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Offlinepluteus
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Registered: 08/12/03
Posts: 170
Loc: London area, UK
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: pluteus]
    #2141732 - 11/28/03 07:15 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

p.s. Lonewolf - there was plenty of blue bruising on cap and stem when fresh, just didnt show up well in the photos. They retain high potency upon drying, remaining strong for 8 months or more. I don't know if anyone's formally bioassayed this particular strain, but it's phenomenally potent. 3 little fresh caps can blow your head off.

I've seen them growing on all kinds of woodchips, will have a look at your thread and post there.

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Anonymous

Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: pluteus]
    #2141889 - 11/28/03 10:02 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

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OfflineSilverwolf
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Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: pluteus]
    #2142301 - 11/28/03 02:01 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Who cares?REALLY I shudder,and you an Englishman!
But seriously folks when you say "genetic evidence" what do you mean Plute?Can you give us an idea of how it would be garnered?
Also whilst considering the whole "bog mummy" issue another psilocybe species sprang to mind,that of p.crobula "grows on fallen twigs" is all it says in the Larousse.I just fancy that,from what I have heard of this smaller (?) psilocybe species,it may be likely that,if indigenous to these isles,we would find some evidence of it's usage in "druidic" sacrificial brews.


--------------------
"Odrade read the word silently and then aloud.
"Arafel."
She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources.
"Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""

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Offlinepluteus
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Registered: 08/12/03
Posts: 170
Loc: London area, UK
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: Silverwolf]
    #2142866 - 11/28/03 06:16 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

forgot to mention, I have Stropharia aurantiaca clone cultures if anyone's interested in trying to grow this pretty species

------------------

OK, Lonewolf, first, the bog mummy issue, or BMI

hehehe (as a matter of critical importance to our nation's cultural heritage, the first BMI summit today concluded that our forefathers must be trippin')

I don't think P. crobula is active?  I know a couple of the field guides (e.g. Roger Phillips') say yea but Stamets and the community at large say nay.  I doubt it could be gathered in sufficient quantity to make it a useful sacrement even if it were.  It's really small and pops up on its own.  Here's one I found last month:


Psilocybe crobula (sorry for crap pic) - woody debris in a Norfolk woodland, Nov '03

The genus Psilocybe was recently shown to be an invalid grouping, forcing together at least two major lineages of mushrooms which are of mixed ancestry and hence not each other's closest relatives.  Essentially, one of these lineages has given rise to inactive species while the other has diversified into hallucinogenic species.  P. crobula clearly belongs to the former group in both its phylogenetic and morphological affinities.  (incidentally the type species of Psilocybe - the inactive P. montana - is also in the former group, which means those nasty molecular taxonomists might soon change the genus name of all our beloved psychoactive psilocybes to something most unappealing :frown: )

So anyway, maybe we should mostly look out for liberty caps in these mummy stomachs.  There are also genetic tests for the presence of *any* mushroom of the psychoactive lineage of the genus Psilocybe in a sample (I have an interesting but terribly written recent Korean paper on this), but the DNA cannot be too degraded. 

How degraded would bog mummy stomach mushroom DNA be?  Somewhat?  You tell me.

------------------

OK, now back to (what for the time being is called!) Psilocybe cyanescens

I apologize for the fit of indifference, it's just that this particular debate has been stuck in the same conceptual rut for like, aaages

When I say 'genetic evidence' I am talking about, to be brutally honest, analyzing quickly-evolving homologous DNA sequences between many samples, in order to build up a picture of their relationships, the patterns of divergence in their DNA, and how this pattern varies with geographical distribution.  Among other types of confirming evidence,  the original home ranges would contain much higher levels of genetic variation than relatively recently invaded areas, and also these genotypes would be basal to all other lineages.

This is analagous to the famous studies of modern human origins. Despite huge amounts of trans-continental migration and population interbreeding over long periods of time, analyses still strongly indicate that the Homo sapiens lineage evolved a single time in sub-Saharan Africa, and we can roughly date this event (Ok, there are still some who regard this as contentious, but you get the point - it will be easier to study these issues in the case of P. cyanescens because migration events have presumably been much more recent)

You ask - How would this evidence be garnered?

First, by building up a library of multiple samples of Psilocybe cyanescens from as many different places as possible.  This is key.  It seems the Shroomery community could achieve something like this for many Psilocybe species, which would be a wonderful thing.

Then, by extracting, amplifying, and sequencing an appropriate gene region, homologous across all samples.

