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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Beware...
    #2138864 - 11/26/03 10:49 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

THE BATTLE FOR YOUR MIND, by Dick Sutphen
There are three primary techniques used for thought stopping.

The first is MARCHING: the thump, thump, thump beat literally generates self-hypnosis and thus great susceptibility to suggestion.

The second thought stopping technique is MEDITATION. If you spend an hour to an hour and a half a day in meditation, after a few weeks, there is a great probability that you will not return to full beta consciousness. You will remain in a fixed state of alpha for as long as you continue to meditate. I'm not saying this is bad--if you do it yourself. It may be very beneficial. But it is a fact that you are causing your mind to go flat. I've worked with meditators on an EEG machine and the results are conclusive: the more you meditate, the flatter your mind becomes until, eventually and especially if used to excess or in combination with decognition, all thought ceases. Some spiritual groups see this as nirvana--which is bullshit. It is simply a predictable physiological result. And if heaven on earth is non-thinking and non-involvement, I really question why we are here.

The third thought-stopping technique is CHANTING, and often chanting in meditation. "Speaking in tongues" could also be included in this category.

All three-stopping techniques produce an altered state of consciousness. This may be very good if YOU are controlling the process, for you also control the input. I personally use at least one self-hypnosis programming session every day and I know how beneficial it is for me. But you need to know if you use these techniques to the degree of remaining continually in alpha that, although you'll be very mellow, you'll also be more suggestible.


Use the preceeding with caution.


--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all


Edited by mntlfngrs (11/29/03 01:12 AM)


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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: Beware... [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2138988 - 11/27/03 12:00 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I agree that these things are thought stoppers (although that marching one is wierd :grin:), but i'd be apprehensive to say that they cause one to be sensitive to suggestion in the way you seem to be implying (and correct me if im wrong): that it can result in not thinking for yourself per se.

This is misleading as this type of brainwashing suggestion only works if your in on it. Even the people who managed to make themselves believe that they were ritualistically satanically abused were working together with the therapist to conjure such images.
   


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Beware... [Re: David_Scape]
    #2139031 - 11/27/03 12:29 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I should have (thought I did) post a source.
THE BATTLE FOR YOUR MIND, by Dick Sutphen
One of many great reads that can be found through What the FBI Doesn't Want You to See at RaisetheFist.com

I don't think the marching one is weird. It is like chanting in a way or drum beats. Apperently any rythm that is at about the same tempo as the human heart starts to put the brain in an alpha state.

If high alpha is actualy dindicative of being in a more suggestable state than this is a good thing to be aware of. It is also interesting to note that TV also produces alpha waves.


--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all


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Invisiblemedicinebag
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Re: Beware... [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2139405 - 11/27/03 03:03 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

What about delta waves, any research on dreams?


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Beware... [Re: medicinebag]
    #2139560 - 11/27/03 04:24 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I don't know about delta but apparently watching TV and sleeping are pretty close as far as alpha beta.

Here is a scarry tidbit from the battle for your mind...

"Most audio subliminal reprogramming tapes offer verbal suggestions recorded at a low volume. I question the efficacy of this technique--if subliminals are not perceptible, they cannot be effective, and subliminals recorded below the audible threshold are therefore useless. The oldest audio subliminal technique uses a voice that follows the volume of the music so subliminals are impossible to detect without a parametric equalizer. But this technique is patented and, when I wanted to develop my own line of subliminal audiocassettes, negotiations with the patent holder proved to be unsatisfactory. My attorney obtained copies of the patents which I gave to some talented Hollywood sound engineers, asking them to create a new technique. They found a way to psycho-acoustically modify and synthesize the suggestions so that they are projected in the same chord and frequency as the music, thus giving them the effect of being part of the music. But we found that in using this technique, there is no way to reduce various frequencies to detect the subliminals. In other words, although the suggestions are being heard by the subconscious mind, they cannot be monitored with even the most sophisticated equipment.

If we were able to come up with this technique as easily as we did, I can only imagine how sophisticated the technology has become, with unlimited government or advertising funding. And I shudder to think about the propaganda and commercial manipulation that we are exposed to on a daily basis. There is simply no way to know what is behind the music you hear. It may even be possible to hide a second voice behind the voice to which you are listening.
"

With no way to detect it, it could be everywhere.


--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Beware... [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2139776 - 11/27/03 08:55 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

What about a ball peen hammer?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Beware... [Re: Swami]
    #2139783 - 11/27/03 09:06 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Used to smash tv's, radios, CD's, modems?


Oh, you mean in the back of the scull to stop thought?


--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all


Edited by mntlfngrs (11/27/03 09:07 AM)


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Beware... [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2139796 - 11/27/03 09:32 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

You left out Rush Limbaugh and FOX news.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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Invisiblesunyata
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Re: Beware... [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2140347 - 11/27/03 03:19 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Great post. Very thought provoking.

