Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Mushroom-Hut Mono Tub Substrate   North Spore Bulk Substrate   PhytoExtractum Kratom Powder for Sale   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
Offlinepluteus
level-9 deviant

Registered: 08/12/03
Posts: 170
Loc: London area, UK
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics
    #2132208 - 11/24/03 10:33 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

An express hunt yesterday afternoon revealed that P. cyanescens have started popping up at my usual haunts (but interestingly in new locations within these haunts) - after a very late start.  Perhaps there've already been other 'wild' fruitings elsewhere in the UK?  Anyone?  The flushes so far are very small compared with previous years, but there are thousands of primordia forming - so hopefully the season isn't a write-off yet  :smile:


some clusters of cyan before cleaning


anyone for shroom salad? the 120 or so I've cleaned so far...

There are a few other species of mushrooms that seem to grow prolifically wherever I also find P. cyanescens, and serve as good 'indicator' species that P. cyanescens might be in the vicinity

The best indicator, in my opinion, is Stropharia aurantiaca, which is as strikingly red as the Stropharia aeruginosa/cyanea/pseudocyanea/caerulea etc. group is strikingly blue-green, and can thus be spotted from miles away.  It is more common than Psilocybe cyanescens in the UK, but is reportedly a recently invaded alien species orginating from australasia (so it is not in many field guides).


Stropharia aurantiaca

Another good indicator species is Macrocystidia cucumis.  This looks like a rather uninteresting LBM apart from the yellow fringe around the cap margin and the strange texture of the stem.  It gets very interesting indeed under the microscope.  You might think this species would be hard to identify in the field with certainty, but fortunately it has the unique property of smelling strongly of cucumbers when young, and of cucumber + tuna fish sandwiches when older.

I've never found any of these three species outside a woodchip bed habitat, although apparently Macrocystidia cucumis (the only species in this genus) is a rare or at least uncommon British native.

Will continue this little essay in woodchip bed species when I can upload more pics  :laugh:
 

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleG a n j a
Pictish and proud
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 7,860
Loc: Zone ate
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: pluteus]
    #2132234 - 11/24/03 10:46 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Great find, now i need to dig out all my gps numbers
and start checking some of my plots :thumbup:
I'm guessing these were from that place near richmond :tongue: ?


--------------------
er

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblemjshroomer
Sage
Registered: 07/21/99
Posts: 13,774
Loc: gone with my shrooms
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: G a n j a]
    #2132250 - 11/24/03 10:55 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Kudos to Plutreus for his intereting discovery of P. cyans. Great find and cool photos.

mj

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinebcustom
three short ofone-hundred

Registered: 09/21/03
Posts: 59
Loc: Grrreat Pac NW
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2132322 - 11/24/03 11:27 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

That was an awesome post! Needless to say you will enjoy those P. Cyanescens! I especially appreciate the detail given with the indicator species, etc. Thank you, 5 shrooms!


--------------------
Don't you look at me in that tone of voice!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleangryshroom
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 7,264
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: pluteus]
    #2132390 - 11/24/03 11:57 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

The Stropharia aurantiaca, that is just a beautiful mushroom!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBi0TeK
elephant man

Registered: 11/07/02
Posts: 3,002
Loc: Yorkshire Moors, Great Br...
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: pluteus]
    #2132448 - 11/24/03 12:25 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Great finds Pluteus !  :thumbup:

I've yet to find any active wood lovers in the Yorkshire area nor have heard of any reports of them so far unfortunately.

I need to find some Newlands, Kew know what i mean ?  :wink:

Keep up the good work ! 


--------------------
PROMOTE BACTERIA. THEY'RE THE ONLY CULTURE SOME PEOPLE HAVE.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: pluteus]
    #2132719 - 11/24/03 02:38 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblespores
haploid
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/18/99
Posts: 2,486
Loc: Washington
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: ]
    #2132871 - 11/24/03 03:47 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Very nice.  Good to hear they're finally popping up over there :laugh:.

DH

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinepluteus
level-9 deviant

Registered: 08/12/03
Posts: 170
Loc: London area, UK
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: spores]
    #2134687 - 11/25/03 10:50 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

thanks everyone

angryshroom - I agree, the colours are spectacular when young and make this one of my favorite species.  I don't know the chemical identity of the red pigment, but surely it has useful properties...  The colour gets washed out to varying degrees in older specimens.


