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Offlineleidismetsastseene
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Me and my friend are planning to do a therapeutic trip with psilocybins in Netherlands
    #21370352 - 03/06/15 11:21 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

I am currently diagnosed with extreme anxiety, to the point my life is severely halved. My friend does have depression. And I have read that a mushroom trip could be extremely beneficial to crush the over-analytical thinking and may even have positive long term effects.

I have a couple of questions.

First of all, if there was some kind of clinic where we could get professional guidance during our trip, it would be more than awesome. But I realize that this might be an overly ambitious wish.

However, if this is not possible, how to prepare for the trip, so it would not be a bad and rather useless or even an overly negative experience? Is there any good literature on the topic?

And most importantly, how can I be sure that the stuff I get from the store is clean and of high quality and I won't get something unhealthy and downright dangerous?

Our current plan with the friend goes so far as staying in a private hostel room and perhaps having the two trips separately, so we could guide each other during the two different nights.

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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Me and my friend are planning to do a therapeutic trip with psilocybins in Netherlands [Re: leidismetsastseene]
    #21370699 - 03/06/15 12:40 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, there is good literature.  Stanislav Grof has done much research and published a lot of material. I've read at least some of it. :thumbup:

Be aware for this to be effective you likely will need to revist the mushrooms over time, so think seriously about just growing your own - it's the best way to be absolutely sure.


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InvisibleThayendanegea
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Re: Me and my friend are planning to do a therapeutic trip with psilocybins in Netherlands [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #21370738 - 03/06/15 12:48 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/20001662

and also here is some good advice.

https://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/faqs/psychedelic_experience_faq.shtml#3g

good luck and keep a open mind....I think the sober sitter thing is a very good idea.:mushroom2:


--------------------
Look Deep Into Nature,and Then You Will Understand Everything Better.

Albert Einstein

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OfflineAldebaran
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Re: Me and my friend are planning to do a therapeutic trip with psilocybins in Netherlands [Re: leidismetsastseene]
    #21371303 - 03/06/15 03:24 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I have read that a mushroom trip could be extremely beneficial to crush the over-analytical thinking and may even have positive long term effects.




Well, this kind of experience might be beneficial, but it's also worth noting that the effects of a shroom trip quite often include feelings of anxiety and uncontrollable racing thoughts. So it might help if you are able to "work through" your anxieties during the trip, but it would be a kind of "fighting fire with fire" approach and I'm not aware of any professional guidance that would be available to do this in a structured way. Besides, you would probably need a series of trips to enable you to work through your anxieties, and I don't know if anyone has tried that kind of thing on a professional basis since the 60s.

It's possible that the psychedelic experience might jolt you out of your normal patterns of thinking for the duration of a trip, give you some inspiration that you are then able to integrate into your day-to-day life to some benefit, but the whole nature of a trip is very unpredictable and it's hard to say how it would affect you.

As for depression, I think the ability of mushrooms to help with mild depression has been suggested by at least some studies, a trip does at least have the ability to "take you out of yourself" and see things in a new perspective, give you something to be enthusiastic about. On the other hand, don't give mushrooms to anyone who is seriously depressed to the point of suicidal thoughts.

Quote:

how to prepare for the trip, so it would not be a bad and rather useless or even an overly negative experience? Is there any good literature on the topic?




I suppose it depends on whether you are coming from a "spiritual" perspective, or treating it as more of a medical/scientific thing, or you just want general guidance on how to trip. I think it's best to look at some general background material (there is reference material here on the Shroomery and on Erowid) and then ask any specific questions here on the message board. Some of the more famous literature on tripping (such as Leary's "The Psychedelic Experience") is a bit esoteric so I'm not sure how much help it would be unless you are already inclined to a more spiritual/buddhist way of thinking.

It's best to trip with an open mind, and without too many pre-conceived ideas about how it will be. If you are coping with anxiety, sometimes during a trip you just have to accept that you feel anxious and tell yourself that feeling anxious is OK. I find that there is a general trajectory during a trip where the beginning can feel uncomfortable and anxious, then you gradually come to accept what is happening, then you feel the euphoria of the drug hit you and the rest of the trip feels more pleasant.

