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OfflineRandolph_Carter
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Possible legal challenge of psylocybe laws?
    #2133413 - 11/24/03 10:07 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Ok...after more than a few brushs with the law, i've learned a few things. One of these is that our pursuit of life, liberty and happiness is inviolate by a nation or a person unless it somehow harms or interferes with someone else's right to life, liberty and happiness. Also, after some extensive conversations as to why certain substances (namely marijuana) are illegal with a few officers who belonged to narc/undercover squads, i've gotten a fairly good answer: These chemicals are illegal due to the fact that someone may have been harmed in the smuggling/production of these substances/chemicals.

This basis being laid, here's a plan. Take a personally found hallucinogenic mushroom, found on private property that you had permission to enter. Throughly (and i mean THROUGHLY, with witnesses, photographs, notarization if possible) document your finding of this mushroom, and every other step of the proceeding production (for personal use, of course) of said mushroom. EVERY DAMNED STEP. With this documentation, you can prove that your cultivation of said mushroom has done no harm in any way shape or conceiveable form to ANYONE. Thusly, the government would be impinging on your pursuit of life, liberty and pursuit of (admittedly altered) happiness, thusly making your charge unconstitutional. Any flaws? I'm looking for a serious discussion, not any "it'll never work" bullshit. Find me a flaw, and help me correct it.
Stay Frosty.
R.C.


--------------------
"..all those molecules thrashing their kinky little tails, hot for destiny and the street."  Gibson


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OfflineChiefThunderbong
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Re: Possible legal challenge of psylocybe laws? [Re: Randolph_Carter]
    #2133615 - 11/24/03 11:16 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I've got a flaw for you. The American government dosn't give two shits about the constitution, they only care about fighting terrorism and drugs *cough*patriotact*cough*. As far as I know, drugs are not considered to be the pursuit of happiness because our government is a piece of shit.

I do agree with you though, your right. Unfortunatly it dosn't matter, hallucinogenic mushrooms contain two schedule I chemicals.

(From the Controlled Substances Act)
(1) SCHEDULE I.
(A) The drug or other substance has a high potential for abuse.
(B) The drug or other substance has no currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States.
(C) There is a lack of accepted safety for use of the drug or other substance under medical supervision.

(From Schedule I listing)
(c) Unless specifically excepted or unless listed in another schedule, any material, compound, mixture, or preparation, which contains any quantity of the following hallucinogenic substances, or which contains any of their salts, isomers, and salts of isomers whenever the existence of such salts, isomers, and salts of isomers is possible within the specific chemical designation:
(15) Psilocybin.
(16) Psilocyn.

*edit* Btw, this should really be in Politics and law.


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Edited by ChiefThunderbong (11/24/03 11:31 PM)


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OfflineRandolph_Carter
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Re: Possible legal challenge of psylocybe laws? [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #2133642 - 11/24/03 11:34 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I'm aware that our government doesnt give two shits, and i'm also fully cognizant of what scheduling means...Wonderfully, tho, they do have to abide by their own legalities. I'm looking for a legal basis that this would be fought on. I am neither harming nor impinging on anyone elses rights, nor am i causing harm to myself. There is no evidence that said substance has the capability to harm me physically, and my mental state is not fit territory to bring into a courtroom. Again....LAW. How can this be stopped? This would be a challenge to the illegality of psilocin and psilocybin containing mushrooms. just because the mushrooms contain illegal substances is not a flaw in said arguement...in fact, its the reason for the arguement to be made in the first place. Give me logic and law, not prevailing governmental attitudes.
Stay Frosty.
R.C.

p.s. Dont mean to sound like a dick, but i'm very curious about this possibility..i believe that it needs to be discussed. Such a precedent would allow for the personal growth of any substance currently illegal in the united states that could be found there...effectively ending the prohibition on quite a few varieties of substances.


--------------------
"..all those molecules thrashing their kinky little tails, hot for destiny and the street."  Gibson


Nuke baby seals for Jesus!

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Invisiblechodamunky
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Re: Possible legal challenge of psylocybe laws? [Re: Randolph_Carter]
    #2133656 - 11/24/03 11:40 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

If what you say does hold up in a court, do u plan to thorougly document your mushroom findings everytime you go hunting?


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OfflineChiefThunderbong
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Re: Possible legal challenge of psylocybe laws? [Re: Randolph_Carter]
    #2133660 - 11/24/03 11:41 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I think you'll get more responses in the proper forum. But, I've got another flaw for you. While under the influence of mushrooms people become delusional and can harm themselves or others, making it a terribly dangerous thing! It is considered to be a highly dangerous mind altering drug....thats really all there is to it.


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InvisibleXochitl
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Re: Possible legal challenge of psylocybe laws? [Re: Randolph_Carter]
    #2133681 - 11/24/03 11:55 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I think if you had enough resources and capital to fuel a legal duel in the courts, there is a chance that you would set a precedent. I am willingly to bet there are medical marijuana cases that essentially followed parallel steps to proving "harmlessness" - you might want to find out what the outcomes were.


