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Offlinezzripz
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Registered: 12/23/08
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Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
what does 'materialism' even mean?
    #21311991 - 02/22/15 10:29 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

This civilization is supposed to abide by a philosophy of materialism. This means that the belief is, which is claimed to be supported by materialistic science that all reality is matter or material, and even consciousness (which is even considered illusory by certain disciplines of science like neuroscience) is said to be a product of the brain

Any talk of 'spirituality' in this culture is therefore considered to be delusional, the 'hallucination' of the brain which is 'matter'.

So what are you thoughts on this big question?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21312000 - 02/22/15 10:37 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
This civilization is supposed to abide by a philosophy of materialism. This means that the belief is, which is claimed to be supported by materialistic science that all reality is matter or material, and even consciousness (which is even considered illusory by certain disciplines of science like neuroscience) is said to be a product of the brain

Any talk of 'spirituality' in this culture is therefore considered to be delusional, the 'hallucination' of the brain which is 'matter'.

So what are you thoughts on this big question?





Sounds like a huge bias on your part.  Science does not consider the idea of spirit delusional. It considers it and looks for evidence to support it and finds little to nothing to work with so it remains an unproven hypothesis.

You really sound a lot like the people you are always railing about.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinecbub
it
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: Icelander]
    #21312252 - 02/22/15 12:16 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

As I see it, the guy presented the essence of materialism - the topic he wishes to discuss. Hardly a reason to focus and judge his traits. This is very childish for a man of your age and experience and clarity. (touché)


--------------------
It's fine.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: cbub]
    #21312269 - 02/22/15 12:20 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Well I don't see it that way and I do see what you did there and so discount it.  If you can't walk your talk then your words don't mean much at all. 

As I disagree with what the "essence" of materialism is. Which I pointed out

Maybe this isn't something you are good at but I tend to follow people here and remember their other posts and if they relate to what they are currently saying.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleWhite Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21312302 - 02/22/15 12:30 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

For me materialism helps me understand cause and effect. We live in a world where stuff interacts with other stuff through forces. Stuff is generally called 'matter'. It is useful because we can predict how matter will behave given certain circumstances. e.g. I need to put gas in my car or else it wont start.


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Offlinecbub
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: Icelander]
    #21312412 - 02/22/15 01:00 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Materialism assumes matter is primary and we came out of it as a product of it.
That's quite the definition of it and disagreeing won't change it.

No, following people on here isn't something I'm good at and feel no pull to change it.
By all means, go ahead putting labels on people's foreheads, but do not draw pride from great wisdom in the same breath.. while you talk about walking the talk.


--------------------
It's fine.


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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21312640 - 02/22/15 01:46 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I think it means whatever you want it to mean, to me it implies strictly being aware of physical things that you can tangibly observe and measure, there are many forms of materialism, some extremely ignorant but also it's good there are people in the world that devote their lives to progessing materialist knowledge as it can potentially create a better standard of living for everyone, but it hasn't done so yet by itself so it can obviously not be called true intelligence, it's the begining of intelligence though because we're weighing and measuring parts of the universe not just as human beings trying to make use of it all but also in an attempt to understand ourself as the universe, understanding ourself inevitably leads beyond all materialism to awareness

Through materialism it's blatantly not proovable that awareness is immaterial but it is still logical and proovable through direct experience, immaterialism and that direct experience can't help but have spiritual implications

People may think you are delusional or that spirituality is a hallucenation, but people themselves are a delusion and a hallucenation


--------------------


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InvisibleSun King
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21313626 - 02/22/15 05:39 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
This civilization is supposed to abide by a philosophy of materialism. This means that the belief is, which is claimed to be supported by materialistic science that all reality is matter or material, and even consciousness (which is even considered illusory by certain disciplines of science like neuroscience) is said to be a product of the brain

Any talk of 'spirituality' in this culture is therefore considered to be delusional, the 'hallucination' of the brain which is 'matter'.

So what are you thoughts on this big question?




All those materialist Christians hate talk of spirituality.

:derpyouverymuch:


--------------------


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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #21314884 - 02/22/15 10:30 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
This civilization is supposed to abide by a philosophy of materialism. This means that the belief is, which is claimed to be supported by materialistic science that all reality is matter or material, and even consciousness (which is even considered illusory by certain disciplines of science like neuroscience) is said to be a product of the brain

Any talk of 'spirituality' in this culture is therefore considered to be delusional, the 'hallucination' of the brain which is 'matter'.

So what are you thoughts on this big question?





Sounds like a huge bias on your part.  Science does not consider the idea of spirit delusional. It considers it and looks for evidence to support it and finds little to nothing to work with so it remains an unproven hypothesis.

You really sound a lot like the people you are always railing about.





Yeah, you're right but the problem is that many people in science take this absense of evidence, as evidence of absense and reject spiritual ideas and concepts because they can't work with them in the way they are used to working with ideas and concepts.

The radical, revolutionary thing about what the sages have to sya, is that they say the ultimate truth ultimately goes beyond what can be percieved through the human sensory apparatuses. Scientists on the other hand, naively concern themselves only with what can be percieved through the senses. THey assume that because it can be seen it must be more important than the unseen. What a stupid, naive and silly assumption.

