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Offlineamonday01
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Experienced help please!
    #21330121 - 02/25/15 07:51 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Okay so in the recipe for bulk substrate theres equal parts coir and horse manure, 1 quart gypsum, 1 quart spent coffee grinds, 1 quart vermiculite.  it was all into a pillow case and boiled at 170 degrees for two hours making sure it did not go over 170.


my question is.... would one still need to put this substrate into the over for an additional time period to make sure there are no contams?

If so how long. please advise



THANKS!

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Offlinemushpunx
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Re: Experienced help please! [Re: amonday01]
    #21330207 - 02/25/15 08:05 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Ive never used a pillow case, I pasturize in quart mason jars. I think an hour between 140 and 170 is good.

If its in a pillow case, are you going to have to squeeze out all the excess water when it cools to keep it at feild capacity yea?


Pasturuzation leaves some good bacteria alive to do its thing, vs sterilization which leaves some substrates vulnerable. I know if you let the temp go up too high it will partially sterilize, I dont know about longer past. times.

Someone else should chime in on that. I do think an hour is fine though.

Edited by mushpunx (02/25/15 08:08 PM)

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Re: Experienced help please! [Re: mushpunx]
    #21331358 - 02/26/15 02:23 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

no... just maintain 140 to 170 (preferably closer to 140) for 60 minutes... I also prefer jars but if you do use a pillow case push a meat thermometer into the middle to ensure the internal temp is in the required range. i've used pillow cases, large socks and crown royal bags...jars are the best way i've done...mess free and all that :stoned:


whatever you choose to do, the internal temperature of your sub (along with the duration it is kept at this temp and proper field capacity) is your only real concern during pasteurization...

other than that, the only thing you need to ask yourself is if you want a big pot of shit water to deal with :shrug:


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OfflineLumpyNutz
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Re: Experienced help please! [Re: sooperdooper]
    #21331436 - 02/26/15 03:56 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

hmm, how long did you boil?
as long as you had it @ 170~ for an hour or so it should be good.:thumbup:


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InvisibleOeric McKenna
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Re: Experienced help please! [Re: LumpyNutz]
    #21331448 - 02/26/15 04:08 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Boiling means over 212F.
Just watch your moisture content. Sopping is too wet (for instance)


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OfflinehamloafM
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Re: Experienced help please! [Re: amonday01]
    #21331492 - 02/26/15 04:47 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

amonday01 said:
Okay so in the recipe for bulk substrate theres equal parts coir and horse manure, 1 quart gypsum, 1 quart spent coffee grinds, 1 quart vermiculite.  it was all into a pillow case and boiled at 170 degrees for two hours making sure it did not go over 170.


my question is.... would one still need to put this substrate into the over for an additional time period to make sure there are no contams?

If so how long. please advise

17
THANKS!



No.  In fact, over-pasteurization is counter-productive in the fact that over exposure to pasteurization temps begins killing off the beneficial microbes, and is part of the reason why I opt to use the lower end of acceptable pasteurization temperature range (135-150).

The pillow case method of pasteurization is acceptable.  The pillow case method leeches all the nutrients from the materials though.  It's better to use jars or spawn bags as the substrate material vessels for pasteurization using water as the heat transferring medium.


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Offliner00tuuu123
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Re: Experienced help please! [Re: amonday01]
    #21331500 - 02/26/15 04:57 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

amonday01 said:
Okay so in the recipe for bulk substrate theres equal parts coir and horse manure, 1 quart gypsum, 1 quart spent coffee grinds, 1 quart vermiculite.  it was all into a pillow case and boiled at 170 degrees for two hours making sure it did not go over 170.


my question is.... would one still need to put this substrate into the over for an additional time period to make sure there are no contams?

If so how long. please advise



THANKS!



As far as contams that's not the purpose to pastuerize you basically are controlling them fo long enough to let the good stuff thrive. But for that ammount of substrate you might wanna look up an oven TEK. Assuming The ammounts of additives at a quart each, Gypsum,Coffee Grounds and Verm. You're looking at a substantial ammount of materials. I'd guestimate it at over 20 qts of total substrate. That is at least 5 galons, so picture cooking a total of 2 large turkeys to 160 degrees and keeping it there for an hour so you'd probably be looking at at least (2) 4 hour runs.