There's no magic solution to getting rid of the anxiety that (sometimes) comes with the onset of a trip, the trick is to be able to accept it for what it is, accept your fears and just let yourself sink into environment of the trip. You may find that you are uneasy to start with, but then at some point you relax and think "hey, this is actually really fun, I feel good".

Quote:

And most importantly, how can I be sure that the stuff I get from the store is clean and of high quality and I won't get something unhealthy and downright dangerous?




In the Netherlands you will most likely be eating sclerotia a.k.a "magic truffles" rather than shrooms, this is the stuff that is sold in stores (smartshops). There's some general information in this Sclerotia FAQ I posted on an Amsterdam message board, some of the info needs updating but most of it still applies. Personally I prefer the McSmart products as the sclerotia is vacuum-sealed inside a plastic bag and stays fresher. This stuff is of a consistently good quality, the company have been producing the stuff for years.

Also you will need to think about dosage. A dose too small might be useless if it has little or no psychedelic effect, but a larger dose might be unwise if you are inexperienced and suffering from anxiety (because it feels intense, and this can be a bit hard to get used to at first). Usual doses for "magic truffles" are 10g for a mild/beginners dose or 15g for a standard dose/moderate trip. There are different names for the sclerotia, some types are stronger or weaker which is also something to think about. Possibly something like 15g of the Atlantis (potency somewhere in the middle, not too strong or too weak) would be about right, but it's actually quite hard to get the dosage right because the potency varies from one batch to another.

Quote:

Our current plan with the friend goes so far as staying in a private hostel room and perhaps having the two trips separately, so we could guide each other during the two different nights.




Yes, that might be an idea, then you can both "trip-sit" each other. Just make sure you have a private room where you can trip in peace.


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I wrote that, but I meant something else

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OfflineAldebaran
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Re: Me and my friend are planning to do a therapeutic trip with psilocybins in Netherlands [Re: leidismetsastseene]
    #21371375 - 03/06/15 03:41 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Another thing, if either of you are on medication, you will need to check if it's going to interfere with the trip. MAOI-type anti-depressants can't be combined safely with shrooms (if I remember correctly) and SSRIs will diminish the effects quite substantially.


--------------------
I wrote that, but I meant something else

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Offlineleidismetsastseene
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Re: Me and my friend are planning to do a therapeutic trip with psilocybins in Netherlands [Re: Aldebaran]
    #21372010 - 03/06/15 06:52 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

I take 3/4 tablet of 15 mg Abilify every day for my anxiety and schizoaffective disorder. Plus, 300 mg of Lithium!

It states in the doctor's site that it takes 16 days to get Abilify out of one's system after taking it.

Would it actually be better if I lowered the dosage of Abilify some days before my trip and had a slightly higher dosage of shrooms than usual, considering that it will be my first time?

Of course, I realize that things are getting serious here due to Lithium, just read that it is no good to take Lithium with psilocybin shrooms.

But the best news about it goes as follows: it is probably very harmless for me to cease taking Lithium one week before my trip to Amsterdam. Withdrawal symptoms are not so bad and I have ceased to take Lithium in the past too and for a short period of time I have had no problemo.

A possible plan:
1) To do a temporary fast gradual withdrawal from Lithium before the trip.
2) And lower the dosage of Abilify to 7,5 mg (so I would still take it to not lose touch with reality "in a negative way" because of my schizoaffective disorder and to still be able to loosen up my reality?

P.S. My friend has zero problemo with the matter of medications - she does not take them at all. :smile:

Edited by leidismetsastseene (03/06/15 07:02 PM)

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Offlineleidismetsastseene
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Re: Me and my friend are planning to do a therapeutic trip with psilocybins in Netherlands [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #21372036 - 03/06/15 06:58 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Yeah, there is good literature.  Stanislav Grof has done much research and published a lot of material. I've read at least some of it. :thumbup:

Be aware for this to be effective you likely will need to revist the mushrooms over time, so think seriously about just growing your own - it's the best way to be absolutely sure.