Obviosly there is an "inner eye" (for lack of a better term) which "sees" what is percieved through the senses. Just close yer eyes for one moment. Seeing has ceased but somethin' is still there which "sees" the lack of seeing. What the hell is this and why aren't scientists interest in finding out? Even the few scientists who might take an interest in this, will always end up trying to describe in terms of what can be sensed (ei, it is some function of the brain). Well, where did you get the idea of a brain from mr. scientist? Oh that's right, you SAW it. So, obviously, the inner eye comes first, before anything else. You may also notice, you can't get rid of your inner eye. You can pluck out your normal eyes. You can even have parts of your brain removed. But let me one of you folks separate yourself from your inner eye. I tell you it cannot be done. Where it goes, you go.

What has this to do with anything? Well I believe it was Miester Echkart who said, the eye through which I see God is the same eye through which God sees me. The Christian mystics (and mystics from other traditions as well) clearly understood that seeing was indeed more fundamental than what was seen.

THis is a truth that is almost completely lost to our modern culture. Everyone, even most of the smartest scientists, are all focusing on what they see, ignoring the obvious question of who sees it?


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: Deviate]
    #21316160 - 02/23/15 08:34 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Everyone Thinking That His
Burden Is The Heaviest
Who Feels It Knows It
Lord


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #21316375 - 02/23/15 10:07 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

The place here which pushes the materialist philosophy the most is the '
Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology' which is also supposed to include
Quote:

epistemology, ethics, metaphysics/ontology, the psychology of mind and the sociological study of cultural and individual behavior.




However you are met there with a belligerent attitude against anyone daring to speak of spirituality. They try and impose THEIR--get ready for a BIG word--epistemology at you which is defined as the theory of knowledge, especially with regard to its methods, validity, and scope, and the distinction between justified belief and opinion.

As well as this these materialists tend to support their own. So if anyone there is open to spirituality, they can find themselves trolled, and insulted BUT the mods there--being of the same materialist mindset--will be blind to it. In this way they can defend their little clique from any people with spiritual views hanging around too long. I have been particularly banned from there quite a few times now.

materialists also want to CONFINE topics according to their epistemology. So say you needed to include politics, or--as they choose to call any dissent from offical conspiracy theories--'conspiracy theory', and any other interconnecting subjects you can even be banned outright for THAT!
Here is the reason I got for the latest ban:

Quote:

Offending Post: Re: The Technological Singularity - care to philosophize?
Infraction description: Posts which conflict with our forum guidelines or community standards are not allowed.
Ban details: The PS&P forum is a debate orientated forum and you're refusing to debate in good faith, answer direct questions if they challenge your beliefs, and primarily argue with your own words and think for yourself, rather than spamming links to do your arguing for you.  You've derailed a topic on technology with everything from blaming the Jews for 9/11 to Christians & Satanists, and your history shows that you've been warned about these things before.

Please take this ban to heart. We keep a log of all infractions and repeat offenders may be permanently banned from the entire board.
If you have any questions, you should contact CosmicJoke directly.




So they take MY inclusions of interconneting subjects in an out of centext list, and blame people for simpley occasionally linking to an article or video. Yet trolls there --who support the materialist belief--post absolutely goofy posts, silly pics, trolling, off-subject and THAT it appears is OK.

I am here just pointing out these materialists irrational behaviour.

And of course the PRIVATE threat that if you don't jump to their tune they have the power to ban you from the WHOLE of the fourm, which they did last time! And these people are against fundamentalist religion...?:lolwut:


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21316547 - 02/23/15 10:59 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

You seem like a bit of a trouble maker.  Did you get sent to the principals office much in school?

:lol:


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Offlinezzripz
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Registered: 12/23/08
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #21316569 - 02/23/15 11:05 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I was strapped twice. They would take a running sprint and strap your upturned hands. Schools are evil places and my spirit saw through it
Did you do well :rofl:

And I have to ask this: Are you a materialist? :strokebeard:


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21316592 - 02/23/15 11:10 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
I was strapped twice. They would take a running sprint and strap your upturned hands. Schools are evil places and my spirit saw through it
Did you do well :rofl:

And I have to ask this: Are you a materialist? :strokebeard:




It's Mind Over Matter
I Don't Mind
Because You Don't Matter

:shrug:


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Offlinezzripz
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Registered: 12/23/08
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #21316687 - 02/23/15 11:37 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
I was strapped twice. They would take a running sprint and strap your upturned hands. Schools are evil places and my spirit saw through it
Did you do well :rofl:

And I have to ask this: Are you a materialist? :strokebeard:




It's Mind Over Matter
I Don't Mind
Because You Don't Matter

:shrug:




Suppose I could ban you --IF I were a mod and it was over in the 'philosophy forum'--because you have totally evaded what I directly asked you
Quote:

refusing to debate in good faith, answer direct questions


So, I will try again:

Are you a materialist?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21316716 - 02/23/15 11:48 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I like this quote (by a physicist) on the subject of materialism:


"The notion of a thing is thus seen to be an abstraction, in which it is conceptually separated from its infinite background and substructure. Actually, however, a thing does not and could not exist apart from the context from which it has thus been conceptually abstracted. And therefore the world is not made by putting together the various "things" in it, but, rather, these things are only approximately what we find on analysis in certain contexts and under suitable conditions." --David Bohm


--------------------
Heaven, n. Copulation without culmination.