Then, by using phylogenetic reconstruction and statistical techniques to address the issues of relationship, divergence, and diversity that I wrote about above.

I might post more about these techniques and what they have to say so far about psilocybe diversification in general (and what the future holds), but now I really must chill 

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Anonymous

Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: pluteus]
    #2143905 - 11/29/03 07:50 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Posts: 13,774
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Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: ]
    #2143939 - 11/29/03 08:30 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Pluteus, that kind of study which you suggest should be something you should do at school because it will only be an individual study which might never occur. Someone in a classroom studying DNA sequewnces would want to be interested in studying all of the various P. cyanescens from all over the world. Only difference would be in the potencies and substrates.

But if you are not a strudent who has this particular project as his goal or for his thesis, such a study will never be conducted by anyone.
Velgadys DNA study changed names of the Mexican Psilocybes to psychedelia. Which is a stupid name.
he has caused disent amongst many mycologists over this suggestive name change for the mexican psilocybes which contained psilocine/psilocyine. I personally also do not agree with this proppsal he suggested.

Edited by mjshroomer (11/29/03 02:13 PM)

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Offlinepluteus
level-9 deviant

Registered: 08/12/03
Posts: 170
Loc: London area, UK
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2144304 - 11/29/03 12:34 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

MJ - but what if someone was already conducting molecular research into mushrooms, not using psilocybes but some other set of mushroom species as their study group?  Then, if they had a passionate interest in understanding the metapopulation and evolutionary genetics of P. cyanescens, it would be a simple case of them including P. cyanescens specimens in amongst the many hundreds of routine DNA sequencing batches they'd be running anyway, and spending a few weekends sorting this data out.  Mating experiments etc. can be done at home.

---------------------

Mr Mushrooms & MJ - notice I said "nasty molecular taxonomists" - so I think we share the same general stance about the naming of mushroom species here.  I think that Vilgalys so far has only got round to informally designating the psychoactive clade 'Psychedelia' and has not published a formal taxonomic revision.  If he does, everyone can ignore him like most are ignoring his splitting of Coprinus into four genera, or someone could propose a formal nomen conservandum or whatever.

But, Mr Mushrooms, "phuck phylogeny" entirely???

I'd really like to convince you that phylogenetic techniques have uses above and beyond the rather bland business of pure classification. Leaving these annoying nomenclatural issues aside, we find that phylogenies allow us to address all kinds of evolutionary questions that we'd be simply unable to tackle if only morphological evidence was considered.

Do you not find it interesting that the mushroom species long since grouped under one genus name, Psilocybe, are strongly indicated - by multiple unlinked gene regions not involved with psilocybin production - to cluster into two independent groups, one psychoactive and one inactive, with many morphological features now reinforcing the separation of these lineages in hindsight?

Then look at the topology of these phylogenies.  Start mapping on microscopic, ecological, geographical, and biochemical characters.  Suddenly we can start to find out about character correlations and correlates of diversification.  How many times have psilocybe lineages invaded wood substrates?  What traits might have promoted higher rates of speciation?  To what extent are levels of psilocybin production strongly contrained or plastic amongst sister species and sister clades?  What micro- and macroscopic features are the most reliable indicators of evolutionary relationship?  What are the most basal psilocybin-producing species and what primitive features do they share with other dark-spored groups that may have evolved psilocybin production?

As more species and more gene regions are sequenced, our confidence in retrieving sound answers to these questions can only improve.

Surely these issues are a lot more interesting than nomenclature, and it is perhaps unfortunate that most phylogenetic work on mushrooms seems only to generate phylogenies for the sake of classification.  So, you may well decide to not use phylogenetic criteria in naming mushroom species, and I would sometimes support you there, depending on each individual case.  But to dispense with phlyogeny as a source of evidence for our enquiries into mushroom evolution would be a great shame.

I can even think of cases where the use of molecular phylogenies for fungal classification has been very useful.  The taxonomy of anamorphic fungi lacking a sexual stage was a mess until recent times, because sexual structures have been the source of almost all grouping characters.  Now that we may determine these fungi's closest sexual relatives using molecular phylogenies, researchers developing treatments for diseases caused by these fungi have a clear advantage - and this type of head start bestowed by phlyogenetic information applies to many groups of organisms.

Mr Mushrooms, you seem to imply that molecular phylogenetic techniques are totally without merit, even in matters unrelated to classification.  I'd be interested to hear your justification of this stance?