Quote:

There are three primary techniques used for thought stopping.

The first is MARCHING: the thump, thump, thump beat literally generates self-hypnosis and thus great susceptibility to suggestion.




Wow. I had never considered the usefulness of rhythmic marching in terms of affecting the consciousness of soldiers. Clearly this is a technique the military uses to help program individuals into being willing to kill other humans when commanded to do so. Neato.

Quote:

The second thought stopping technique is MEDITATION. If you spend an hour to an hour and a half a day in meditation, after a few weeks, there is a great probability that you will not return to full beta consciousness. You will remain in a fixed state of alpha for as long as you continue to meditate. I'm not saying this is bad--if you do it yourself. It may be very beneficial. But it is a fact that you are causing your mind to go flat. I've worked with meditators on an EEG machine and the results are conclusive: the more you meditate, the flatter your mind becomes until, eventually and especially if used to excess or in combination with decognition, all thought ceases.




This part of your post is what I'd really like to discuss. I wonder what you mean here by "mind" in terms of that which "goes flat". Clearly there are still brain functions occuring, right? It seems to me what is happening is that the conscious "ego" or individual self subsides -- the continual stream of inner monologue that we call our "self" is silenced. I am not familiar with alpha/beta brain states -- perhaps you would be willing to elaborate on what it really means to remain in a "fixed state" of alpha as opposed to returning to beta. I am also interested in the EEG work you have done with meditators -- what kind of research was this? Could you describe it in a little more detail? Sounds fascinating.

Quote:

Some spiritual groups see this as nirvana--which is bullshit. It is simply a predictable physiological result. And if heaven on earth is non-thinking and non-involvement, I really question why we are here.




I don't understand this statement. You say that to call this predictable physiological result "nirvana" is bullshit. I don't see the contradiction. For example, we call the predictable physiological phenomenon of dreaming "dreaming" and this does not make it invalid. Perhaps you are responding to the "mystical" connotations of the term -- the notion that we are contacting God or whatever in this process? I think these ideas are simply cultural phenomena, the coloured gift wrap around the actual "core religious experience" which is cross cultural and central to all of the world's great religions.If we remove all the mythical claptrap about the experience being "holy" then what we are looking at in enlightenment/nirvana/whatever is simply a psychological event, like any other. I don't think it's any more or less "mystical" than nose-picking but that doesn't make it unreal or false.

The bottom line for me is that this experience of enlightenment has been reported countless times in many different cultures. It is described much the way you describe it -- as the stilling of a certain mode of thinking (often an illusory sense of self) in order to experience a deeper consciousness that reveals our fundamental unity with the universe, a revelation that is accompanied with a feeling of peaceful bliss and absolute freedom. I think that you make a false assumption in considering this "heaven on earth" to be rooted in non-thinking and non-involvement as well. Perhaps the meditative state in which the unitive consciousness is felt (satori, or the pure alpha state or whatever) can be described thusly, but all of the accounts of enlightened sages involve them "returning" to the earthly realm of thought and involvement, only transformed by newfound awareness -- ie, enlightened. Most are possessed of great genius and become world-historical figures -- we are still talking about and learning from the words of guys like Jesus, Gautama Buddha, and so on. I don't think this happens to everyone who experiences the meditative state, but in my opinion it is a real phenomenon open to scientific investigation.

Again, I think you are right in that this is a psychological state like any other -- the great confusion lies in the misunderstanding of mythical connotations given to this experience by other cultures in the past. I also think that you are right in warning people to be careful with these states due to the extreme suggestibility inherent in them.

Thanks for your post. Any additional thoughts?


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OfflineDroz
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Re: Beware... [Re: sunyata]
    #2140418 - 11/27/03 04:24 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I was unaware of a thought stopping technique that led my brain down the drain, so to speak. The simple acid test of No No No. Defying my own thought... I was young and unaware, but i still vaguely remember what happened. I also read that as a meditation technique, when a thought appears you cancel it. Three times. 'Third times a charm'...

What is it with the number 3? What about a 4th hit? What would that cause? How deep down the rabbit hole?

I've been to the edge and back, but i went again and again till i fell off. Now at the bottom of the pit i see nothing, but the more and more i look at the nothingness, the closer i seem to look through to the other side.

Reminds me of a song by the Red Hot Chili Peppers, Take it on the other side.

Peace
Droz


--------------------
Evolution of Time.