                                                                    --A. Bierce


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz] * 3
    #21316744 - 02/23/15 11:56 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

zzripz, this isn't ps&p. Please keep your personal drama with that forum out of this one. This forum is about spirituality and mysticism. I have seen several posts now where you are trying to bring your personal woes from ps&p into this forum.

For complaints about the way a forum is run, file a support ticket. For complaints about moderation, post in the moderator issues and complaints forum.

Any more personal issues about the way ps&p is run posted here will earn you a ban as this is not the appropriate forum for such discussion. You have been warned.


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: Kickle]
    #21316834 - 02/23/15 12:13 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
zzripz, this isn't ps&p. Please keep your personal drama with that forum out of this one. This forum is about spirituality and mysticism. I have seen several posts now where you are trying to bring your personal woes from ps&p into this forum.

For complaints about the way a forum is run, file a support ticket. For complaints about moderation, post in the moderator issues and complaints forum.

Any more personal issues about the way ps&p is run posted here will earn you a ban as this is not the appropriate forum for such discussion. You have been warned.




OMFG so you are warning me now. Please explain why a subject about materialism cannot include an experience with materialists?

And btw I have filed a ticket, but see no harm mentioning about this though obviously you do. So can I ask you then. Are you a materialist?

I do not ban people. I may ignore them, but I do not ban them from using A forum or a whole website. That is a big difference, and I am trying to highlight that type of mentality that I have encountered which I think is appropriate.

This forum is supposed give more freedom to explore issues without criticism--surely that is what real spirit is all about?


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21316899 - 02/23/15 12:24 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I am not a materialist, no. Nor do I understand why my personal belief has anything to do with your personal grudges.

You bringing outside drama in is not acceptable. It wouldn't matter what forum it was from. If someone banned you in mushroom cultivation and you went on a rant about how the posters in the cultivation forum clearly aren't cultivating for spiritual ends, I would give you the same warning. It's not appropriate for this forum.


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: Deviate]
    #21317110 - 02/23/15 01:07 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
This civilization is supposed to abide by a philosophy of materialism. This means that the belief is, which is claimed to be supported by materialistic science that all reality is matter or material, and even consciousness (which is even considered illusory by certain disciplines of science like neuroscience) is said to be a product of the brain

Any talk of 'spirituality' in this culture is therefore considered to be delusional, the 'hallucination' of the brain which is 'matter'.

So what are you thoughts on this big question?





Sounds like a huge bias on your part.  Science does not consider the idea of spirit delusional. It considers it and looks for evidence to support it and finds little to nothing to work with so it remains an unproven hypothesis.

You really sound a lot like the people you are always railing about.





Yeah, you're right but the problem is that many people in science take this absense of evidence, as evidence of absense and reject spiritual ideas and concepts because they can't work with them in the way they are used to working with ideas and concepts.

The radical, revolutionary thing about what the sages have to sya, is that they say the ultimate truth ultimately goes beyond what can be percieved through the human sensory apparatuses. Scientists on the other hand, naively concern themselves only with what can be percieved through the senses. THey assume that because it can be seen it must be more important than the unseen. What a stupid, naive and silly assumption.

Obviosly there is an "inner eye" (for lack of a better term) which "sees" what is percieved through the senses. Just close yer eyes for one moment. Seeing has ceased but somethin' is still there which "sees" the lack of seeing. What the hell is this and why aren't scientists interest in finding
Tr out? Even the few scientists who might take an interest in this, will always end up trying to describe in terms of what can be sensed (ei, it is some function of the brain). Well, where did you get the idea of a brain from mr. scientist? Oh that's right, you SAW it. So, obviously, the inner eye comes first, before anything else. You may also notice, you can't get rid of your inner eye. You can pluck out your normal eyes. You can even have parts of your brain removed. But let me one of you folks separate yourself from your inner eye. I tell you it cannot be done. Where it goes, you go.

What has this to do with anything? Well I believe it was Miester Echkart who said, the eye through which I see God is the same eye through which God sees me. The Christian mystics (and mystics from other traditions as well) clearly understood that seeing was indeed more fundamental than what was seen.

THis is a truth that is almost completely lost to our modern culture. Everyone, even most of the smartest scientists, are all focusing on what they see, ignoring the obvious question of who sees it?




I wish it were so cut and dry. I went to school for psychology (the study of the psyche, originally greek for soul) and ended up taking several courses on neuroanatomy, neuropsychology, and trends in neuroscience. No one in that field that I have run across, including the professors, were certain of anything. It's a fledgling field, compared to everything except the computer sciences. It's a field of exploration and none of it is even close to being in stone.

Here's an example of something taught. A person may be speaking in a way that is incredibly difficult to understand. Prior to the discovery of Wernicke, these individuals would likely have been considered quite insane. They speak like anyone else, the rhythm is right, grammatical pauses are present, and there is intonation. The only problem is, the words make nada sense. Instead of saying, "Please pass the salt" it may look more like, "Fire like sky geeble". The intended amount of words come out, but rarely one's which make sense.