My example of modern human origins was a perhaps a poor choice - there are many more clear-cut cases of powerful phylogenetic accuracy. 

Phylogenetic techniques provide powerful tools currently residing at the heart of diverse biological fields, for example in medical virology and bacteriology, and of course in many areas of evolutionary ecology. 

To take one more or less random example, there was a case where the original home locality of an invading beetle pest of south american and african crops was unknown.  Phylogenetic analysis of numerous representative beetle samples clearly revealed that (i) this beetle 'species' actually consisted of two cryptic species and (ii) the basal lineages of both of these cryptic species was represented by specimens from a region of Amazonian forest - subsequent visits to this forest located natural enemies of the beetles (parasitoid wasps) which were then successfully used in treating the pests worldwide.

Then of course there are the numerous 'simulation' studies, where organisms such as viruses have been bred over thousands of generations, and regularly isolated according to different selection pressures.  A 'blind' phylogenetic analysis of viral DNA following these many years of breeding recovered the exact pattern of isolation and strain divergence that had been experimentally imposed.

So, given, as I have said before, that the relatively simple cellular structure of mushrooms serves poorly to record their evolutionary history, and that cases of convergent, parallel, and revergent evolution are rife amonst mushroom lineages, an argument against molecular phylogenies as being our most powerful and reliable tool yet for detecting mushroom relationships should rely on something more concrete than personal disbelief and resentment about name-changing.

If you're really portraying these techniques as being generally without merit, on a logical rather than a personal basis, you have an absolutely vast body of supportive evidence and theoretical framework to overturn.  I've done my darndest to convince you of that here, I hope you appreciate my effort if nothing else  :smile:

(and if you only meant to criticize the sometimes endless and pointless re-naming that goes on in the wake of phylogenetic studies, and not the efficacy of phylogenies themselves, then sorry to have rambled on for ages about this.  And thanks for calling me 'brilliant' :laugh: )





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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Registered: 07/21/99
Posts: 13,774
Loc: gone with my shrooms
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: pluteus]
    #2144601 - 11/29/03 02:23 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

It just disa[peared two times I responded to this with a long tirade. Sorry i do not feel like rewritng a third time. Something ont he left of my keyboard kleeps erasing my text while typing fast. not sure what two keys I hit and then i cannot remember what exactley what it was I said.

mj

Nice post Pluteus

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Anonymous

Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: pluteus]
    #2144892 - 11/29/03 04:40 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

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Offlinepluteus
level-9 deviant

Registered: 08/12/03
Posts: 170
Loc: London area, UK
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: ]
    #2145207 - 11/29/03 07:06 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

hehe, that's okay, as you've probably guessed by now, i enjoy rambling on about the glories of phylogenetics at the slightest provocation

so thanks to you both, sorry your post didn't work MJ

big shroom hunt tomorrow morning - wish me luck!

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OfflineSilverwolf
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Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: pluteus]
    #2148668 - 12/01/03 05:52 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

How can you classify something by the way in which it evolved anyway?Thinks..no I suppose there are,for want of a better word,"methodologies" of evolution which can be categorised(?).So presumably in order to group types one would look for specific "environmental response mechanisms" that...ah yes.Qu."what is the evolutionary advantage of being a psychoactive plant,and what advantages (if any) does ingesting such a plant bestow on the organism which does so?"Terrance Meckenna talks about increases in visual acuity..
(ed's note:He DOESN'T talk about auditory improvements,HOWEVER it seems to me that McKenna has a "visual bias" anyway ie:he may "see what you mean" without ever listening to a word you say!)..c.n.s arousal -although WHY is this an "advantage"(?)-and more successful instances of copulation.I'm just rather hoping that Mr Mushrooms doesn't have one with me for failing to eschew the subject!  :devil: 


--------------------
"Odrade read the word silently and then aloud.
"Arafel."
She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources.
"Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""

Edited by Lonewolf (12/01/03 04:38 PM)

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Anonymous

Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: pluteus]
    #2149282 - 12/01/03 11:50 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: mjshroomer]
    #2149767 - 12/01/03 03:11 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

>Something ont he left of my keyboard kleeps erasing my text while typing fast.

Type in an editor and save frequently. Once you are done, copy and paste the text into the browser.....