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As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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OfflineRandolph_Carter
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Re: Possible legal challenge of psylocybe laws? [Re: chodamunky]
    #2133682 - 11/24/03 11:55 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Once the initial find is documented, proper growing techniques and culture processes can keep the strain viable indefinetely...and if the documentation is what it takes, then so be it.
Stay Frosty.
R.C.


--------------------
"..all those molecules thrashing their kinky little tails, hot for destiny and the street."  Gibson


Nuke baby seals for Jesus!

(This has been a +1 production.)


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OfflineRandolph_Carter
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Re: Possible legal challenge of psylocybe laws? [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #2133694 - 11/25/03 12:02 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

"While under the influence of mushrooms people become delusional and can harm themselves or others, making it a terribly dangerous thing!"

Can. And people who buy guns can potentially hurt themselves or others, as can ciggarette smokers and alcoholics. IN the case of firearms, our potential to hurt ourselves or others is garunteed by the same constitution that makes the cultivation and ingestion of a substance in a manner that does not harm or interfere with others an illegality. I have yet to see any commonlaw precedent for a government to take steps to prevent us from harming ourselves.

I figured this might have been the wrong place to post it...now to go find a mod to move the bastid...

Stay Frosty.
R.C.


--------------------
"..all those molecules thrashing their kinky little tails, hot for destiny and the street."  Gibson


Nuke baby seals for Jesus!

(This has been a +1 production.)


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OfflineRandolph_Carter
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Re: Possible legal challenge of psylocybe laws? [Re: Xochitl]
    #2133705 - 11/25/03 12:07 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks for the idea...but medical marijuana also had the basis of medical benefits to get it scooted down the scheduling ladder. I'm unaware of any type of marijuana that can be documented to be on the North American continent that was a native species tho..hence, i dont believe that this arguement would work, because of the importation of seeds, and possible harm caused therein.
Stay frosty.
R.C.


--------------------
"..all those molecules thrashing their kinky little tails, hot for destiny and the street."  Gibson


Nuke baby seals for Jesus!

(This has been a +1 production.)


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OfflineSaribo
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Registered: 07/17/03
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Re: Possible legal challenge of psylocybe laws? [Re: Randolph_Carter]
    #2133742 - 11/25/03 12:26 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Uhh... "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" is found in the Declaration of Independence if I remember my HS govt. class right. While the DOI is a nice document, it doesn't have any legal bearing if I remember right. So you can't go to court on those grounds. Right or wrong constitutionally, the legal precdent has been set for over 70 years. I doubt you'd have a real legal case just because you could show you didn't harm anyone. The Harm Principle is not what our govt. is operating under with regards to drugs, unfortunately.


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OfflineRandolph_Carter
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Re: Possible legal challenge of psylocybe laws? [Re: Saribo]
    #2133776 - 11/25/03 12:48 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I do understand that the declaration of independance is NOT a legal document, but it is the ideals behind the Revolution which was fought to establish this somewhat neurotic government. And i think the harm principle is relevant, seeing as items are scheduled due to their potential for abuse. Abuse is, at least in my mind, equated directly with harm of some form. Just an idea y'all...lets find a way to refine it and make it work.
Stay Frosty.
R.C.


--------------------
"..all those molecules thrashing their kinky little tails, hot for destiny and the street."  Gibson


Nuke baby seals for Jesus!

(This has been a +1 production.)


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OfflineChiefThunderbong
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Re: Possible legal challenge of psylocybe laws? [Re: Randolph_Carter]
    #2133830 - 11/25/03 01:24 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)


Quote:

And i think the harm principle is relevant, seeing as items are scheduled due to their potential for abuse. Abuse is, at least in my mind, equated directly with harm of some form.




Your making the mistake of thinking like a rational, intelligent, educated person. Harm and potential for abuse are completely IRRELAVENT towards scheduling. Lets take a look at the best example, Marijuana. Marijuana is proven to be pretty much completely harmless, it has proven medicinal value, but it is in schedule I right next to heroin and PCP. While alcohol, which kills more people each year than all other drugs combined (don't quote me on that, I'm pretty sure I've heard before though.....regardless it kills a fuckload) is availible on every street corner. Not even cocaine is schedule I, marijuana is higher in the schedule than crack.....the government pays no fucking attention to reality, they do as they please.

Quote:

Just an idea y'all...lets find a way to refine it and make it work.




Like I said man, I completely agree with what your saying. Unfortunatly we have two options to make it work, we can:
A - Lead a rebellion and overthrow the oppresive regime in power.
or
B - Move to a different country.

It dosn't matter how right you are, our government hates drugs. Too many people's jobs depend on the war on drugs. Too much money is being made on BOTH sides of the law, same goes for power. This war will never end, so consider yourself a soldier and start fighting.


--------------------
Yeah spinnin' around again
yea caught in a tailspin


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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: Possible legal challenge of psylocybe laws? [Re: Randolph_Carter]
    #2134958 - 11/25/03 02:35 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I have yet to see any commonlaw precedent for a government to take steps to prevent us from harming ourselves.





seat belt laws, helmet laws, etc.