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Edited by r00tuuu123 (02/26/15 05:09 AM)

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OfflinehamloafM
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Re: Experienced help please! [Re: r00tuuu123]
    #21331555 - 02/26/15 05:54 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

I think you are thinking of sterilization, old hand.  The purpose of pasteurization is to create a slate for the mushroom culture to run upon/through that utilizes beneficial microbes to aid in the colonization of the bulk substrate. 

The process of pasteurization creates a temperature threshold in where micro-besties are destroyed, or knocked back to the point that they will be consumed by the mushroom mycelium before they can recover.  While at the same time keeping the beneficial microbes alive to pray upon remaining, and invading contaminates.  Beneficial/predator microbes can survive in higher (160-180F) temps than micro-beasties.  Micro-beasties begin being killed off, and, or knocked back at 120F.


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: Experienced help please! [Re: hamloaf]
    #21331719 - 02/26/15 07:27 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

I agree with loaf. Thermal death for most molds is 130 f sustained for 30 min. 90 min at 140-160 is overkill IMO. I usually start my timer at 135 and let it run for 80 min at most. A full 90 min actually has caused me more problems. While 170 is an acceptable upper threshold,  I would not hold that temp for more than 60 min. 2 hours is too long and if it was my sub I would let it dry out outside and start over.

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Offlinebw86
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Re: Experienced help please! [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #21331737 - 02/26/15 07:35 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

i have used the OPs method for years, load a pillowcase submerge @150 for an hour.
I have recently been thinking about changing my method because its so messy.

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InvisibleOeric McKenna
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Re: Experienced help please! [Re: hamloaf]
    #21331768 - 02/26/15 07:46 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

My favorite new way to pasteurize is not with jars or a pillowcase. LARGE METAL STOCKPOT WITH LID! Just bringing it slightly past field capacity with somewhere in the vicinity of 160 degree water and setting the pan near my woodstove haha.
Can't go wrong with a long needle style meat/fryer thermometer I say.
Its kind of like the "bucket tek" except with lower temp, and temp control.
Any nutrient loss from squeezing out excess water isn't a big deal. The spawn rips through it and produces.  I've been saying this for quite a while and its not common but a tiny pinch of lime in your water goes a long way if you have mold issues from your environment or from cheap shitty pet smart coir. I recommend the big hydrofarm coir bricks.

The reasons I prefer this to jars lately:

~Better moisture control as you're loading your tub in the final stage removing excess moisture instead of estimating beforehand.
~more even temperature as you're not getting variance between the outside/inside portions of jarred matter.
~not washing a bunch of jars (twice!)
~not loading/unloading jars

Oh , and this dude is using horse manure. You can't leach the nutrients from horse manure in one pass. In fact you might remove undesirables.


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Offlinebw86
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Re: Experienced help please! [Re: Oeric McKenna]
    #21331778 - 02/26/15 07:48 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Oeric McKenna  please explain you just put your sub in water?
then how do you drain it? on a screen?

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InvisibleOeric McKenna
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Re: Experienced help please! [Re: bw86]
    #21331785 - 02/26/15 07:50 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

You put gloves on, grab a double handful pressed singly together at a time and squeeze.
Its easy and gets you the perfect moisture content. I love the control, speed, and ease


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Offlinebw86
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Re: Experienced help please! [Re: Oeric McKenna]
    #21331790 - 02/26/15 07:52 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

So you pour it out of the pot of water into a colander? then squeeze?
that sounds even messier then a pillow case.

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InvisibleOeric McKenna
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Re: Experienced help please! [Re: bw86]
    #21331806 - 02/26/15 07:58 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

No. Its not overly soupy man. Its just coir & verm in my case. Manure could be worse. Manure also contams easier when confined and I find the yield no greater...
Either way, no colander.