So what you may say? Well here's where it gets tricky. People with damage to Wernicke's area often show no signs of being aware that what they are saying is incorrect. They can't fathom why other people are confused by their speech. This is referred to as anosognosia. It appears more commonly than you might think when brain damage is in play. This lack of awareness about what is materializing in the world.

Now does this mean that consciousness occurs in the brain? Nope. The only individuals I have heard make that claim are those outside the field. But for those within the field, they want to understand. Theories come up all the time in all sorts of forms. Yes, the theory that consciousness is a byproduct of the brain exists. Along with the brain as an antenna and many others. There are many ways to explain why damage to the brain results in something like anosognosia. But the field of neurology is actually quite interested in exploring that question rather than making black and white statements from guesswork. So it tests theories. To date there is no empirical explanation for consciousness.

So now one might say, well then because there is no empirical explanation for conscioussness, consciousness must not be empirical. But why make that assumption? So many accuse scientists of lacking the drive to explore, but IMO it's more often than not the accusers that have made up their mind. It's easy to make claims, it's difficult not to know. And in the case of neuroscience there is a ton that is simply unknown. That's why it is attracting so many from the field of psychology. It's a frontier for understanding the psyche in a way that we have not been able to before.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: Kickle]
    #21317176 - 02/23/15 01:18 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I am not a materialist, no. Nor do I understand why my personal belief has anything to do with your personal grudges.

You bringing outside drama in is not acceptable. It wouldn't matter what forum it was from. If someone banned you in mushroom cultivation and you went on a rant about how the posters in the cultivation forum clearly aren't cultivating for spiritual ends, I would give you the same warning. It's not appropriate for this forum.




That is your point of view isn't it? Why--as moderator do you speak for everyone. Can you engage in discussion about this now or are you going to be above it?

You have assumed that Iam 'ranting' because of a 'grudge'. That is your personal view,  or worldview, or image of me. But I am not. I am trying to communicate something. And that is by questioning materialists and their criteria for debate, conversation, exploring subjects/issues and how they can be very bias--ignoring people who have same views of there's to break rules, whilst targeting others whose METHOD of discourse or debate conflicts with their demands how it 'should be done'. Like interconnecting subjects, breaking down boundaries between subjects and so on. Dig? Isn't that epistemology? This is about knowledge and power. Who has the right to censor others who exercise a free spirit of inquiry and encourage the same

All debate is drama. There is always that possible shock if people question your worldview isn't there. So it IS drama. If you wanna get scientificy, they have done MMRI scams and people who have their certainties threatened and the part of the brain that lights up for pain lights up


I am not talking about your analogy of cultivation but of how we should be allowed to explore more freely. Rules for forums should be 'no rules, except you must not insult another personally' and trust people to adapt to flexible complex interactions otherwise there is no radical spirit of inquiry
The question I pose 'what does materialism even mean' must also include the worldviews and beahaviour OF materialists. Do they purposely suppress spirit? Stuff like that. And if so what are the ways they do it? Same kind of stuff can be asked about 'spiritual' people--what is meant by that? Which is going on in another thread to do with that. Why cannot this then be explored in a forum which champions psychedelics and the liberation and freedom and spirit THEY inspire?


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: Kickle]
    #21317189 - 02/23/15 01:21 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

We welcome dissenting points of view over there, otherwise there wouldn't be much to debate about.  However, when somebody rants wildly off-topic and refuses to address the other members, everyone else starts to feel like they're watching his/her version of The 700 Club, rather than participating in an interactive debate... and the flagged posts start rolling in :shrug:.  I didn't know about the moderator complaint forum, filing that away for future reference.

FWIW, I'm often thoroughly convinced that consciousness transcends space and time, as any good Mystic would be.... No less than one day a week :wink:.  Other times it makes more sense to me that we're all just carbon based matter, just like a Materialist would say.  Yet other times, I fess up that I really couldn't say, just like an Agnostic, and breathe a sigh of relief that these issues have very little to do with my identity in the first place.... which is that of an undead mage from Azeroth, of course :wizard:.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21317256 - 02/23/15 01:32 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I wish it were so cut and dry. I went to school for psychology (the study of the psyche, originally greek for soul) and ended up taking several courses on neuroanatomy, neuropsychology, and trends in neuroscience. No one in that field that I have run across, including the professors, were certain of anything. It's a fledgling field, compared to everything except the computer sciences. It's a field of exploration and none of it is even close to being in stone.

Here's an example of something taught. A person may be speaking in a way that is incredibly difficult to understand. Prior to the discovery of Wernicke, these individuals would likely have been considered quite insane. They speak like anyone else, the rhythm is right, grammatical pauses are present, and there is intonation. The only problem is, the words make nada sense. Instead of saying, "Please pass the salt" it may look more like, "Fire like sky geeble". The intended amount of words come out, but rarely one's which make sense.

So what you may say? Well here's where it gets tricky. People with damage to Wernicke's area often show no signs of being aware that what they are saying is incorrect. They can't fathom why other people are confused by their speech. This is referred to as anosognosia. It appears more commonly than you might think when brain damage is in play. This lack of awareness about what is materializing in the world.

Now does this mean that consciousness occurs in the brain? Nope. The only individuals I have heard make that claim are those outside the field. But for those within the field, they want to understand. Theories come up all the time in all sorts of forms. Yes, the theory that consciousness is a byproduct of the brain exists. Along with the brain as an antenna and many others. There are many ways to explain why damage to the brain results in something like anosognosia. But the field of neurology is actually quite interested in exploring that question rather than making black and white statements from guesswork. So it tests theories. To date there is no empirical explanation for consciousness.