Thanks, I'll check him out :smile:

In my country sadly it is illegal to grow my own shrooms... I could end up in jail. lol That being said I could nevertheless have some possibilities to explore......

Edited by leidismetsastseene (03/06/15 07:11 PM)

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OfflineHygrocybe
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Re: Me and my friend are planning to do a therapeutic trip with psilocybins in Netherlands [Re: leidismetsastseene]
    #21372391 - 03/06/15 08:30 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

The Psychedelic Explorer's Guide by James Fadiman is a good book.

I'd hesitate to recommend tripping without advice suited to your condition. Psychedelics are unpredictable, they can cause anxiety every bit as much as they alleviate it. The therapeutic use of these drugs takes place under a closely controlled and supportive environment.

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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Me and my friend are planning to do a therapeutic trip with psilocybins in Netherlands [Re: leidismetsastseene]
    #21372678 - 03/06/15 09:46 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

leidismetsastseene said:
Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Yeah, there is good literature.  Stanislav Grof has done much research and published a lot of material. I've read at least some of it. :thumbup:

Be aware for this to be effective you likely will need to revist the mushrooms over time, so think seriously about just growing your own - it's the best way to be absolutely sure.




Thanks, I'll check him out :smile:

In my country sadly it is illegal to grow my own shrooms... I could end up in jail. lol That being said I could nevertheless have some possibilities to explore......




It's no different here but that doesn't stop anybody with an interest in it. :thumbup:


--------------------

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Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 

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OfflineAldebaran
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Re: Me and my friend are planning to do a therapeutic trip with psilocybins in Netherlands [Re: leidismetsastseene]
    #21374650 - 03/07/15 01:58 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I take 3/4 tablet of 15 mg Abilify every day for my anxiety and schizoaffective disorder. Plus, 300 mg of Lithium!




The combination of lithium and shrooms doesn't sound too good, I can't find many concrete facts but wikipedia links lithium with serotonin syndrome in combination with "serotonergic medications". There are some shroomery threads mentioning seizures when lithium is combined with LSD....sounds potentially dangerous to combine it with shrooms.

Abilify would probably also be a problem because it looks like it will interfere with your ability to trip...

Quote:

circastes wrote:Abilify is extremely good at blocking the main receptors mushrooms use, such as 5HT2a.




But the thing that really concerns me is the schizoaffective disorder - looking at wikipedia it seems like the name covers quite a range of symptoms, but the diagnosis seems to imply that you have at least some level of ongoing psychosis which you are being treated for....

The problem is that there are many features of a shroom trip which are similar to the symptoms of the disorder - for example it says

Quote:

Common symptoms of the disorder include hallucinations, paranoid delusions, and disorganized speech and thinking.




Those are also symptoms of a shroom trip, especially at higher doses. So you would be reducing the dose of a medication designed to prevent these kind of symptoms, then taking a recreational drug that is likely to produce them.

This was a reply in the Abilify thread I was reading:

Quote:

circastes wrote: Okay, trip timeline: Boredom --> Agitated --> Borderline psychotic / rage (suppressed) --> Plateau of some kind --> Accelerated thinking with some psychedelic features --> Comedown ...

No visuals. Very little ecstasy. Feels like there's been a moderately bad interaction in the brain. Don't recommend.




My concern is that the shrooms + schizoaffective disorder could trigger some kind of psychotic episode by exaggerating some of the normal aspects of a trip, such as disordered thinking, especially if you have recently reduced your dose of the antipsychotic.

Obviously it's up to you what you decide to do, you know your own mental state better than I do, but personally I would not recommend tripping based on what you've told me. The combination of an anxiety disorder combined with some element of underlying psychosis just doesn't sound like a great recipe for a psychedelic trip.

Shrooms do have some positive benefits, but they involve quite a lot of "mindfuck" too, trips are not always gentle or easy to cope with. If you do decide to trip, take it easy, and report back! :peace:


--------------------
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