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OfflineMixomatosis
great ape

Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 1,306
Loc: cipherland
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: Its the Matrix Fault [Re: iamhimheisme]
    #2129371 - 11/22/03 04:38 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

mmm okay,

I wasnt really saying that the matrix was devoid of worth, but that...if one is to truly examine the canon of philosophical cinema, you will find that the philosophy of the matrix isnt all that spectacular. But...I do commend it on being such a massive hit while also delivering some intellectual stimuli.

It is a good film (at least the first one, the second was reeeely dissappointing and im not gonna bother with the 3rd). And I'm sure alot of people have been inspired to think by its message.

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Anonymous

Re: Its the Matrix Fault [Re: ]
    #2129373 - 11/22/03 04:41 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

what exactly is the philosophy of the matrix? i'm not seeing it...

there's a plot in a movie... people's brains are hooked into a computer and fed an artificial reality seperate from the 'real' reality... pretty cool. where's the philosophical significance?

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OfflineMixomatosis
great ape

Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 1,306
Loc: cipherland
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: Its the Matrix Fault [Re: ]
    #2129381 - 11/22/03 04:49 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

well, I think it draws on Buddhism alot, and how your "self" is an illusion created by your sensory experience, except it only goes halfway with this in order to transform the idea of the self-as-illusion into a critique of corporate/consumer (read: passive) culture.

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OfflineZenGecko
enthusiast
Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 285
Last seen: 1 year, 13 days
Re: Its the Matrix Fault [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2129868 - 11/23/03 12:16 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

I'm pretty much in line with most of the philosophy in the matrix, except that i dont believe free will exists, i dont believe neo could have chosen to be anything other then the one, and once he was the one and could bend or break the rules, his actions and will was still governed by all his previous experiences, gentics and exposure to the environment. Even as the one he still had to do, whatever it was he did, and that was all he could ever do.
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be
(i loved all 3 of the movies, my only complaint is the last one didn't go into as much depth or explain a few things that i wanted to know about, like the importance of the lil girl, and i wanted more info about the "source")

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OfflineEgoMagickian
human

Registered: 07/03/03
Posts: 118
Loc: San Francisco
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
Re: Its the Matrix Fault [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2130007 - 11/23/03 02:32 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

I was so disappointed by the second movie that I almost didn't see the third, but I figured I had already invested this in it, I might as well finish the trilogy. I was glad I did, because not only did I think the third movie was better than the second, I also think it wrapped things up nicely.

As for the philosophy, free will and the concept of choice was also a big deal in the movies, especially the third. I think it became more important than the other metaphysical concerns.

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OfflineOook
Oook!

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 533
Loc: England
Last seen: 19 years, 6 months
Re: Its the Matrix Fault [Re: EgoMagickian]
    #2130018 - 11/23/03 02:52 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

The worst is the animatrix, its meant to just expand on the story of the matrix but the background is silly. Humans and robots have a fall out, robots get smashed then magically form their own city. Robots fight humans, humans nuke robots but despite: 1. the EM pulse shorting all the robots 2.the immense heat frying all their electronics 3.the immense heat frying their bodies.
But nooooo despite this the robots beast us then assemble pods in a really inefficient patterns that logical computer AI would not consider. Oh yeah and how would Agents miss? A computer program running inside the matrix that understands the rules of the matrix, yet cannot with a bullet produced by a program.

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Offlinerecalcitrant
My Own God

Registered: 04/20/02
Posts: 2,927
Loc: Canada West
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
Re: Its the Matrix Fault [Re: Oook]
    #2132147 - 11/24/03 10:02 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Okay, finally this conversation is heading in a direction i like.

fyi, I liked the first one. I loved the second one. I walked out of the third.

The animatrix was good. I didn't like the "second renaissance" because, as morpheus explained in the first installment, we aren't really supposed to know how things got the way they were. The other animatrix episodes where great tho. The haunted house, kid's story, they where all unique insights into the matrix logic.

How would an agent miss? As the oracle would say: by not yet understanding the choice made by its target.

"what exactly is the philosophy of the matrix? " Im not sure the matrix has it's own philosophy. THe matrix loves to take widely misunderstood concepts and vaguely tie them in with its sophomoric plot.

ZenGecko: You don't believe free will exists? Do you, then, believe that all time is predetermined, and the universe will unfold in only one way and the future is set? Or do you believe that anything COULD happen, but it's only going to happen one way because (of something like) "we are the product of our environment/past"


--------------------

We have to answer our own prayers

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OfflineZenGecko
enthusiast
Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 285
Last seen: 1 year, 13 days
Re: Its the Matrix Fault [Re: recalcitrant]
    #2134064 - 11/25/03 12:55 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