So now one might say, well then because there is no empirical explanation for conscioussness, consciousness must not be empirical. But why make that assumption? So many accuse scientists of lacking the drive to explore, but IMO it's more often than not the accusers that have made up their mind. It's easy to make claims, it's difficult not to know. And in the case of neuroscience there is a ton that is simply unknown. That's why it is attracting so many from the field of psychology. It's a frontier for understanding the psyche in a way that we have not been able to before.




Wonderful post, Kickle.  :smile:


Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
We welcome dissenting points of view over there, otherwise there wouldn't be much to debate about.  However, when somebody rants wildly off-topic and refuses to address the other members, everyone else starts to feel like they're watching his/her version of The 700 Club, rather than participating in an interactive debate... and the flagged posts start rolling in :shrug:.  I didn't know about the moderator complaint forum, filing that away for future reference.

FWIW, I'm often thoroughly convinced that consciousness transcends space and time, as any good Mystic would be.... No less than one day a week :wink:.  Other times it makes more sense to me that we're all just carbon based matter, just like a Materialist would say.  Yet other times, I fess up that I really couldn't say, just like an Agnostic, and breathe a sigh of relief that these issues have very little to do with my identity in the first place.... which is that of an undead mage from Azeroth, of course :wizard:.




A true Model Agnostic!  Praise the Saints!


--------------------
Heaven, n. Copulation without culmination.

                                                                    --A. Bierce


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21317292 - 02/23/15 01:41 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
We welcome dissenting points of view over there, otherwise there wouldn't be much to debate about.  However, when somebody rants wildly off-topic and refuses to address the other members, everyone else starts to feel like they're watching his/her version of The 700 Club, rather than participating in an interactive debate... and the flagged posts start rolling in :shrug:.  I didn't know about the moderator complaint forum, filing that away for future reference.

FWIW, I'm often thoroughly convinced that consciousness transcends space and time, as any good Mystic would be.... No less than one day a week :wink:.  Other times it makes more sense to me that we're all just carbon based matter, just like a Materialist would say.  Yet other times, I fess up that I really couldn't say, just like an Agnostic, and breathe a sigh of relief that these issues have very little to do with my identity in the first place.... which is that of an undead mage from Azeroth, of course :wizard:.




See I didn't even know you could flag posts (I think the ignore button is cool). I would never dream of doing that, because I am open to all forms of turns and weaves in discourse. The trouble with a flagging button is that A mindset can clique and use it to secretly censor you and/or get you in trouble and banned, instead of facing your way of talking about things. So, lets ban the flag button :mushroom2: it is like eg someone who does not see any place for the bringing up about 'politics' when talking about 'spirituality' and vice verse. Well he may not, and that is his point of view and freedom which he can express and it can be explored. And if he really hated that he can ignore the person who does see how they are related. Which I do btw.

About your spiritual thinking. yes I can dig that. You accept there can be spiritual experience but do not deny that feeling of materialism. it is a dyanmic process which with dualistic thinking can divide into 'materialism' and 'spiritualism'


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21317312 - 02/23/15 01:47 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
I was strapped twice. They would take a running sprint and strap your upturned hands. Schools are evil places and my spirit saw through it
Did you do well :rofl:

And I have to ask this: Are you a materialist? :strokebeard:




It's Mind Over Matter
I Don't Mind
Because You Don't Matter

:shrug:




Suppose I could ban you --IF I were a mod and it was over in the 'philosophy forum'--because you have totally evaded what I directly asked you
Quote:

refusing to debate in good faith, answer direct questions


So, I will try again:

Are you a materialist?




What does that even mean?  Didn't Madonna do a song about a Material Girl? 

And what do you mean by evasive?  I like that little poem, I think it says something.  People find "things" important only to the extent that they find them important.  One mans trash is another mans treasure.  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  The eye of the tiger.  Who sang it?  Does that even matter?

OK I'm done, your thread is lovely and I'm sure I didn't answer your question.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: LunarEclipse] * 1
    #21317554 - 02/23/15 02:46 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Let's get this back on topic.

Materialism is a conclusion drawn about the way the world operates. IMO it stems from a desire to have something solid to work with - a framework that is concrete and supporting. I think it works fairly well in that regard. There is quite a lot to "fall back" on and most of it is painfully obvious. Anything material can be used.

I personally think, philosophically speaking, the best counter to materialism is the Buddhist exploration of emptiness or many of the explorations in quantum physics. The solidity of the material starts to break down under those lenses and often leaves more questions than answers, defeating the purpose of materialism.