Set your tub on the floor. Set the pan of substrate by the tub.
Grab double handfuls and squeeze. Place that shit in the tub. Your tub should only be between 10 or 15 handfulls of substrate making this part only about 2 minutes! Trust me, if the idea was bullshit I wouldn't be saying...hey, this is a better way. I used to advocate jars but came to dread the handling.
I could have a tub of substrate wrung by hand faster than someone could wash their jars guaranteed. It's also easier.


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Re: Experienced help please! [Re: amonday01]
    #21331873 - 02/26/15 08:15 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

amonday01 said:
Okay so in the recipe for bulk substrate theres equal parts coir and horse manure, 1 quart gypsum, 1 quart spent coffee grinds, 1 quart vermiculite.  it was all into a pillow case and boiled at 170 degrees for two hours making sure it did not go over 170.


my question is.... would one still need to put this substrate into the over for an additional time period to make sure there are no contams?

If so how long. please advise



THANKS!




Some of this has already been said, but I'll mention it again for good measure.

You don't need to put it in the oven too. You've already pasteurized it.

You need to make sure the core temperature is getting to temperature for an hour. Peoples opinions on temperature vary, but I know of nobady who will say 140-160 is a unsafe range.

In some ways, jars are easier because you can get everything to field capacity first and not have to mess with all the squeezing.

Frank's hpoo substrate, revisited
Frank's Proper Pasteurization Tek 3.0


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OfflinehamloafM
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Re: Experienced help please! [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #21331882 - 02/26/15 08:19 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
I agree with loaf. Thermal death for most molds is 130 f sustained for 30 min. 90 min at 140-160 is overkill IMO. I usually start my timer at 135 and let it run for 80 min at most. A full 90 min actually has caused me more problems. While 170 is an acceptable upper threshold,  I would not hold that temp for more than 60 min. 2 hours is too long and if it was my sub I would let it dry out outside and start over.



I use a 60 minute time limit on pasteurizing materials.  The reason is due to the amount of heat being being transferred into the center of the materials during the pasteurization process . 

Once the internal core reaches 135, and the stove is turned off, the heat from the outer part of the substrate materials is still being transferred into the core of the materials.  That's how (if you've ever noticed) your internal core temp reading will increase the further along into the timimg step of pasteurization process you go.  After you've removed your pasteurization vessel from the water this heat transfer continues for a little while until finally reaching a breaking point at where the materials begin to fall back to ambient room temperature.


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Edited by liquidmyce (02/26/15 08:49 AM)

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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: Experienced help please! [Re: hamloaf]
    #21332151 - 02/26/15 09:47 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Yes that's why its 80min at most for me. Depending on the substrate materials i am using I will change my temps and duration.

I find that when using straw in a substrate I need a slightly longer pasteurization or else I end up with bacterial issues. I am considering pasteurizing different materials seperately based on their individual needs and mixing at spawn time. I would be interested to hear if anyone has already done this.

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OfflinehamloafM
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Re: Experienced help please! [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #21332177 - 02/26/15 09:54 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Yes that's why its 80min at most for me. Depending on the substrate materials i am using I will change my temps and duration.

I find that when using straw in a substrate I need a slightly longer pasteurization or else I end up with bacterial issues. I am considering pasteurizing different materials seperately based on their individual needs and mixing at spawn time. I would be interested to hear if anyone has already done this.



that's what i used to do years ago.  straw/coir/horse manure subsrtates were generated by the consolidating of pasteurizing each separate material to said material's own personal specks. 

Not much difference in the way of harvest was detected using this formula.  A lot of prep work though.  imo, horse manure is king of cubesis substrate materials.


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Re: Experienced help please! [Re: hamloaf]
    #21332404 - 02/26/15 10:39 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

While we're on the subject, so you're saying that while 170 is at the upper end of the acceptable temp limit, anything longer than 60 mins counter productive, once internal temperature has been achieved?

I've been using the "turkey pan" tek (spitballs or eats, I don't recall), but going for 2 1/2 hours @170 (30mins to bring the sub up to temp, and 120min to pasteurize. Can I safely shave an hour off that time?


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