Stropharia aurantiaca - older specimens on woody debris

Macrocystidia cucumis looks like this:


Ganja and Bi0TeK -  :wink:  :thumbup:
   

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleG a n j a
Pictish and proud
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 7,860
Loc: Zone ate
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: pluteus]
    #2134770 - 11/25/03 11:21 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

I didn't think Stropharia's had such vivid colours :grin:
But this year I've seen a few bright coloured Stropharia's
 


--------------------
er

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSilverwolf
sandtrout
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/06/03
Posts: 1,108
Loc: Darkover
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: G a n j a]
    #2138432 - 11/26/03 04:36 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Are these true European strain Plute?
I note no evident blueing on the a cap margin whilst fresh.What about storage,I've read elsewhere on this site that their potency is dramatically reduced when dried?If you check my thread you'll find I'm still banging on about the "alder" question.It's really a softwood v hardwood debate (one of my library books gives pc as a SOFTWOOD-chip growing species).


--------------------
"Odrade read the word silently and then aloud.
"Arafel."
She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources.
"Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBi0TeK
elephant man

Registered: 11/07/02
Posts: 3,002
Loc: Yorkshire Moors, Great Br...
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: Silverwolf]
    #2138597 - 11/26/03 06:11 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Lonewolf said:
Are these true European strain Plute?




As far as I'm aware P. cyanescens was an invader brought over from the Pacific northwest coast of the USA in wood chip mulch used for flowerbeds in the London area.


--------------------
PROMOTE BACTERIA. THEY'RE THE ONLY CULTURE SOME PEOPLE HAVE.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSilverwolf
sandtrout
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/06/03
Posts: 1,108
Loc: Darkover
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: Bi0TeK]
    #2138615 - 11/26/03 06:24 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Plute's not gonna like that I'm afraid and both my Dorling Kindersley AND Larousse field guides give p.cyanascens as an indigenous British species.


--------------------
"Odrade read the word silently and then aloud.
"Arafel."
She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources.
"Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMrSash
Stranger

Registered: 11/26/03
Posts: 4
Last seen: 20 years, 3 months
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: Silverwolf]
    #2138630 - 11/26/03 06:37 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

easy guys, im also from london...
today i was like... woah.. i saw a fuck load of clusters when i was walkin down the road behind my own, and later on i met up with afriend and we decided to pick a few to see if we could ident them blabla... im taking a spore print as we speak and im gona check it when i get up tommorow mornin, im hopin they are libs, and if they are, im going to have a lot :smile:

where abouts in london are you from Pluteus?

Mr Sash

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBi0TeK
elephant man

Registered: 11/07/02
Posts: 3,002
Loc: Yorkshire Moors, Great Br...
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: Silverwolf]
    #2138653 - 11/26/03 06:54 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Lonewolf said:
both my Dorling Kindersley AND Larousse field guides give p.cyanascens as an indigenous British species. 




I hear it was first discovered in the London area in 1946 so I guess you could say it's now classed as indigenous.

Welcome to the shroomery MrSash  :smile:


--------------------
PROMOTE BACTERIA. THEY'RE THE ONLY CULTURE SOME PEOPLE HAVE.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblemjshroomer
Sage
Registered: 07/21/99
Posts: 13,774
Loc: gone with my shrooms
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: Bi0TeK]
    #2138751 - 11/26/03 07:58 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

P. cyanescens was originally discovered and named from Kew Gardens in Surrey waty before Woodchips were being used in gardens ib America. It grows throughout most Erupoean countries and als o in China as well as Russia and many Baltic stases. They are also very prolific throughout most of Germany. Gartz has sited in the literature over three locations in Germany alone.

They are also in Amsterdam , France and Italy and other European countries.



It is also very common in wood hips at the Royal Botanic gardens in Edinburgh.

They did not come from woodchips from America to England.

mj

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblemjshroomer
Sage
Registered: 07/21/99
Posts: 13,774
Loc: gone with my shrooms
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: pluteus]
    #2138812 - 11/26/03 08:26 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Here are a few photos of the Strophria mentioned above and some info on it from a British Mycological journal.
he Fotos are mine.









http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...part=1&vc=1



The top 7 photos of the red mushrooms in the above URL are Stropharia aurantiaca (Cooke) Imai. found in the Journal of Fac. Agr. Hohhaido Imp. Univ. vol. 43:267 (1938).

This info is from the 1988 November Mycologist vol. 12: part four.