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21317596 - 02/23/15 02:53 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:

About your spiritual thinking. yes I can dig that. You accept there can be spiritual experience but do not deny that feeling of materialism. it is a dyanmic process which with dualistic thinking can divide into 'materialism' and 'spiritualism'





~

As for spirituality, I think it's undeniable that there are radically altered states of consciousness that are locked away from us, and but only require the requisite stimulus to bring them out in full form.    If consciousness was considered a stream <-------------(ooooo)------------> and we were virtually always were restricted to occupying the space in parentheses, it would be that squeeze on consciousness that results in most of our frustrations and misery w/ life on earth.  We want to be free, yet so much of ourselves are locked away.  I think there's plenty of room for conjecture either way, regarding whether we are material or that we're supernatural in essence, but neither have much to do with the expansion of consciousness, or what ultimately makes us feel alive, free, and whole.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: CosmicJoke] * 1
    #21317614 - 02/23/15 02:57 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

:crankey:

take it to PMs and get it out of the forum


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Onlinedeff
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: CosmicJoke] * 1
    #21317649 - 02/23/15 03:06 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

this be Kickle's terrority !  :gangsta:


--------------------



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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #21317865 - 02/23/15 03:51 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
:crankey:

take it to PMs and get it out of the forum




Fair enough, edited out my response to not create further temptation (I have a tendency to zone in to criticism and forget everyone else is participating, sometimes it needs correcting). 

Quote:

Kickle said:
Let's get this back on topic.

Materialism is a conclusion drawn about the way the world operates. IMO it stems from a desire to have something solid to work with - a framework that is concrete and supporting. I think it works fairly well in that regard. There is quite a lot to "fall back" on and most of it is painfully obvious. Anything material can be used.

I personally think, philosophically speaking, the best counter to materialism is the Buddhist exploration of emptiness or many of the explorations in quantum physics. The solidity of the material starts to break down under those lenses and often leaves more questions than answers, defeating the purpose of materialism.




I agree with this, R.A.W. wrote a book called The New Inquisition which you might like, though it's a bit dated now, which specifically addresses what he calls a "fundamentalist materialism" and compares to religious fundamentalism.  It's basically about a tendency within the scientific community to cast out any theories that conflict with a darwinian model of evolution from ever being classified as science, and it's one big tour through history in all the ways it's happened.

Particularly what I find insidious is the idea that visionary states of consciousness can be reduced to mere hallucinations under such models, dismissing the potential human value for such states.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Offlinecheeshcat
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21318063 - 02/23/15 04:25 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Oh it's you again Kickle. Zzripz is the best thing that happened to this forum !


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Offlinecheeshcat
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: cheeshcat]
    #21318075 - 02/23/15 04:28 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Stop trying to suffocate what should be open dialogue, it's wrong. The only reason why you'repicking on zzripz is because he is courageous enough to speak the truth and you don't like it. Truth hurts!!!!!!


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Offlinecheeshcat
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: cheeshcat]
    #21318087 - 02/23/15 04:30 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Oh yeah and buddhism is a load of patriarchal bull! Don't be telling me the first buddha was a male uhhh puh lease i've had enough of mysogynistic males trying to control everything! It's ugly on the inside!


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Offlinecheeshcat
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: cheeshcat]
    #21318101 - 02/23/15 04:32 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Oh and zzripz don't argue with a fool they bring you down totheir level and beat you with experience


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: cheeshcat] * 1
    #21318176 - 02/23/15 04:45 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Well hi to you too :lol:

In the future please keep that rapid fire posting to a single post :smile:


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: cheeshcat]
    #21318364 - 02/23/15 05:20 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

cheeshcat said:
Oh and zzripz don't argue with a fool they bring you down totheir level and beat you with experience




tis a bit hard though when they got trigger happy fingies over the ban button :eek:


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21318390 - 02/23/15 05:25 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
:crankey:

take it to PMs and get it out of the forum




Fair enough, edited out my response to not create further temptation (I have a tendency to zone in to criticism and forget everyone else is participating, sometimes it needs correcting). 

Quote:

Kickle said:
Let's get this back on topic.

Materialism is a conclusion drawn about the way the world operates. IMO it stems from a desire to have something solid to work with - a framework that is concrete and supporting. I think it works fairly well in that regard. There is quite a lot to "fall back" on and most of it is painfully obvious. Anything material can be used.

I personally think, philosophically speaking, the best counter to materialism is the Buddhist exploration of emptiness or many of the explorations in quantum physics. The solidity of the material starts to break down under those lenses and often leaves more questions than answers, defeating the purpose of materialism.




I agree with this, R.A.W. wrote a book called The New Inquisition which you might like, though it's a bit dated now, which specifically addresses what he calls a "fundamentalist materialism" and compares to religious fundamentalism.  It's basically about a tendency within the scientific community to cast out any theories that conflict with a darwinian model of evolution from ever being classified as science, and it's one big tour through history in all the ways it's happened.

Particularly what I find insidious is the idea that visionary states of consciousness can be reduced to mere hallucinations under such models, dismissing the potential human value for such states.




In the 80s because of that terrible woman Thatcher, the ONLY books you could get that mentioned psychedelics were RAW books, and I read a few. He was an interesting character, but...he was a psychedelic transhumanist, and he tried to undermine conspiracy theory by mocking it--though funnily enough that book I never read but have read lots from it online
But I of course agree with him likening fundy materialism to fundy religiousm.
I sense that materialist feel a threat when their beliefs are challenged. That they interpret 'spiritual' to mean the patriarchal meaning of that term. However, even when you mention a more indigenous view they will invariably say 'so, go and live in caves and stop using computers!'