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Beware... [Re: sunyata]
    #2141505 - 11/28/03 02:51 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I'm not the expert here as I noted in my second post. I should edit the first I guess. Anyway you spurred me to do some more looking. Here is some info on waves I found:

http://www.brainmachines.com/frequencies.html
-----------------------------------------------------------

beta 13-30 Hertz Awake and alert: The mental activity normally associated with Beta waves is the active awareness state that we experience from day to day at work and play. There are many external chemicals that can be induced into the brain to produce this state and they are known generally as stimulants. Some of those stimulants are small amounts of alcohol, the nicotine in cigarettes, caffeine in coffee and tea, diet pills, and amphetamines.





alpha 8-12 Hertz Relaxed: The most widely known and publicized is the Alpha wave. Most people equate this wave with ESP, meditation, and all sorts of strange ideas. The truth is the alpha waves account for only half the story. Alpha ranges between 7-12 hertz and is prominent during relaxation mostly with eyes closed, day dreaming, and upon deep self-introspection. The 1960's made this activity famous when it was found out that cannabis or marijuana, which grew naturally, induced this state in people. Scientist have found out that it was the chemical THC that caused this euphoric feeling by being a substitute for the brain's natural pleasure chemicals which are called endorphins.

Out of all the different types of brain waves there is a very interesting range called the Alpha-Theta border. I've already mentioned that the Alpha was half the story, well the Theta wave is the other half of a state of mind that brings about creativity, intelligence, and a host of other abilities the brain is capable of doing when properly stimulated.

It is a state where the central nervous system reduces input from the peripheral nervous system. The lowering of sensory input serves to normally protect the central nervous system from sensory overload caused by stress or physical damage.

Without these outside functions for the brain to control the brain expands its functioning powers. The normally unused portion of the brain becomes active and performs at maximum capacity. This range is between 7-8 hertz and this is not so surprising when you learn that the resonant frequency of the earth and ionosphere is approximately 7.5 hertz. Our brains evolved within this dynamic field and used it as a standard to function on. The mind experiences the body in a half-in half-out state of sleep or detachment. The feeling is of being conscious of all things around you but the body being in deep relaxation.

Many cultures discovered this and the methods to achieve this state naturally and artificially. Many of the worlds religions were founded on reaching this state and devised strict disciplines to do so. The Alpha-Theta range occurs during reverie, hypnogogic imagery, meditation, and by self-hypnosis. The drugs that achieve this state are controlled use of cannabis and hallucinogens.

If I remember correctly 10.0 Hz IS supposed to be a window frequency for serotonin (5ht) release, if this freq was overlaid with one that stimulated the release of adrenaline then we COULD have MDMA L/S sessions.

10.0 Hz is the freq used in all L/S research with ADD I have found, and they uniformly say everyone with ADD needs a L/S. I helped a friend with ADD get one, and it is helping her keep her job. She listens to the audio only while working, and has no trouble staying focused. Now I know why.

I know 10.5 Hz, with a secondary bb @ 8.5 enhances orgasm by orders of magnitude. Different strokes for different folks."





theta 3-7 Hertz Reverie, imagery, near sleep: The least known type outside the confines of the dream research laboratories. This wave is in the range of 5-8 hertz and is characterized mainly with light sleep, Rapid Eye Movement (REM) dreams, and hallucinations. The brain uses this state to exercise itself, somewhat like working out your muscles to make them stronger and to release overall tension. The drugs that promote this activity are, on the whole, illegal. These substances are in the general category of hallucinogens (LSD, Acid, Magic mushrooms, etc...).

Interesting Note: Your brain cells reset their sodium & potassium ratios when the brain is in Theta state. The sodium & potassium levels are involved in osmosis which is the chemical process that transports chemicals into and out of your brain cells. After an extended period in the Beta state the ratio between potassium and sodium is out of balance. This the main cause of what is known as "mental fatigue". A brief period in Theta (about 5 - 15min) can restore the ratio to normal resulting in mental refreshment.

"I used to map freqs some years ago and between 5.5 and 5.4 there is a state of huge calmness that is enormously pleasant. I don't remember exact figure but you can discover it yourself if you experiment for a while. Since brain always oscillate around carrier frequency so you just feel to what state it pulls you most."

Some time ago, Jim Lambert was experimenting with binaural beats, on his Amiga. He had swerved into your 5.5 Hz frequency. After about ten minutes relaxing and listening, he started hearing this *loud* swish click, swish click, swish click sound. Turns out that it was his heart, with the blood rushing and the valves banging!





delta 0.5-2 Hertz Sleep: Delta's frequency can be as low as 1 cycle per month (coma/Ronald Reagan) or even pure direct current (DC). The outward appearance of this area is dead to the world sleep, no dreaming, and coma occur during this state. Many people have had more than their share to drink after work or at an office party and had the irresistible urge to just go to sleep, or in extreme instances just to outright pass out wherever you were. Excessive amounts of alcohol induces the brain into the Delta state as so the body can repair and filter out toxins and poisons within itself. The body uses this state to put full effort to repair itself from the days activities. It's significant to know that 2/3's of your sleep time is taken up by this state to complete these repairs and to give the brain time to rest. Other chemicals that induce this Delta state are known as downers, things like sleeping pills, aspirin, muscle relaxants, and barbiturates. All these chemicals can be very dangerous if taken in excessive amounts which causes the brain and body to totally relax into death itself .