It describes its habitat as

Quote:

"occurring on decaying, woody debris.

Reports that its distribution is uncommon. SInce this is an English Journal it was written referring o the distribution of the species in the UK.

Here is the Dist Info from the Mycologist:

Uncommon, but increasing in UK. N. Europe, Australia, Japan, UK (Clwyd, Devon, Hants, Herts, Middx, Surr., Warwicks), Jersey on flower beds mulched with shreaded wood.

Other Remarks:
Differs from all other Stropharia species (with chrysocystidia) by the striking red colors. Apparently on the increase in UK, through the use of woodchips for mulching. Sometimes flowerbeds can be totally covered with basuidiomes.





Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSilverwolf
sandtrout
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/06/03
Posts: 1,108
Loc: Darkover
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2140946 - 11/27/03 08:02 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Perhaps one of the only ways we will find out if p.cyanascens has a tradition of "shamanic" useage here in Britain will be to examine the records on the stomach contents of the "druidic" (Bronze to Iron Age priestly cast) "bog" mummies who were fed hallucinogenic brews before they were sacrificeid,which usually meant strangulation I believe.The history of more peaceable useage may be far harder to ascertain.


--------------------
"Odrade read the word silently and then aloud.
"Arafel."
She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources.
"Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinecanid
irregular meat sprocket
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/26/02
Posts: 11,912
Loc: looking for zeebras, n. c...
Last seen: 2 months, 8 days
Trusted Identifier
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: Silverwolf]
    #2141420 - 11/27/03 11:44 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

ok, you get a pump and i'll get my pasport and burgeling kit. we'll do it outselves...
:wink:


--------------------



Attn PWN hunters: If you should come across a bluing Psilocybe matching P. pellicolusa please smell it.
If you detect a scent reminiscent of Anethole (anise) please preserve a specimen or two for study and please PM me.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinepluteus
level-9 deviant

Registered: 08/12/03
Posts: 170
Loc: London area, UK
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: canid]
    #2141727 - 11/28/03 07:09 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

hehe, from woodchip beds to to bog mummy stomach excavation...

thanks for the Stropharia info MJ.  I'd forgotten about that article.  The 'Mycologist' has in the past few years been split into the excellent 'Field Mycology' and the equally excellent but now more academic 'Mycologist'

MrSash welcome, hope your shrooms turn out to be active.  I'm from just west of London.

There's been lots of debate here about the origin and range expansion patterns of P. cyanscens populations worldwide... e.g. 'British Indigenous' thread.  My main points on this issue have been:

1. Just because a species is first described from a certain location does not mean it is endemic to that location.  Kew Gardens is well known for the high diversity of 'alien' (i.e., not native) mushroom species which have fruited and been described from its grounds, ever since the 1800s.  This is because it is a major nexus of plant importation and re-distribution.

2. Similarly, just because P. cyanescens shows a certain distribution across many countries today, we cannot directly infer what distribution it had in the past.

3.  We should wait for genetic analysis of a large number of representative specimens of P. cyanescens before drawing any firm conclusions about its original home range(s) and patterns of invasion.  This species did not simply spring into existence with the advent of woodchip mulch use.  Populations residing on natural substrates must have existed before the 20th century wave of invasion.  Genetic evidence will reveal the localities of ancestral populations and help characterize subsequent invasion events.

4. Who cares, just munch on the little blighters and be done with it :laugh: 

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinepluteus
level-9 deviant

Registered: 08/12/03
Posts: 170
Loc: London area, UK
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: pluteus]
    #2141732 - 11/28/03 07:15 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

p.s. Lonewolf - there was plenty of blue bruising on cap and stem when fresh, just didnt show up well in the photos. They retain high potency upon drying, remaining strong for 8 months or more. I don't know if anyone's formally bioassayed this particular strain, but it's phenomenally potent. 3 little fresh caps can blow your head off.

I've seen them growing on all kinds of woodchips, will have a look at your thread and post there.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: pluteus]
    #2141889 - 11/28/03 10:02 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSilverwolf
sandtrout
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/06/03
Posts: 1,108
Loc: Darkover
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: pluteus]
    #2142301 - 11/28/03 02:01 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Who cares?REALLY I shudder,and you an Englishman!
But seriously folks when you say "genetic evidence" what do you mean Plute?Can you give us an idea of how it would be garnered?
Also whilst considering the whole "bog mummy" issue another psilocybe species sprang to mind,that of p.crobula "grows on fallen twigs" is all it says in the Larousse.I just fancy that,from what I have heard of this smaller (?) psilocybe species,it may be likely that,if indigenous to these isles,we would find some evidence of it's usage in "druidic" sacrificial brews.