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: cheeshcat]
    #21318402 - 02/23/15 05:27 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

cheeshcat said:
Oh it's you again Kickle. Zzripz is the best thing that happened to this forum !




Thank you very much for your compliments and support and encouragement:heart:. I am just for freedom with responsibility for everyone


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Offlinecheeshcat
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21318620 - 02/23/15 06:15 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I do what I want! As long as it's not harming anyone and I'm abiding by forum rules stop trying to control me! You don't own me!

You cannot argue with a mysogynist they know exactly what they are doing. Disrespecting mother earth


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Offlinecheeshcat
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: cheeshcat]
    #21318630 - 02/23/15 06:18 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Oh and i'm not sure what music you're into zzripz but you should give John Butler Trio a  go. Sunrise over Sea and April Uprising are great albums! They are Australian although the lead singer is part American as well.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: cheeshcat]
    #21319133 - 02/23/15 08:05 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Good I will check it tomorrow. It's night here on the other side of the world. Amazing world this :smile:


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21319168 - 02/23/15 08:12 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

cheeshcat said:
Oh and zzripz don't argue with a fool they bring you down totheir level and beat you with experience




tis a bit hard though when they got trigger happy fingies over the ban button :eek:




:archiebunker:  Pretty sure this was deemed off-topic forum drama that was supposed to stop.


Quote:

zzripz said:
In the 80s because of that terrible woman Thatcher, the ONLY books you could get that mentioned psychedelics were RAW books, and I read a few. He was an interesting character, but...he was a psychedelic transhumanist, and he tried to undermine conspiracy theory by mocking it--though funnily enough that book I never read but have read lots from it online
But I of course agree with him likening fundy materialism to fundy religiousm.
I sense that materialist feel a threat when their beliefs are challenged. That they interpret 'spiritual' to mean the patriarchal meaning of that term. However, even when you mention a more indigenous view they will invariably say 'so, go and live in caves and stop using computers!'




I don't think R.A.W. mocked conspiracy theorists.  He certainly entertained them far more than most people, but he had a reasonable understanding of psychology and the ability for humans to twist facts to fit their own preconceptions.

As for materialist views on spirituality, I don't think that the belief that consciousness exists in the brain would need to exclude the potentiality for valuing ecstatic experiences, including psychedelics, drumming, and dancing, which are things which at least some indigenous people have been keenly aware of promoting health and well being.  I think we have a lot to learn from some of the 4th world, which was historically first, regarding the rift between human beings and nature, and what can be done to bring balance to both the ecosystem and our human minds, without having to stop using computers and live in the jungle :shrug:.  So I agree.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Offlinecheeshcat
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21320536 - 02/24/15 01:08 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Oh ok cool. It's kind of folk shoegaze if you've ever heard. Love night time, it's transitioning to Winter here. It surely is :smile:


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21321031 - 02/24/15 04:37 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

As for materialist views on spirituality, I don't think that the belief that consciousness exists in the brain would need to exclude the potentiality for valuing ecstatic experiences, including psychedelics,




The idea that 'consciousness' is a product of the brain is the central tenet of materialist belief.
For example they believe that nature is not sentient, and the whole meaning of ecstasy is the awareness that all is consciousness---but by that I do mean that there is no material, because that would be idealism which is the inverse of materialism and also dualistic


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InvisibleWhite Beard

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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21321608 - 02/24/15 10:16 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
The idea that 'consciousness' is a product of the brain is the central tenet of materialist belief.







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Offlinezzripz
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: White Beard]
    #21321707 - 02/24/15 10:45 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

wow...zerrrr what a refute!!!:congrats:


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InvisibleWhite Beard

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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21321797 - 02/24/15 11:06 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Consciousness being material is not the central tenant of materialism. Everything is comprised of matter would likely be the central tenant. That does include consciousness, but to say that fact is the central tenant is not true. It's no more central than 'toast is made of matter'.


Edited by White Beard (02/24/15 11:13 AM)


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21321816 - 02/24/15 11:11 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

As for materialist views on spirituality, I don't think that the belief that consciousness exists in the brain would need to exclude the potentiality for valuing ecstatic experiences, including psychedelics,




The idea that 'consciousness' is a product of the brain is the central tenet of materialist belief.
For example they believe that nature is not sentient, and the whole meaning of ecstasy is the awareness that all is consciousness---but by that I do mean that there is no material, because that would be idealism which is the inverse of materialism and also dualistic




I disagree, for me such ecstasy can be characterized by drifting in an expansive inner space, feeling free of time, a sensation of melting and merging with externality, experiencing visions, and feeling euphoric.  Nothing about such altered states of consciousness dictate realization of anything, except perhaps humbleness to how incomprehensible consciousness and reality is.

While I don't pretend to know the meaning of ecstasy, I know that such ecstasy is important to me.  Many of the travails of every day life seem pretty absurd in the face of it, and I really no longer do feel so caught up in them, which is a healthy spot for me to be in.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21322373 - 02/24/15 01:45 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

As for materialist views on spirituality, I don't think that the belief that consciousness exists in the brain would need to exclude the potentiality for valuing ecstatic experiences, including psychedelics,




The idea that 'consciousness' is a product of the brain is the central tenet of materialist belief.
For example they believe that nature is not sentient, and the whole meaning of ecstasy is the awareness that all is consciousness---but by that I do mean that there is no material, because that would be idealism which is the inverse of materialism and also dualistic




I disagree, for me such ecstasy can be characterized by drifting in an expansive inner space, feeling free of time, a sensation of melting and merging with externality, experiencing visions, and feeling euphoric.  Nothing about such altered states of consciousness dictate realization of anything, except perhaps humbleness to how incomprehensible consciousness and reality is.