-----------------------------

Note the mention of pot, lsd, and mushrooms.

Would you say that the members of this community are seeking the alpha/theta state? obviously I guess. So are we putting our selves in a position to be easily influenced? Or are we inadvertantly undoing previous conditioning with self hypnosis?

If you believe anything described by site like
http://www.haarp.net/
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/MC.htm
or even think it is possible there are some interesting implications. Does the illegal status of drugs atract independant free thinkers therby leading the lambs to slaughter? Or do they actualy not want them used because it can undo what has been done?


I know this probably isn't making a lot of sense. I have absorbed a lot of new info over the last two days and so I am a little preoccupied.


--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all


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Offlinejiva
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Re: Beware... [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2143003 - 11/28/03 09:14 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I'd like to note that I have done heavy amounts of meditation and still do regular meditation.

While I can assure you I don't have normal beta wave patterns anymore, It's not because I lost my ability to think. I only think when I need to, rather than the uncontrollable wandering thoughts. I practice mindfulness mediation all day long unless I'm reading or communicating. While my thoughts are still, I am much more perceptive, and can react much quicker to things.

Tight beta waves are a distraction from the rest of your mind. And there is much MUCH more to your mind than beta based thoughts.

Nirvana is something that comes after life and after death. Not from being mindful.
^_^


--------------------
i am another you


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Beware... [Re: jiva]
    #2143099 - 11/28/03 10:22 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I think the main point is that if you are in control of it then that is one thing but if you gave that control to someone else like in a cult setting then these techniques can be a danger to you. Any hypnosis is self hypnosis. The subject must be willing or at least not be resistant. Someone with a strong sense of self direction and goals is probably fairly save in most settings (although nearly anyone can be broken with extreme measures), but someone without any direction or is seeking are in a high risk group.



--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all


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Offlinejiva
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Re: Beware... [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2143348 - 11/29/03 12:45 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I see your point, and i feel that it is a valid one. An open mind is fertile soil, for flowers and weeds.


--------------------
i am another you


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Offlinelucid
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Re: Beware... [Re: jiva]
    #2143360 - 11/29/03 12:53 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I found this post quite fascinating. I've been meditating for
many years now and Vipassena style meditation for a little over
a year. I've found that I become extreemly suggestible while
meditating and feel a complete loss of control which can be
quite terrifying. I'd love to learn more about your reasearch
and what others at S&P have experienced...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Beware... [Re: lucid]
    #2143446 - 11/29/03 01:30 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I think most people only see meditation and chanting in a good and helpfull light. I just wanted to expose the dark side.


--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all


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Offlinelucid
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Re: Beware... [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #2143901 - 11/29/03 09:45 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mntlfngrs said:
I think most people only see meditation and chanting in a good and helpfull light. I just wanted to expose the dark side. 




Yup, I definitely think that there is a very very bad side
to meditation. I got more and more depressed and anxious
while meditating. Everyone kept giving me the standard New-Age
catch-22 - i.e. "it's your ego that's making u feel worse"  :rolleyes:
Of course, there's no way to argue with such people cause it's
an opinion that can't be proven/unproven.
Enotake attended a 10 day Vipassena meditation retreat and
got quite depressed afterwards (Enotake, I hope I'm quoting
you correctly).
 


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Offlinelucid
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Re: Beware... [Re: lucid]
    #2144976 - 11/29/03 07:12 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

From the article:
"The second thought stopping technique is MEDITATION. If you spend an hour to an hour and a half a day in meditation, after a few weeks, there is a great probability that you will not return to full beta consciousness. You will remain in a fixed state of alpha for as long as you continue to meditate. I'm not saying this is bad--if you do it yourself. It may be very beneficial. But it is a fact that you are causing your mind to go flat. I've worked with meditators on an EEG machine and the results are conclusive: the more you meditate, the flatter your mind becomes until, eventually and especially if used to excess or in combination with decognition, all thought ceases. Some spiritual groups see this as nirvana--which is bullshit. It is simply a predictable physiological result. And if heaven on earth is non-thinking and non-involvement, I really question why we are here. "

Yup, he's right...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Beware... [Re: lucid]
    #2145032 - 11/29/03 07:41 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

You know I often think about these things during extended meditations.


--------------------
...or something







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Offlinelucid
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Re: Beware... [Re: eve69]
    #2145041 - 11/29/03 07:45 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

eve69 said:
You know I often think about these things during extended meditations.




um, yer not supposed to think during meditation...
you're supposed to simply observe your thoughts...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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