--------------------
"Odrade read the word silently and then aloud.
"Arafel."
She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources.
"Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinepluteus
level-9 deviant

Registered: 08/12/03
Posts: 170
Loc: London area, UK
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: Silverwolf]
    #2142866 - 11/28/03 06:16 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

forgot to mention, I have Stropharia aurantiaca clone cultures if anyone's interested in trying to grow this pretty species

------------------

OK, Lonewolf, first, the bog mummy issue, or BMI

hehehe (as a matter of critical importance to our nation's cultural heritage, the first BMI summit today concluded that our forefathers must be trippin')

I don't think P. crobula is active?  I know a couple of the field guides (e.g. Roger Phillips') say yea but Stamets and the community at large say nay.  I doubt it could be gathered in sufficient quantity to make it a useful sacrement even if it were.  It's really small and pops up on its own.  Here's one I found last month:


Psilocybe crobula (sorry for crap pic) - woody debris in a Norfolk woodland, Nov '03

The genus Psilocybe was recently shown to be an invalid grouping, forcing together at least two major lineages of mushrooms which are of mixed ancestry and hence not each other's closest relatives.  Essentially, one of these lineages has given rise to inactive species while the other has diversified into hallucinogenic species.  P. crobula clearly belongs to the former group in both its phylogenetic and morphological affinities.  (incidentally the type species of Psilocybe - the inactive P. montana - is also in the former group, which means those nasty molecular taxonomists might soon change the genus name of all our beloved psychoactive psilocybes to something most unappealing :frown: )

So anyway, maybe we should mostly look out for liberty caps in these mummy stomachs.  There are also genetic tests for the presence of *any* mushroom of the psychoactive lineage of the genus Psilocybe in a sample (I have an interesting but terribly written recent Korean paper on this), but the DNA cannot be too degraded. 

How degraded would bog mummy stomach mushroom DNA be?  Somewhat?  You tell me.

------------------

OK, now back to (what for the time being is called!) Psilocybe cyanescens

I apologize for the fit of indifference, it's just that this particular debate has been stuck in the same conceptual rut for like, aaages

When I say 'genetic evidence' I am talking about, to be brutally honest, analyzing quickly-evolving homologous DNA sequences between many samples, in order to build up a picture of their relationships, the patterns of divergence in their DNA, and how this pattern varies with geographical distribution.  Among other types of confirming evidence,  the original home ranges would contain much higher levels of genetic variation than relatively recently invaded areas, and also these genotypes would be basal to all other lineages.

This is analagous to the famous studies of modern human origins. Despite huge amounts of trans-continental migration and population interbreeding over long periods of time, analyses still strongly indicate that the Homo sapiens lineage evolved a single time in sub-Saharan Africa, and we can roughly date this event (Ok, there are still some who regard this as contentious, but you get the point - it will be easier to study these issues in the case of P. cyanescens because migration events have presumably been much more recent)

You ask - How would this evidence be garnered?

First, by building up a library of multiple samples of Psilocybe cyanescens from as many different places as possible.  This is key.  It seems the Shroomery community could achieve something like this for many Psilocybe species, which would be a wonderful thing.

Then, by extracting, amplifying, and sequencing an appropriate gene region, homologous across all samples.

Then, by using phylogenetic reconstruction and statistical techniques to address the issues of relationship, divergence, and diversity that I wrote about above.

I might post more about these techniques and what they have to say so far about psilocybe diversification in general (and what the future holds), but now I really must chill 

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: pluteus]
    #2143905 - 11/29/03 07:50 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblemjshroomer
Sage
Registered: 07/21/99
Posts: 13,774
Loc: gone with my shrooms
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: ]
    #2143939 - 11/29/03 08:30 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Pluteus, that kind of study which you suggest should be something you should do at school because it will only be an individual study which might never occur. Someone in a classroom studying DNA sequewnces would want to be interested in studying all of the various P. cyanescens from all over the world. Only difference would be in the potencies and substrates.