So far it seems that the universe is indetermined, due to quantum randomness,(but randomness isn't enough for freewill) but it is possible that at some deeper layer things arent really random but just appear to be due to quantum effects, but really either way it doesnt matter. Wether its indetermined or predetermined we will still do what we do, and at the moment we did it, it was the only thing we really could have done, because it is what we did. I'm actually leaning towards the position now, that time doesn't even exist, that in fact it is a perceptual illusion rooted in our inability to percieve the whole of reality at once. So instead, because we can only percieve so much at once, or collapse so many wave functions at once, it just appears that there is a sequence of events and motion but infact, everything just is, and all of that is basically an illusion. I think everything that will happen is happening, and that everything that did happen is happening, and its all happening right now. It just is, and its just one. We are like one piece of a giant jigsaw puzzle trying to get a look at all the pieces around it and figure out what the picture as a whole looks like, but as a part of the puzzle we can never see the whole picture at once, so from our position in the puzzle reality looks completely different then the way it actually is. Ofcourse to say "how it actually is" is rather contrived, since for all intents and purposes what you percieve to be real, is in fact what is real, for you atleast, and if thats the way you see it, then u cant help but see it that way, in that moment. But to answer your question more bluntly, i believe most anything could happen, because we can never know with perfect accuracy what will happen. And that uncertainy is probably the only thing that makes life bareable. Maybe thats what is meant by gods mercy. We can always hope tomorrow will be better, or atleast that it will not be worse, and though we can never know it will be better, atleast we are spared from also knowing it will be worse, or just as bad as today. Ofcourse however we deal with that in any given moment, is the only way we could have dealt with it, in THAT moment. :wink:
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be.

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InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: Its the Matrix Fault [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2134643 - 11/25/03 10:32 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Remember: quantum randomness arises from our measurement...not from the process themselves.

I think too many people have latched on to the assumption that uncertainty in measurement equals uncertainty in reality.

Just because we don't know where the electron is...doesn't mean it isn't somewhere specific :wink: 


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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OfflineDasKomet
D 322
Male User Gallery

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 85
Loc: US
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: Its the Matrix Fault [Re: trendal]
    #2134812 - 11/25/03 11:42 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Just because we don't know where the electron is... doesn't mean it isn't somewhere specific
-------------------------------------
just as the dolphin... we are voluntary evolution.


--------------------
The Woven World is all I see.
Put cloves in your weed and tell them its for the LSD.
.oO0 Listen to White Zombie 0Oo.

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OfflineEkstaza
stranger than most
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/10/03
Posts: 4,324
Loc: Around the corner
Last seen: 11 months, 11 days
Re: Its the Matrix Fault [Re: DasKomet]
    #2135135 - 11/25/03 02:05 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Sometimes I read the words of others and wonder why everyone has to make things into such complicated matters. A balloon is still a balloon even without all of the hot air.

The Matrix was simply a great movie that expressed the idea that all of the basic emotions are present in all forms of life. People vs. Machines is a symbol for one thing against another(i.e.black/white, muslim/christian, redneck/urbanite, whatever) throughout all human interactions. It expresses the idea that we must accept each other or risk destroying everything trying to keep control of everything in just one corner.

What I heard from a lot of people that watched the Matrix Revolution is that they were disappointed because it did not have enough action in it. I was thrown back at the fact that was what they would have preferred over a truly meaningful message.


--------------------
YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.

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OfflineZenGecko
enthusiast
Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 285
Last seen: 1 year, 13 days
Re: Its the Matrix Fault [Re: Ekstaza]
    #2136820 - 11/26/03 04:11 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Quantum randomness occurs becaue we are a part of the system we are trying to take a measurement of, thus in the act of trying to measure we influence the event, thus never getting a completely accurate measurement. To do that you would have to be capable of experiencing the whole of reality at one instance of time. But i think if you could do that you'd see that there really is no time, that it is the fact that we cant do it, that causes the perception of time, or the perception of continues unfolding of events.

As far as knowing where the electron is, quantum physics says that its everywhere at once, and also in the past, and future. It basically says the the electron isn't actually there, it only exists as a wave of probability. Its this that most people have difficulty understanding. Only when we observe do we actually bring one of the probabilities into being, but unfortunetly since the act of observing effects which probability will become real, we can never predict exactly where the electron will appear. But really saying we bring probability into being isn't all that accurate, because all those other probabilities don't disappear, they are still there and the only reason they arent as real as the one we are measuring is because we arent measuring them. We literally create our reality by percieving our reality. Whats really strange is somehow the electron knows if we are looking or not. In a famous experiment they fired a single electron at two slits in a piece of paper. if you only look at the wall behind the paper a pattern of interferrence will occur. which means the electron literally passed through both slits at once. But now if you put two cameras watching both slits and fire another electron, this time the electron will only go through one slit or another, and no pattern of interferrence will occure on the wall or detector. It actually knows when your looking, you bring one of the waves of probability into being by observing, untill observed all the probabilities exist and they are all equally real. in my opinion this spooky action at a distance occurs because everything is one. you cant move your arm with out moving your whole body, because your arm is your part of your body, and your body part of your arm. They move together or not at all, Thus the position of one effects the position of the other.
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be

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OfflineEvilGir
Im the on coming storm

Registered: 11/26/01
Posts: 1,301
Loc: Planet Irk
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Its the Matrix Fault [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2136890 - 11/26/03 05:40 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

> What I heard from a lot of people that watched the Matrix Revolution is that they were disappointed because it did not have enough action in it. I was thrown back at the fact that was what they would have preferred over a truly meaningful message


Well i think there was too much action and would rater of had a a bit more story to it than oh no the machine are coming its time to fight for half of the movie.


--------------------
Fighting the man the best way I can.

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