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Offlinepluteus
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Registered: 08/12/03
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Loc: London area, UK
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Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: Anno]
    #2149994 - 12/01/03 04:49 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Lonewolf, there are other current threads that have featured intense debate / speculation about the evolutionary role of psilocybin & related compounds. (e.g. "what is psilocXX function n the mushroom?" on the Advanced Cultivation forum)

Arguments that these mushrooms have enjoyed selective advantages over evolutionary time because of the 'trippiness' of their chemicals aren't convincing. Some posters have sensibly suggested testing the efficacy of these compounds as deterrents to insects / fungivorous organisms / viruses. Or they may just be by-products of some other (advantageous) metabolic pathway.

The essential mechanism of natural selection is not really disputed (within a population, individual organisms differ in heritable traits; survival and fecundity are determined by these traits, hence over successive generations, fitter genotypes spread through the population). However, the ecological / genetic complexity of the real world, together with the timescales involved, often does make it difficult to extract clear evidence for natural selection. What contributes to increased fitness becomes confused by the linkage and hyper-interactivity of thousands of traits.

Despite this, there is a large and rapidly growing body of evidence which supports natural selection as a major mechanism of evolution (in fact I know of no contemporary bona fide researchers who would disagree with this stance). Detailed case studies of populations which are evolving according to the principles of natural selection fill the literature. Natural selection in populations of various microbes, insects, plants, etc., has been documented even to the level of the sequences of the specific alleles which are changing in frequency, the rates of change per generation, and their contribution to increased fitness according to specific selection pressures.

I think rather than saying that our concept of natural selection is not 'accurate', it'd be more realistic to say: "apart from natural selection, mechanisms of sexual selection, neutral genetic drift, and various non-random but also non-selection-driven extinction events have been shown to play important roles in shaping evolutionary history."
This is what the last decade of intensive molecular research into changing genotype and nucleotide frequencies and distributions (which, after all, is what we now must mean by the term 'evolution') has shown us. I think a familiarity with this literature is essential if you are to honestly (and not prematurely) critique the accuracy of our notions of natural selection.

So, we may still be at the beginning of understanding evolution, but, Mr. Mushrooms, I think that saying that "we still aren't sure natural selection is accurate" is misleadingly overstating our ignorance, by way of oversimplification.

"We have so much to learn about life" - couldn't agree more. What we have yet to learn increases daily...

...had quite a good hunt today. A few species that were new to me. Pics soon!

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OfflineSilverwolf
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Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: Anno]
    #2150008 - 12/01/03 04:55 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

I'm so glad you said that Mr.M (and not just because I agree with you)..
After all if the so called "head index" (must be "brachiocephalic" or some such in latin) can change in one generation when a specific human gene pool is exposed "full time" to an environment different ,although not necessarily radically,from that of it's ancestors..?Clearly however "natural selection" is going on but perhaps not in the way we have come to understand from Darwin.If individual cells ,for instance, are said to have their own individualised form of consciousness perhaps we can say that some form of conscious choosing is going on...  :eek:   


--------------------
"Odrade read the word silently and then aloud.
"Arafel."
She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources.
"Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""

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Anonymous

Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: pluteus]
    #2150622 - 12/01/03 08:32 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

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Offlinepluteus
level-9 deviant

Registered: 08/12/03
Posts: 170
Loc: London area, UK
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: ]
    #2153710 - 12/02/03 11:59 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

hehe, probably best not to encourage me too much  !!
i think i inflict my vision of science on you shroomerites cos if i try it on my friends, they sit on me and give me blowbacks

i often read back what I've written and think, ???  :wtf: :lol:
but for those who bother to keep up, there is some genuine effort & reflection going into my keyboard, honest

however, if we're gonna talk about posting quality, i think for sheer originality of expression, Lonewolf must be awarded a cake  :laugh:   

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Offlinecanid
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Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: pluteus]
    #2154133 - 12/03/03 04:07 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

ok :smile: cake for all.
:laugh:

i like this discussion; though, i do not quite feel iunclined, nor ready, to participate.


--------------------



Attn PWN hunters: If you should come across a bluing Psilocybe matching P. pellicolusa please smell it.
If you detect a scent reminiscent of Anethole (anise) please preserve a specimen or two for study and please PM me.

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OfflineSilverwolf
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Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: pluteus]
    #2154148 - 12/03/03 04:31 AM (20 years, 3 months ago)

Thank you Pluteus, egg free if you would though!


--------------------
"Odrade read the word silently and then aloud.
"Arafel."
She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources.
"Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""

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Anonymous

Re: English Psilocybe cyanescens - new find / pics [Re: pluteus]
    #2156863 - 12/03/03 09:53 PM (20 years, 3 months ago)

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