But if you are not a strudent who has this particular project as his goal or for his thesis, such a study will never be conducted by anyone.
Velgadys DNA study changed names of the Mexican Psilocybes to psychedelia. Which is a stupid name.
he has caused disent amongst many mycologists over this suggestive name change for the mexican psilocybes which contained psilocine/psilocyine. I personally also do not agree with this proppsal he suggested.

Edited by mjshroomer (11/29/03 02:13 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinepluteus
level-9 deviant

Registered: 08/12/03
Posts: 170
Loc: London area, UK
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2144304 - 11/29/03 12:34 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

MJ - but what if someone was already conducting molecular research into mushrooms, not using psilocybes but some other set of mushroom species as their study group?  Then, if they had a passionate interest in understanding the metapopulation and evolutionary genetics of P. cyanescens, it would be a simple case of them including P. cyanescens specimens in amongst the many hundreds of routine DNA sequencing batches they'd be running anyway, and spending a few weekends sorting this data out.  Mating experiments etc. can be done at home.

---------------------

Mr Mushrooms & MJ - notice I said "nasty molecular taxonomists" - so I think we share the same general stance about the naming of mushroom species here.  I think that Vilgalys so far has only got round to informally designating the psychoactive clade 'Psychedelia' and has not published a formal taxonomic revision.  If he does, everyone can ignore him like most are ignoring his splitting of Coprinus into four genera, or someone could propose a formal nomen conservandum or whatever.

But, Mr Mushrooms, "phuck phylogeny" entirely???

I'd really like to convince you that phylogenetic techniques have uses above and beyond the rather bland business of pure classification. Leaving these annoying nomenclatural issues aside, we find that phylogenies allow us to address all kinds of evolutionary questions that we'd be simply unable to tackle if only morphological evidence was considered.

Do you not find it interesting that the mushroom species long since grouped under one genus name, Psilocybe, are strongly indicated - by multiple unlinked gene regions not involved with psilocybin production - to cluster into two independent groups, one psychoactive and one inactive, with many morphological features now reinforcing the separation of these lineages in hindsight?

Then look at the topology of these phylogenies.  Start mapping on microscopic, ecological, geographical, and biochemical characters.  Suddenly we can start to find out about character correlations and correlates of diversification.  How many times have psilocybe lineages invaded wood substrates?  What traits might have promoted higher rates of speciation?  To what extent are levels of psilocybin production strongly contrained or plastic amongst sister species and sister clades?  What micro- and macroscopic features are the most reliable indicators of evolutionary relationship?  What are the most basal psilocybin-producing species and what primitive features do they share with other dark-spored groups that may have evolved psilocybin production?

As more species and more gene regions are sequenced, our confidence in retrieving sound answers to these questions can only improve.

Surely these issues are a lot more interesting than nomenclature, and it is perhaps unfortunate that most phylogenetic work on mushrooms seems only to generate phylogenies for the sake of classification.  So, you may well decide to not use phylogenetic criteria in naming mushroom species, and I would sometimes support you there, depending on each individual case.  But to dispense with phlyogeny as a source of evidence for our enquiries into mushroom evolution would be a great shame.

I can even think of cases where the use of molecular phylogenies for fungal classification has been very useful.  The taxonomy of anamorphic fungi lacking a sexual stage was a mess until recent times, because sexual structures have been the source of almost all grouping characters.  Now that we may determine these fungi's closest sexual relatives using molecular phylogenies, researchers developing treatments for diseases caused by these fungi have a clear advantage - and this type of head start bestowed by phlyogenetic information applies to many groups of organisms.

Mr Mushrooms, you seem to imply that molecular phylogenetic techniques are totally without merit, even in matters unrelated to classification.  I'd be interested to hear your justification of this stance?

My example of modern human origins was a perhaps a poor choice - there are many more clear-cut cases of powerful phylogenetic accuracy. 

Phylogenetic techniques provide powerful tools currently residing at the heart of diverse biological fields, for example in medical virology and bacteriology, and of course in many areas of evolutionary ecology. 

To take one more or less random example, there was a case where the original home locality of an invading beetle pest of south american and african crops was unknown.  Phylogenetic analysis of numerous representative beetle samples clearly revealed that (i) this beetle 'species' actually consisted of two cryptic species and (ii) the basal lineages of both of these cryptic species was represented by specimens from a region of Amazonian forest - subsequent visits to this forest located natural enemies of the beetles (parasitoid wasps) which were then successfully used in treating the pests worldwide.