While I don't pretend to know the meaning of ecstasy, I know that such ecstasy is important to me.  Many of the travails of every day life seem pretty absurd in the face of it, and I really no longer do feel so caught up in them, which is a healthy spot for me to be in.




I like to pay attention to terms being used, so --ecstasy:
Quote:


Quote:

“The ancient Greek ancestor of our word ecstasy is ekstasis, formed of ek (outside or beyond) and stasis (“standing, stature” or “standing still, stationariness” or “the place in which one stands or should stand, position, posture, station”) (Liddle). Thomas Conley understands the stasis portion somewhat differently, “either as ‘strife’ or as ‘immobility,’ as in the English word static” (Conley 32). Holm offers a singular account of an earlier translation of ekstasis, “removing oneself from a given place” and suggests that an extended meaning “implies that the ego is no longer in the physical frame” (Holm 7). Mordell claims the best translation is closer to “to make stand out” (Mordell 18). A less controversial translation might be “outside position.” Ekstasis is not antistasis. It is not the opposite of stasis or the opposite position, but, instead, it is a position that is off the spectrum of position.


here




I like the definition I have emphasized. it means for me that ec-stasy is beyond stasis. So how do I mean stasis? Example a rigid way of thinking and feeling. So say you ARE a materialist. This will mean that you divide 'inner' from 'outer'---the former is consciousness and intelligent, the latter is random and unconscious, and insentient

When I was 15, and way before I did any reading of deep ideas. But I was just a kid, but I felt totally connected with nature when tripping, and these LSD experiences undid or resolved what school and the culture had been doing to me; dulling me to the natural world and getting me obsessed about big cities, and progress etc. However, with inspiration from LSD, I began seeing and feeling nature as sacred and magical. Totally alive! That to me is real meaning of ecstasy or spirituality. it is seeing that inner and outer are a dynamic process.
Now, you can understand that intellectually, but the experiencing of it is ecstasy. That is my understanding and experience of ecstasy.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21322974 - 02/24/15 04:27 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Well, I don't think that you get to be the arbiter of what amounts to a rigid way of thinking.  I think there are plenty of people who think that consciousness is a product of the brain, yet they experience every bit as much 'flow' as you, and I've witnessed it with atheist musicians, who have been incredibly down to earth too.  I think the whole idea that spiritualists have the inside dope on ecstasy is divisive and ridiculous to anyone who values diversity in this world.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21326354 - 02/25/15 04:33 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

it is rigid, because it is believing in the myth of materialism. That I question that doesn't make me a 'spiritualist'. That is dualistic thinking


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21326419 - 02/25/15 05:20 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
it is rigid, because it is believing in the myth of materialism. That I question that doesn't make me a 'spiritualist'. That is dualistic thinking





I didn't hear a question, but rather an assertion that those who disagree with you are rigid for 'believing in the myth of materialism'.  I certainly didn't define you as a spiritualist for questioning, as I never intended ecstasy to be an either or thing, belonging to one camp or the other...  Nonetheless, I'm pretty sure it was you who equated ecstasy to spirituality. 

Anyways, I see no reason that consciousness as a product of the brain can't be defined by operations performed, rather than by statements of "is-ness"... So one could say "when brain functioning stops, one appears to lose consciousness to me".  That is not defining things in an overly rigid way, as in brain activity is consciousness, but rather that from what one's observed, if it's that one no longer appears to be conscious when brain activity has stopped :shrug:.

For me, I'd like to go on a vacation where where materialists sit with shamans, and everyone drops acid and has a big ass party in the woods and learns from each other, rather than fight with each other about whose version of reality is really 'Real'.  That's my idea of a psychedelic scene.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Offlinezzripz
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Registered: 12/23/08
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Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21328871 - 02/25/15 05:33 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

hmm well a person who has an NDE will not say that will they?

From my experience I think it is more people who are spiritually open who are willing to be open and include than the materialist...Though I appreciate you reaching out


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21328901 - 02/25/15 05:40 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

this is interesting. Just found it today...

Snake Medicine: How Shamanism Heals


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21331031 - 02/26/15 01:18 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
hmm well a person who has an NDE will not say that will they?




I don't know what you mean?  In my experience, the handful of people I've witnessed who have had NDEs will half give their account, ya know, kind of like a 'trip report'.... I'm interested in that, but then there's also their conclusion.... that "God really is Real" or what have you.  I'm more interested in the report than the conclusion, that means I'm more interested in what's possible in terms of subjective experience and altered states of consciousness, but I seldom see people integrate the experiences in a way that isn't dogmatic or makes them live in a more genuinely free way on a day to day basis.

Quote:

From my experience I think it is more people who are spiritually open who are willing to be open and include than the materialist...Though I appreciate you reaching out





Noted, but I don't really see it that way.  The people I've witnessed be more open and willing to include have less of a vested interest in spirituality or materialism, but more in humanism.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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