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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: havatampa]
    #2125274 - 11/20/03 02:08 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


Having a little bit of socialism is like being a little pregnant...


Hehe...funny point. But, I believe it is possible and necessary
to be ready to compromise in this world.

If pure capitalism with no controls was allowed to exist, our
environment would be destroyed and wealth would polarize
quickly.

As I already said, I believe in a mainly free-market economy with
controls on destructive behavior(environmental damage, monopolies,
etc...). And I believe in very limited income redistribution
by the government(for schools and care for the mentally retarded).


Are you implying that once you introduce any level of socialism it
will ultimately evolve and give birth to communism? I would like to
see examples to back that up.

When you say "communism", I do not know what you mean. Theoretical
communism declares that the present government must be overthrown
and replaced by an economic dictatorship which will eventually melt
away. In the end people will live happily ever after in communal
bliss.

Or are you referring to a society starting out as free-market
oriented and turning into a heavily socialist state(high taxes and
ample programs to benefit the general population). This has been
happening in most "Western" countries at a steady pace for many
decades and it just keeps getting worse. Our taxes go up as
the government tries to solve more and more problems. I shudder
to think of what America will be like in twenty years.

Unfortunately, it seems to be a trend throughout history that
free-market economies devolve into socialist states. For example,
the Roman government fed a large portion of the population with grain
handouts.


OK, money is not infinite, niether are resources. (Resources are
renewable, but only if the rate of renewal is not exceeded by the
rate of consumption).

Some resources are rare and hard to find(gold). Other
resources are quite prevalent in this world(dirt to grow food).
If we use a resource at a faster rate than it can be
replaced, we will eventually run out of the resource in question.

Are you trying to show that wealth is based upon resources and
because resources are limited, wealth is limited? This is true.
But some of our resources are absolutely massive in scope. For
example, the amount of dirt on this earth that can be used to grow
food, the amount of water on this earth, and the amount of coal on
this earth.

Are there enough resources on this world to provide all 6 billion
people with nice houses, ample food, education, health care, and tons
of fancy stuff? No, not even close.


However, when the wealthy band together and seek ways to control as
much of the available resources and wealth as possible, I have a
problem with that.


I don't like the concept of excessive polarization of wealth either.
That is why I believe in anti-monopoly laws.


I'm not suggesting that those who accumulate wealth should have it
unfairly taken away from them, just to give it to someone who's poor
and lazy. I'm suggesting that those who benifit the most from the
system our state safegaurds have the largest obligation to help
maintain our state.

Agreed. I believe that people who make more money should be taxed
a larger percentage of their income.

But, I think that the American government spends way too much money.
We should decrease spending so that both the poor and the rich
get to keep more of their hard-earned money. And when there is a
tax rebate, I believe that the rich(who paid in more than the poor
did) should get more back.


True, America's poor are much better off than the poor in other
nations. But then again, the poor in some nations are much better off
than the poor in America.

Only because those countries practise higher levels of socialism
than America does. They tax the hell out of their affluent
citizens and give it to the poor. There comes a point when
income redistribution becomes too excessive and harmful.

As I said, some income redistribution is ok in my opinion, such as
offering schooling to all children (regardless of income).

I prefer to live in an economy where I am free to make my own way
and to rely upon myself. I enjoy having economic freedom(or whatever
economic freedom I have left in this country). I don't want
handouts. I will support myself.


The fact is, the disparity between the poor and the rich continues to grow.

Disparity doesn't bother me. I am more concerned with the mass of
people having access to the things they need to survive. In
America we have these things(food, shelter, and stuff). At the
same time I am concerned with the mass of people being able to
freely engage in whatever economic activity that they want to engage
in, without having all of their profit taxed away.






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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: muhurgle]
    #2125281 - 11/20/03 02:12 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


However, the big problem with this is that money equals political
power.


A very unfortunate truism. Money can be used to directly or
indirectly influence the democratic process, therefore subverting
democracy. In my opinion we need stricter rules governing
these areas.


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OfflineMushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,847
Last seen: 20 days, 21 hours
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2127076 - 11/21/03 10:30 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

"just getting by" is quite subjective. To a poor person, just getting by could be making this months payment on their old truck. To a rich person, it could be buying a new helicopter for their yacht. Neither are really necessary for life, who is to say which one is "just getting by" and which one isn't?"

Considering that to really hold any job, you NEED TRANSPORTATION, but I don't know of any job that'd require a helicopter to transport you around on and off of your PLEASURE CRAFT
I'd say the truck is pretty necessary, and the heli is not.

"Their is a minimum wage that is designed to be enough to pay bills and buy food."

except you can't do either on minimum wage, unless you work 80 hours a week, which you can't do, no one'll let you get that much overtime..

"And when there is a
tax rebate, I believe that the rich(who paid in more than the poor
did) should get more back."

Correct, going on strict numbers, but percentage-wise? Rebate 50% of the poor's, for example.. they could use a steak dinner for once.. the rich can live just the same whether they got a 10% or 90% rebate.
But that 10% is still probably more money than the poor man's 50%.



--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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Offlinehavatampa
South CoastPsychedelia

Registered: 10/07/03
Posts: 206
Loc: at Home with the Kids
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2127126 - 11/21/03 10:52 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I don't mean to imply that I believe the transition from socialism to communism is a feasible hypothesis, I was just wondering what the end result would be, in his/her opinion, using that analogy.

: )


--------------------
There he goes, one of God's own prototypes--some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too wierd to live, too rare to die.


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Offlinehavatampa
South CoastPsychedelia

Registered: 10/07/03
Posts: 206
Loc: at Home with the Kids
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: havatampa]
    #2127134 - 11/21/03 10:54 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

"Name a few nations..."

Holland
Belgium
Germany
Luxembourg
Finland
Norway
Denmark
Switzerland
Australia
Canada
New Zealand
Japan


--------------------
There he goes, one of God's own prototypes--some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too wierd to live, too rare to die.


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Invisibleshroomophile
ShroomitusFidelis
Male User Gallery

Registered: 08/20/02
Posts: 762
Loc: USA
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2128391 - 11/21/03 09:25 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

They get to pay 10 percent tax and i get to pay 50.It's not hatred,it's envy.After alll i could hit the lottery and join the ten percenters.


--------------------
Once the mighty oak,was a nut who held his ground.


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Offlinehavatampa
South CoastPsychedelia

Registered: 10/07/03
Posts: 206
Loc: at Home with the Kids
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
Re: Class Warfare: Hatred of the wealthy [Re: shroomophile]
    #2132745 - 11/24/03 02:51 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Good Luck.


--------------------
There he goes, one of God's own prototypes--some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too wierd to live, too rare to die.


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