Then of course there are the numerous 'simulation' studies, where organisms such as viruses have been bred over thousands of generations, and regularly isolated according to different selection pressures.  A 'blind' phylogenetic analysis of viral DNA following these many years of breeding recovered the exact pattern of isolation and strain divergence that had been experimentally imposed.

So, given, as I have said before, that the relatively simple cellular structure of mushrooms serves poorly to record their evolutionary history, and that cases of convergent, parallel, and revergent evolution are rife amonst mushroom lineages, an argument against molecular phylogenies as being our most powerful and reliable tool yet for detecting mushroom relationships should rely on something more concrete than personal disbelief and resentment about name-changing.

If you're really portraying these techniques as being generally without merit, on a logical rather than a personal basis, you have an absolutely vast body of supportive evidence and theoretical framework to overturn.  I've done my darndest to convince you of that here, I hope you appreciate my effort if nothing else  :smile:

(and if you only meant to criticize the sometimes endless and pointless re-naming that goes on in the wake of phylogenetic studies, and not the efficacy of phylogenies themselves, then sorry to have rambled on for ages about this.  And thanks for calling me 'brilliant' :laugh: )





Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblemjshroomer
Sage
Registered: 07/21/99
Posts: 13,774
Loc: gone with my shrooms
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: pluteus]
    #2144601 - 11/29/03 02:23 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

It just disa[peared two times I responded to this with a long tirade. Sorry i do not feel like rewritng a third time. Something ont he left of my keyboard kleeps erasing my text while typing fast. not sure what two keys I hit and then i cannot remember what exactley what it was I said.

mj

Nice post Pluteus

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: pluteus]
    #2144892 - 11/29/03 04:40 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinepluteus
level-9 deviant

Registered: 08/12/03
Posts: 170
Loc: London area, UK
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: ]
    #2145207 - 11/29/03 07:06 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

hehe, that's okay, as you've probably guessed by now, i enjoy rambling on about the glories of phylogenetics at the slightest provocation

so thanks to you both, sorry your post didn't work MJ

big shroom hunt tomorrow morning - wish me luck!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSilverwolf
sandtrout
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/06/03
Posts: 1,108
Loc: Darkover
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: pluteus]
    #2148668 - 12/01/03 05:52 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

How can you classify something by the way in which it evolved anyway?Thinks..no I suppose there are,for want of a better word,"methodologies" of evolution which can be categorised(?).So presumably in order to group types one would look for specific "environmental response mechanisms" that...ah yes.Qu."what is the evolutionary advantage of being a psychoactive plant,and what advantages (if any) does ingesting such a plant bestow on the organism which does so?"Terrance Meckenna talks about increases in visual acuity..
(ed's note:He DOESN'T talk about auditory improvements,HOWEVER it seems to me that McKenna has a "visual bias" anyway ie:he may "see what you mean" without ever listening to a word you say!)..c.n.s arousal -although WHY is this an "advantage"(?)-and more successful instances of copulation.I'm just rather hoping that Mr Mushrooms doesn't have one with me for failing to eschew the subject!  :devil: 


--------------------
"Odrade read the word silently and then aloud.
"Arafel."
She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources.
"Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""

Edited by Lonewolf (12/01/03 04:38 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: pluteus]
    #2149282 - 12/01/03 11:50 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAnnoA
Experimenter
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 06/17/99
Posts: 24,166
Loc: my room
Last seen: 9 days, 12 hours
Trusted Identifier
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2149767 - 12/01/03 03:11 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

>Something ont he left of my keyboard kleeps erasing my text while typing fast.

Type in an editor and save frequently. Once you are done, copy and paste the text into the browser.....

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinepluteus
level-9 deviant

Registered: 08/12/03
Posts: 170
Loc: London area, UK
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: Anno]
    #2149994 - 12/01/03 04:49 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Lonewolf, there are other current threads that have featured intense debate / speculation about the evolutionary role of psilocybin & related compounds. (e.g. "what is psilocXX function n the mushroom?" on the Advanced Cultivation forum)

Arguments that these mushrooms have enjoyed selective advantages over evolutionary time because of the 'trippiness' of their chemicals aren't convincing. Some posters have sensibly suggested testing the efficacy of these compounds as deterrents to insects / fungivorous organisms / viruses. Or they may just be by-products of some other (advantageous) metabolic pathway.

