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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21400516 - 03/13/15 12:50 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

I can't believe you conservatives are still advocating trickle-down economics... it's been domonstrably proven an absolute lie, and done nothing more than inflate corporate bank accounts, and increase income disparity.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21400519 - 03/13/15 12:53 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

I agree ending Citizens United would be a huge step towards ending bribery.  :thumbup:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #21400522 - 03/13/15 12:54 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

And freedom of speech along with it.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Enlil]
    #21400559 - 03/13/15 01:11 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not sympathetic to corporate free speech, nor do I think the Constitution intended that.

How about a level playing field where the middle class and poor have a voice?  Public financing for qualified candidates? Reasonable limits on campaign contributions? Stricter enforcement on bans between candidates and super PACs?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21400562 - 03/13/15 01:12 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Campaign contributions are already severely limited...and you know that.  We've covered this many times.  Also, the only way the middle class and the poor can have a meaningful voice is by pooling money into pacs...you know this, too.

Most importantly, Citizens United had NOTHING to do with campaign contributions.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Enlil]
    #21400586 - 03/13/15 01:26 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Enlil, this issue is about politicians pandering to those with the largest wallets, as opposed to the majority opinion. There is a reason bribary is illegal. Free speech is one thing, but money is only speech in metaphorical terms. It is not speech, and it gives an unfair advantage to corporate interests, over the good of the population.

Corporations are legally bound to ake their bottom line the onky thing of concern. When they are given a larger voice in the political sphere, it makes their bottom line more important than the will of the people. Nobody deserves 890,000,000 million votes to my one. (Koch brothers have pledged $890 million to Republicans). This is corruption in it's purest form.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Enlil]
    #21400589 - 03/13/15 01:28 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Campaign contributions are no longer limited, and it has everything to do with citizens united. Thats why the Koch brothers can invest a billion dollars in the Republican party. It will be the most money ever spent on a campaign in the world in 2016.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21400593 - 03/13/15 01:30 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Are you going to join wolf-pac falcon?


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21400597 - 03/13/15 01:33 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Campaign contributions are no longer limited.



This is completely false. 

http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/fecfeca.shtml#Contribution_Limits

Corporations can't contribute to campaigns and Citizens united didn't change that:

"The ruling did not affect the ban on corporate or union contributions"

http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/fecfeca.shtml


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21400598 - 03/13/15 01:33 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Are you going to join wolf-pac falcon?



There are many organizations out there against Citizens United, some of which I've supported.  What makes wolf-pac different?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Enlil]
    #21400613 - 03/13/15 01:42 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Campaign contributions are no longer limited.



This is completely false.



Way to make an argument against a point that was never made.  He actually said this:

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Campaign contributions are no longer limited, and it has everything to do with citizens united. Thats why the Koch brothers can invest a billion dollars in the Republican party.




These games are tiring.  :shake:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21400619 - 03/13/15 01:45 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

You said, "reasonable limits on campaign contributions?"  YOU made the point.  I simply pointed out that we ALREADY HAVE reasonable limits on campaign contributions, and that citizens united had nothing to do with campaign contributions anyway.

If you didn't want to discuss campaign contributions, then you shouldn't have brought it up.

And while we're at it, no one can contribute a billion dollars to the republican party...not legally, at least.


--------------------
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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Enlil]
    #21400621 - 03/13/15 01:46 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I agree ending Citizens United would be a huge step towards ending bribery.  :thumbup:



And freedom of speech along with it.



Some of us prefer a strong middle class, good labor laws, domestic job creation, ending corporate cronyism, bribery, etc. to corporate free speech.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Enlil]
    #21400649 - 03/13/15 02:06 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
You said, "reasonable limits on campaign contributions?"  I simply pointed out that we ALREADY HAVE reasonable limits on campaign contributions



And I want it to stay that way.  But I guess that means I'm against "free speech", huh?

Quote:

Enlil said:
And while we're at it, no one can contribute a billion dollars to the republican party...not legally, at least.




More semantics games.  What do you think will happen to the money the Koch brothers donate to their favorite super PACs?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21400651 - 03/13/15 02:08 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

It will be spent independently of any candidate or party, as it must by law.

If you want to discuss independent expenditures, that's a whole other issue from campaign contributions, and that really is all about freedom of speech.  Limiting the number of signs I can put up is limiting my speech.  There's really no rational argument that it isn't.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21400660 - 03/13/15 02:11 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Check wolf-pak.com out... we've passed legislation in 4 states already, and it has been introduced in over 20 states so far.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Enlil]
    #21400682 - 03/13/15 02:26 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Limiting the number of signs I can put up is limiting my speech.  There's really no rational argument that it isn't.



As I said, "Some of us prefer a strong middle class, good labor laws, domestic job creation, ending corporate cronyism, bribery, etc. to corporate free speech.

If I bring a powered megaphone to a town hall meeting, I might be asked not to use it, infringing on my free speech, but so what?  Most people don't want to hear it, and I can still make my points at the meeting on equal footing as everyone else.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21400686 - 03/13/15 02:28 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

The Koch brothers aren't contributing from a corporation.  Are you ready to stifle their free speech, too?


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Enlil]
    #21400697 - 03/13/15 02:43 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Citizens United has devastated the political process, and for you to pretend that it does nothing to exacerbate the already rampant corruption in our government demonstrates either a lack of understanding, or some flawed conservative ideology that corruption is virtuous.

This is one issue that has incredible bipartisan agreement. 18% of Americans are on your side of this argument. Its not about 'free speech'. Money is not speech, and 4/5 of the American public agrees.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Three Myths about Government [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21400704 - 03/13/15 02:48 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

We're going to disagree on this.  I understand Citizens United backwards and forwards, and I'm not a conservative...so...I guess your theory is flawed.

The bottom line is that people should be free to spend as much as they want to get their ideas out there.  Citizens United does nothing more than give people with less money a means by which to pool their money into a nonprofit corporate form and use it to compete with those who have a lot of money.

If 4/5 of the American people agree with you, it's probably because they have the same misunderstanding about Citizens United that you do.


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