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OfflineMisterKite
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 655
Loc: Montreal, QC
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
HELP STOP ENERGY BILL!
    #2133455 - 11/24/03 10:22 PM (13 years, 18 days ago)

Click here - please, it will really help!

Please just taking a moment out of your day to visit that link and help congress stop from passing this energy bill.

As the web page says this bill is:

- promoting dirty and dangerous energy sources like "clean coal" and nuclear power; and

- giving $8 billion in tax breaks and subsidies to polluting industries like the oil, coal, gas and nuclear industries.

At a time when oil prices are skyrocketing and America's dependence on oil threatens our national security, this bill would increase that dependence and fail to harness the potential for diversifying our energy supply with clean renewable energy solutions.

Please help everyone.


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"But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy."


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Anonymous

Re: HELP STOP ENERGY BILL! [Re: MisterKite]
    #2133496 - 11/24/03 10:38 PM (13 years, 18 days ago)

just curious... how do you think we should produce our electricity?


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: HELP STOP ENERGY BILL! [Re: MisterKite]
    #2133567 - 11/24/03 11:05 PM (13 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

At a time when oil prices are skyrocketing and America's dependence on oil threatens our national security, this bill would increase that dependence and fail to harness the potential for diversifying our energy supply with clean renewable energy solutions.




How would building nuke plants and coal plants increase dependence on oil? Sorry -- that makes no sense at all.

pinky


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Anonymous

Re: HELP STOP ENERGY BILL! [Re: ]
    #2133611 - 11/24/03 11:15 PM (13 years, 18 days ago)

it would seem to me that just from a geological perspective, all of those coal and oil deposits aren't just supposed to sit down there forever. i mean... they were once a part of living creatures... part of the carbon cycle, and now they're buried in earth's crust...

it's not a permanent resting place for them. the crusts shifts and churns and stuff... eventually, that carbon is coming back up, whether we bring it up or not.


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Offlinebarfightlard
tales of theinexpressible
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/29/03
Posts: 8,670
Loc: Canoodia
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
Re: HELP STOP ENERGY BILL! [Re: ]
    #2135585 - 11/25/03 07:34 PM (13 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
it would seem to me that just from a geological perspective, all of those coal and oil deposits aren't just supposed to sit down there forever. i mean... they were once a part of living creatures... part of the carbon cycle, and now they're buried in earth's crust...

it's not a permanent resting place for them. the crusts shifts and churns and stuff... eventually, that carbon is coming back up, whether we bring it up or not.




True, but it wouldn't come up at nearly the same rate, nor would it be burned.


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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
Divine Hermit of the Everything
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Registered: 02/19/02
Posts: 7,575
Loc: border of Canada and Mexi...
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Re: HELP STOP ENERGY BILL! [Re: barfightlard]
    #2135658 - 11/25/03 08:03 PM (13 years, 17 days ago)

the same force that propells continental drift pushes tons of matter underground to be reheated. This is how old crust is destroyed (being forced underneath another shelf and melted) and created (volcanoes, and other ways to bring magma up to the surface. Not all of it "is comming back up" when "the crusts shifts and churns"


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Offlinemonoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)

Registered: 09/07/02
Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: HELP STOP ENERGY BILL! [Re: Phred]
    #2135853 - 11/25/03 09:09 PM (13 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

How would building nuke plants and coal plants increase dependence on oil? Sorry -- that makes no sense at all.





I'm with Mark. I don't get it.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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Anonymous

Re: HELP STOP ENERGY BILL! [Re: barfightlard]
    #2150087 - 12/01/03 07:22 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

True, but it wouldn't come up at nearly the same rate, nor would it be burned.

it wouldn't come up at the same rate or time, but it would indeed be oxidized.


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OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/26/01
Posts: 16,233
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 14 days, 2 hours
Re: HELP STOP ENERGY BILL! [Re: ]
    #2150107 - 12/01/03 07:28 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Nor would millions of gallons water be forced into the wells in order to make the oil more accessible.