The essential mechanism of natural selection is not really disputed (within a population, individual organisms differ in heritable traits; survival and fecundity are determined by these traits, hence over successive generations, fitter genotypes spread through the population). However, the ecological / genetic complexity of the real world, together with the timescales involved, often does make it difficult to extract clear evidence for natural selection. What contributes to increased fitness becomes confused by the linkage and hyper-interactivity of thousands of traits.

Despite this, there is a large and rapidly growing body of evidence which supports natural selection as a major mechanism of evolution (in fact I know of no contemporary bona fide researchers who would disagree with this stance). Detailed case studies of populations which are evolving according to the principles of natural selection fill the literature. Natural selection in populations of various microbes, insects, plants, etc., has been documented even to the level of the sequences of the specific alleles which are changing in frequency, the rates of change per generation, and their contribution to increased fitness according to specific selection pressures.

I think rather than saying that our concept of natural selection is not 'accurate', it'd be more realistic to say: "apart from natural selection, mechanisms of sexual selection, neutral genetic drift, and various non-random but also non-selection-driven extinction events have been shown to play important roles in shaping evolutionary history."
This is what the last decade of intensive molecular research into changing genotype and nucleotide frequencies and distributions (which, after all, is what we now must mean by the term 'evolution') has shown us. I think a familiarity with this literature is essential if you are to honestly (and not prematurely) critique the accuracy of our notions of natural selection.

So, we may still be at the beginning of understanding evolution, but, Mr. Mushrooms, I think that saying that "we still aren't sure natural selection is accurate" is misleadingly overstating our ignorance, by way of oversimplification.

"We have so much to learn about life" - couldn't agree more. What we have yet to learn increases daily...

...had quite a good hunt today. A few species that were new to me. Pics soon!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSilverwolf
sandtrout
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/06/03
Posts: 1,108
Loc: Darkover
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: Anno]
    #2150008 - 12/01/03 04:55 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

I'm so glad you said that Mr.M (and not just because I agree with you)..
After all if the so called "head index" (must be "brachiocephalic" or some such in latin) can change in one generation when a specific human gene pool is exposed "full time" to an environment different ,although not necessarily radically,from that of it's ancestors..?Clearly however "natural selection" is going on but perhaps not in the way we have come to understand from Darwin.If individual cells ,for instance, are said to have their own individualised form of consciousness perhaps we can say that some form of conscious choosing is going on...  :eek:   


--------------------
"Odrade read the word silently and then aloud.
"Arafel."
She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources.
"Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: pluteus]
    #2150622 - 12/01/03 08:32 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinepluteus
level-9 deviant

Registered: 08/12/03
Posts: 170
Loc: London area, UK
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: ]
    #2153710 - 12/02/03 11:59 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

hehe, probably best not to encourage me too much  !!
i think i inflict my vision of science on you shroomerites cos if i try it on my friends, they sit on me and give me blowbacks

i often read back what I've written and think, ???  :wtf: :lol:
but for those who bother to keep up, there is some genuine effort & reflection going into my keyboard, honest

however, if we're gonna talk about posting quality, i think for sheer originality of expression, Lonewolf must be awarded a cake  :laugh:   

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinecanid
irregular meat sprocket
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/26/02
Posts: 11,912
Loc: looking for zeebras, n. c...
Last seen: 2 months, 8 days
Trusted Identifier
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: pluteus]
    #2154133 - 12/03/03 04:07 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

ok :smile: cake for all.
:laugh:

i like this discussion; though, i do not quite feel iunclined, nor ready, to participate.


--------------------



Attn PWN hunters: If you should come across a bluing Psilocybe matching P. pellicolusa please smell it.
If you detect a scent reminiscent of Anethole (anise) please preserve a specimen or two for study and please PM me.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSilverwolf
sandtrout
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/06/03
Posts: 1,108
Loc: Darkover
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: pluteus]
    #2154148 - 12/03/03 04:31 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Thank you Pluteus, egg free if you would though!