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No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: Possible legal challenge of psylocybe laws? [Re: Randolph_Carter]
    #2135502 - 11/25/03 06:58 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Also, after some extensive conversations as to why certain substances (namely marijuana) are illegal with a few officers who belonged to narc/undercover squads, i've gotten a fairly good answer: These chemicals are illegal due to the fact that someone may have been harmed in the smuggling/production of these substances/chemicals.





If those people had two brain cells in their head they would realize how stupid and illogical that statement is.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Possible legal challenge of psylocybe laws? [Re: monoamine]
    #2135558 - 11/25/03 07:23 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Sadly, many don't even have one.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleTrueBrode
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Re: Possible legal challenge of psylocybe laws? [Re: Randolph_Carter]
    #2138005 - 11/26/03 03:31 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

You are not going to win this.

A) As mentioned before, the life liberty and pursuit of happiness statement is mentioned in the declaration of Independence, thus it has no bearing on any court argument. Nor does the constitution have anything to do with this, as the constitution has absolutely nothing to do with current statutory law codes, so that should not be drawn upon either in substantiating your argument.

B) You are a sub-corporation of the United States; you abide by a contract imposed upon you when you are born. This means that you are not a sovereign man, meaning you concede to the rules of the contract of the United States of America Corporation. There was a recent case in regards to marijuana, the name escapes now, but the man tried to win his case against the government by claming he was a sovereign man that had inalienable rights. So why did he fail to win? Because the judges knew that when you are a citizen of this country, you are no longer a sovereign person. Had the man withdrawn his U.S. citizenship, he may have beaten the charges.

This facet of American Government overwrites your argument that picking a mushroom for personal usage is a “right.” You have no right that the NEW sovereign (the United Sates Corporation) has not agreed upon, thus your rights fall into the hands of the easily swayed populous which elects politicians to make the laws for them. I suggest you read John Jacque Rousseau’s The Social Contract and John Stuart Mill’s On Representative Government, to better comprehend the principles of representative government and the sovereign. Then look into what the statutory court actually entails (why it was set up, how it differs from common court etc.), as well as its relationship to the American Bar Association and the Federal Reserve. It is an odd (and rather suspicious) relationship that many people do not know about, and thus do not understand why they cannot smoke a joint and claim it is a right.

C) Now to your actual argument that you could document finding a mushroom, and keeping it with the sole intention of personal usage.

Well if that were the case, you probably would not encounter police. If you keep your drug usage personal, at home and responsible, chances are you are not going to encounter the police unless you are black, under suspicion or you get a nosey pig on you hands.

Nevertheless, the government agents/police that you are getting your information from are telling you a flat out lie/fairy tale that they feed the masses. Gang drug wars have always started DUE TO the illegal status of the contraband in question. Just look at the prohibition era and the violence that was spurred on between rival booze smuggling gangs- this violence was so great that it was one of the major factors in repealing prohibition. Furthermore, besides those lies, the truth is that the drug laws have nothing to do with ending gang violence; if that were the case then LSD and psilocybins would be legal seeing as they have never really been a “gang commodity”. The laws clearly state that the possession of these substances IS illegal, so if you find a mushroom; you are supposed to destroy it, leave it, or turn it into the police since it is considered illegal contraband. The fact that you could even recognize a psilocybin mushroom will hurt your case in court because it will suggest that you in fact have a knowledge of illegal psychedelic mushrooms- so you just did not stumble upon this mushroom blindly, you intended to seek it out and use it (illegally) to intoxicate yourself, or sell/distribute the mushroom.

As the above posters said, the laws clearly state that possession is illegal.

The possession laws are tricky, and quite ridiculous because they predetermine intent, but as I said before, when you live under the rule of a corporation you are bound to whatever laws are written into your contract.

Therefore, in the end, you have no case. You have an illegal mushroom that you kept. You may get off once with a small fine, or possibly the charges dropped if you can convince the court (which may be fairly easy) that you picked the one single mushroom, and did not know it was a hallucinogen, but that will only work once. In that case, documentation is superfluous anyway.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Possible legal challenge of psylocybe laws? [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2138390 - 11/26/03 06:08 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Maybe you should try to sue the govt for false and misleading advertising and/or constructive fraud instead.


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Possible legal challenge of psylocybe laws? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2138452 - 11/26/03 06:53 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

If marijuana were a person, it could sue the government for slander and defamation of character, and would probably win.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Possible legal challenge of psylocybe laws? [Re: Randolph_Carter]
    #2139175 - 11/27/03 01:35 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Im going to try to turn the question on its head...

Does the fact that there are illegal mushrooms growing on every farm in the US give the junta a valid case against the farmers? If so, then could this interpretation be used to seize privately owned farms and hand them over to the likes of Cargill, ADM, and McShit? If not, then there is a circumstance where it is legal to have the mushrooms growing on your property.

And remember, just because they havent done it yet doesnt mean they cant. The question is whether technically they could.


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Possible legal challenge of psylocybe laws? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2139187 - 11/27/03 01:40 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

In Florida you can't get busted untill you pick em.


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Be all and you'll be to end all


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