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Anonymous

Re: HELP STOP ENERGY BILL! [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #2150132 - 12/01/03 07:36 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

the same force that propells continental drift pushes tons of matter underground to be reheated. This is how old crust is destroyed (being forced underneath another shelf and melted) and created (volcanoes, and other ways to bring magma up to the surface. Not all of it "is comming back up" when "the crusts shifts and churns"

some of it is a gas. much of it is a liquid less dense than water. it's really a strange set of delicate geological circumstances that's keeping it trapped down there for the time being. in fact, natural seepage of oil, tar, and gas from underground deposits have been witnessed and recorded by humans for thousands of years. with enough time and shifts and cracks in the crust, i do think that most of it will come up from below. i doubt that even solid coal deposits are just going to slide under the crust, to be forever locked away in a molten state in magma... vaporized coal, oil, and gas is much less dense than molten rock.

let's pretend for a minute that that isn't true... even then, that isn't to say that this carbon wasn't once on the surface of the planet, in the air, in the water, and in the biomass on the planet.

it was there before, and it can be there again. i'm not saying that we shouldn't be looking to alternate energy sources... fossil fuels are non-renewable and they do produce bothersome pollution... but what i mean here is that i think that when you look at the big picture, bringing up and burning old buried carbon isn't going to cause any kind of ecological disaster...

i think there are more pressing environmental issues, like deforestation, water pollution, and erosion, to worry about.


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Anonymous

Re: HELP STOP ENERGY BILL! [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #2150510 - 12/01/03 09:41 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

i thought this was interesting:

"As long as humans have recorded their history, the natural occurrence of oil and gas at the earth's surface has been of great curiosity and considerable economic interest. Oil, tar, and natural gas seeps are part of the natural environment, and geological and archeological evidence shows that seepages have occurred throughout California for thousands of years. Even today, natural hydrocarbon seeps along the California coast continue to be more than an idle curiosity. Two small underwater containment structures positioned near Goleta Point, placed to collect natural seepage, have alone captured over 4 billion cubic feet of natural gas since 1982: enough natural gas to supply the needs of over 25,000 residential natural gas users each year.

HISTORIC IMPORTANCE

The importance of petroleum predates written history, evidenced in many Old World archaeological sites. It is no surprise that the Native Americans of the coastal areas of California, like the inhabitants of the Old World, incorporated naturally occurring hydrocarbons into their cultures. The earliest accounts of oil and gas seepages in California come to us from the seventeenth century annals of the European explorers. Native Indians, including the Chumash, Yokuts, Achomawi, and Maidu used oil, tar, bitumen and other natural substances from the seeps for ceremonial and recreational purposes. Oil was often used as a base for paints and asphaltum, a brownish-black mixture used in paving, roofing, and waterproofing, was used as a mastic to inlay colorful stones and shell fragments.

Pedro Fages, a Spanish explorer and military commander of the Monterey Presidio, in his report to the Viceroy of New Spain recorded the use of tar and oil by the natives near Mission San Luis Obispo. Fages' account, written in 1775, mentions natives using tar for water- proofing baskets and pitchers and for caulking small boats. Fages also noted " ... pools of bitumen bubbling out of the ground" near the mouth of the Santa Clara River. In 1776, Spanish missionary Pedro Font recorded that "... much tar which the sea throws up is found on the shores, sticking to the stones and dry, little balls of tar are also found. Perhaps there are springs of it which flow out into the sea." In 1793, during the travels of English explorer James Cook, his navigator, George Vancouver, recorded in his journal that they had anchored off of Goleta. Vancouver reported that the sea was "... covered with a thick, slimy substance, which, when separated or disturbed by any little agitation, became very luminous, whilst the slightest breeze, that came principally from onshore, brought with it a very strong scent of burning tar." He continued that "... the sea had the appearance of dissolved tar floating on its surface, which covered the ocean in all directions within the limits of our view."

Early California pioneers (c. 1850) used the oil from natural seeps to grease their wagon wheels and settlers and ranchers, especially in the Santa Barbara, Ventura, Los Angeles, and Orange county areas, used seeped oil for lubricating farm machinery, for tarring roofs, and for illumination. Early on seeps were exploited by digging directly into them. Just as one would sink a shallow water well, diggers shoveled down until oil and tar began to ooze into the pit, or until the petroleum fumes and gas overcame them. In Ventura and Kern Counties, mining techniques were used to tunnel into the mountainsides, with elaborate lighting and ventilation systems. By the 1870's, technological advances allowed the development and use of specially designed oil drilling tools to sink wells deeper than any digger could excavate.

From the 1860's to the early 1900's, every oil or gas field discovered in California was located on the basis of nearby seeps. In California, the earliest oil exploration efforts began in areas where numerous seeps, such as Ojai and Santa Paula, occurred. The first commercial oil discoveries in Pennsylvania spurred both commercial and academic interest in coastal California oil, tar, and gas seeps."

http://www.mms.gov/omm/pacific/enviro/seeps1.htm

also this:


this is the gulf of mexico. the dark areas are natural oil slicks.


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