--------------------
"Odrade read the word silently and then aloud.
"Arafel."
She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources.
"Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: pluteus]
    #2156863 - 12/03/03 09:53 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSilverwolf
sandtrout
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/06/03
Posts: 1,108
Loc: Darkover
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: ]
    #2160516 - 12/05/03 03:19 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Or a Fungal infection?(see British Indigenous)


--------------------
"Odrade read the word silently and then aloud.
"Arafel."
She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources.
"Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleZen Peddler
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: Silverwolf]
    #2160605 - 12/05/03 05:07 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

My understanding was that it was commonly suggested that Ps.cyanescens was european in origin - but the fact that Ps.cyanescens from europe has no pluerocystidia, yet the US continental Ps.cyanescens does have these indicates that these could be quite different entities - certainly different type expressions.
Im hoping Pluteus will include the cyanescens specimens from the UK when he studies the subaeruginosa variants i have forwarded him - along with some azurescens and cyanescens cultivars.
Stropharia (Hypholoma?) aurantiaca is an interesting example - it is the most common woodloving mushroom anywhere in southern Australia - everywhere there is wood mulch, these guys are present - and often in concert with subaeruginosa and allies. Ofcourse these species is mildly poisonous - friends of mine who were picking in the dark for some strange reason pciked a few and ate them - got quite bad stomach pains, aches and diaherra. Sometimes drunken people learn the ahrd way - but it could have been worse - there are galerina here as well.
Pluteus' point that this is an introduced species would suggest the possiblity of cyanescens being a thriving import.
Buchanan and many mycologists tend to believe that subaeruginosa is an expression of Ps.cyanescens imported as mycelia on plant material - and they are quite similar - some variants of subaeruginosa are almost identical to cyanescens - Guzman even got it wrong originally according to reports before be got his microscope out and delineated on a whim.

Lonewolf - if it has been archaeologically contended that druidism utilised a type of psychoactive plant, is there any evidence that this would or could be a mushroom? My understanding is that mushrooms like Ps.semilanceata and Panaeolus subbalt. have been associated with modern versions of mainland european paganism - but the missing point here is that the majority of mainland european pre-christian religions were not druidic, but expressions of Nordic/norman beliefs - the god Wotan substituted for Odin, etc. These are quite at odd with the druidic type themes present in these modern pagan groups.

I love Terence McKenna, but most of his archaeological theories regarding mushroom cults and the partnership ideology of a mushroom worshipping neolithic are based on pretty flimsy evidence - but so is much of archaeology from that period.



--------------------

Edited by Zen Peddler (12/05/03 05:08 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineSilverwolf
sandtrout
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/06/03
Posts: 1,108
Loc: Darkover
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2161595 - 12/05/03 01:11 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

I hope you don't feel that I'm proseyltising for human sacrifice here!I hope I'm doing quite the contrary.Unfortunately the words "druid" and "celt" get bandied around,and sometimes "bannered" around-if you know what I mean-"willee nillee",paleolithicum and the megalithic "Brethonic" civilisation should not partake in the debate on human sacrifice,in my house at least,without further evidence that it was practised."Druids"-those who have the wisdom of the trees-clearly existed,in "linguistic terms" well, before the inhabitants of these isles developed the ability to smelt iron.  :alert:


--------------------
"Odrade read the word silently and then aloud.
"Arafel."
She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources.
"Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""

Edited by Lonewolf (12/05/03 01:57 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]

Shop: MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Mushroom-Hut Mono Tub Substrate   North Spore Bulk Substrate   PhytoExtractum Kratom Powder for Sale   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Look-a-like Psilocybe cyanescens (pics) oO_wombat_Oo 9,424 4 06/10/01 11:22 PM
by mjshroomer
* More Psilocybe cyanescens Pictures mjshroomer 8,634 18 10/01/02 05:37 PM
by viscid
* can someone tell me if PSILOCYBE CYANESCENE....... johnH 4,862 18 01/15/03 09:06 AM
by @cro
* Psilocybe cyanescens in NC mountains? AbeZard 4,581 12 09/10/01 04:02 PM
by doo
* Some Galerinas and A Psilocybe cyanescens 11-25-2003 mjshroomer 3,274 1 11/25/03 05:58 PM
by angryshroom
* Psilocybe cyanescens in Oregon
( 1 2 3 all )
Joshua 12,843 46 01/21/04 12:01 AM
by Joshua
* Psilocybe cyanescens in Springfield 4/26/03 WorkmanV 1,727 12 04/27/03 05:46 PM
by bansheee
* Freshly Picked Psilocybe cyanescens mjshroomer 2,969 10 10/20/01 01:24 PM
by Psylosymon

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: ToxicMan, inski, Alan Rockefeller, Duggstar, TimmiT, Anglerfish, Tmethyl, Lucis, Doc9151, Land Trout
22,051 topic views. 0 members, 18 guests and 7 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.03 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 12 queries.