15 05:32 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

And this agenda gets programmed into a computer? 

I didn't think so.

The bottom line is that human beings will ultimately decide on a case by case basis what is and isn't political speech and/or political spending.  Those humans will wield the highest power in our nation and will be corruptible as all humans are.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Enlil]
    #21410146 - 03/15/15 05:46 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

At the end of the day, someone must be endowed with this power. You act as though nobody of integrity remains in the world. It was people who wrote the constitution, and it will be people who fix this issue.

Apathy is not a solution. If this issue is dealt with incorrectly, it will be fixed by the same method it is broken. Power lies only with the people. They give that power, and they can take that power.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 1
    #21410158 - 03/15/15 05:55 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
At the end of the day, someone must be endowed with this power.




Not really.  If we allow everyone to speak his/her mind, that power is no longer centralized.

The bottom line is that any system you create will be corruptible.  As a result, you have to assume that the system will be corrupted just like the current one is.  If given the choice between a corrupted system where politicians are influenced by the rich and a corrupted system where the rich have a complete monopoly on speech, I'll choose the former over the latter any day.  You'd obviously choose the latter.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Enlil]
    #21410181 - 03/15/15 06:07 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

You've only provided a false dichotomy, which results in two options, in which only the wealthy have a say in anything.

A good governing system can only be corrupted once it has been erroded. Our system has erroded significantly since it's inception, but it has taken a very long time to do so. Things do occasionally need to be refreshed, but the better a job is done during those periods, the longer it takes to widdle away.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21410501 - 03/15/15 08:50 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

If you think that your proposed bandaid is going to reset the clock to 1776, you're sorely mistaken.  Within a year or two, things would be worse than they are today, then you'd be screaming for a repeal of the amendment, but no one will hear you because the system you helped put in place will silence you.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Enlil]
    #21410926 - 03/15/15 10:56 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
You seem to be under the impression that PACs are about electing a particular person or party, but there are PACs for all kinds of issues.



The ultimate goal of any PAC is to influence politicians, or to elect politicians who support your issues.

Quote:

Enlil said:
If you think that your proposed bandaid is going to reset the clock to 1776, you're sorely mistaken.  Within a year or two, things would be worse than they are today, then you'd be screaming for a repeal of the amendment, but no one will hear you because the system you helped put in place will silence you.



I understand why you feel the rich would continue to have influence, but I don't understand why you think the poor would lose their voice.  Can you help explain that?  The poor can and will continue to be able to contribute up to their individual contribution limit, which is well above what they can afford.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21410975 - 03/15/15 11:14 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Eliminate campaign contributions, eliminate spending on political ads by outsiders and you clean it up 99%. Let people contribute to a general fund.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21410985 - 03/15/15 11:17 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

How do you know what the limit is or what they can afford?  It hasn't happened yet.  Of course, whatever the limit is, it will basically mean they have no voice whatsoever unless they pool their money.  If they pool their money, TPTB will silence them by saying that it's spending more than the limit.

The rich, of course, won't be subject to those rules, because they'll operate as "media outlets" and disguise political speech as any number of things like news, etc.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Enlil]
    #21411069 - 03/15/15 11:45 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

They can use the news all they want, but they cant make advertisements. News stations will become even more of a circus, and people will llse what little faith they already have. Most of the country doesn't even watch the news. People will still have a voice via the internet, as long as net neutrality persists. Your points have some merit, but I dont believe it's nearly as much as you think.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21411079 - 03/15/15 11:48 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

I doubt we'll ever find out since that amendment is almost certain never to be ratified.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Enlil]
    #21411091 - 03/15/15 11:52 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

I know you dont want it to be, but it will be. Its been moving along quite powerfully.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21411098 - 03/15/15 11:55 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

If you think 38 states are going to ratify, you're dreaming. 

Of course, even if they did ratify, that wouldn't change anything we've been discussing.  That would only overturn citizens united.  The rich would still be allowed to spend unlimited money on political advertising.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Enlil]
    #21411547 - 03/15/15 01:42 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Theres more to it than overturning citizens united. Its an overhaul of campaign finance, and four states ratified it last year. Its not going to slow down. This thing is going to grow at an exponential rate. It's a bipartison issue that speaks to the vast majority of people. Even politicians are tired of having to pander to lobbyist manipulation.

Again, your pesimism and apathy are not applicable. There is hope for a better, more liberal future. One reminiscent of our better, more liberal past.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21411649 - 03/15/15 02:13 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Woof, there are those on the side of the rich against the rest of us and those who care about all people. You can see which side someone is on very easily. You can't reason with those who are close minded.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #21411681 - 03/15/15 02:23 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
So you think people will do better work if they're paid less?  Alrighty then.



They'll do better work if you can fire their ass for sucking.  Pay should be based on performance.  The bottom performing 10% should be fired every year.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21411697 - 03/15/15 02:28 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I still think the rich shouldn't be allowed to spend more on political campaigning than anyone else.  Call it a limit of free speech if that's what you think it is, but to me it seems like an equalizer, where everyone gets equal speech.




Why do you think that rich people who own newspapers should have a greater right to get their message out than other rich people?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21411710 - 03/15/15 02:31 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Theres more to it than overturning citizens united. Its an overhaul of campaign finance, and four states ratified it last year. Its not going to slow down. This thing is going to grow at an exponential rate. It's a bipartison issue that speaks to the vast majority of people. Even politicians are tired of having to pander to lobbyist manipulation.

Again, your pesimism and apathy are not applicable. There is hope for a better, more liberal future. One reminiscent of our better, more liberal past.



Lobbyists are citizens with the same Constitutional rights as anybody else to petition their representatives.  Further, corporations are owned by people.  Do you know why the concept of corporate personhood exists?  It is so you can sue them.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #21411736 - 03/15/15 02:39 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Lobbying is just legal bribery. They funnel cash to the pol in exchange for their vote. If the pol takes the money and doesn't do the act, the lobbyists will turn on him and support his opponent. They do what they are told. Its sad when you see the senate or house having a vote and pols looking over at their lobbyists for hand signals on which way to vote since they take so many bribes its hard to keep track. Zap of course is in favor of that, there is not much evil in the world he doesn't support.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Stonehenge]
    #21411768 - 03/15/15 02:45 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Lobbying is just legal bribery. They funnel cash to the pol in exchange for their vote. If the pol takes the money and doesn't do the act, the lobbyists will turn on him and support his opponent. They do what they are told. Its sad when you see the senate or house having a vote and pols looking over at their lobbyists for hand signals on which way to vote since they take so many bribes its hard to keep track. Zap of course is in favor of that, there is not much evil in the world he doesn't support.



No it is not bribery of any kind and it is Constitutionally protected


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