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Offlinezzripz
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Registered: 12/23/08
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Last seen: 3 years, 13 days
Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: cheeshcat]
    #21319133 - 02/23/15 08:05 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Good I will check it tomorrow. It's night here on the other side of the world. Amazing world this :smile:


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21319168 - 02/23/15 08:12 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

cheeshcat said:
Oh and zzripz don't argue with a fool they bring you down totheir level and beat you with experience




tis a bit hard though when they got trigger happy fingies over the ban button :eek:




:archiebunker:  Pretty sure this was deemed off-topic forum drama that was supposed to stop.


Quote:

zzripz said:
In the 80s because of that terrible woman Thatcher, the ONLY books you could get that mentioned psychedelics were RAW books, and I read a few. He was an interesting character, but...he was a psychedelic transhumanist, and he tried to undermine conspiracy theory by mocking it--though funnily enough that book I never read but have read lots from it online
But I of course agree with him likening fundy materialism to fundy religiousm.
I sense that materialist feel a threat when their beliefs are challenged. That they interpret 'spiritual' to mean the patriarchal meaning of that term. However, even when you mention a more indigenous view they will invariably say 'so, go and live in caves and stop using computers!'




I don't think R.A.W. mocked conspiracy theorists.  He certainly entertained them far more than most people, but he had a reasonable understanding of psychology and the ability for humans to twist facts to fit their own preconceptions.

As for materialist views on spirituality, I don't think that the belief that consciousness exists in the brain would need to exclude the potentiality for valuing ecstatic experiences, including psychedelics, drumming, and dancing, which are things which at least some indigenous people have been keenly aware of promoting health and well being.  I think we have a lot to learn from some of the 4th world, which was historically first, regarding the rift between human beings and nature, and what can be done to bring balance to both the ecosystem and our human minds, without having to stop using computers and live in the jungle :shrug:.  So I agree.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Offlinecheeshcat
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Registered: 06/24/13
Posts: 129
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21320536 - 02/24/15 01:08 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Oh ok cool. It's kind of folk shoegaze if you've ever heard. Love night time, it's transitioning to Winter here. It surely is :smile:


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Offlinezzripz
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Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 3 years, 13 days
Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21321031 - 02/24/15 04:37 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

As for materialist views on spirituality, I don't think that the belief that consciousness exists in the brain would need to exclude the potentiality for valuing ecstatic experiences, including psychedelics,




The idea that 'consciousness' is a product of the brain is the central tenet of materialist belief.
For example they believe that nature is not sentient, and the whole meaning of ecstasy is the awareness that all is consciousness---but by that I do mean that there is no material, because that would be idealism which is the inverse of materialism and also dualistic


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InvisibleWhite Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21321608 - 02/24/15 10:16 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
The idea that 'consciousness' is a product of the brain is the central tenet of materialist belief.







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Offlinezzripz
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Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: White Beard]
    #21321707 - 02/24/15 10:45 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

wow...zerrrr what a refute!!!:congrats:


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InvisibleWhite Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21321797 - 02/24/15 11:06 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Consciousness being material is not the central tenant of materialism. Everything is comprised of matter would likely be the central tenant. That does include consciousness, but to say that fact is the central tenant is not true. It's no more central than 'toast is made of matter'.


Edited by White Beard (02/24/15 11:13 AM)


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
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Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 10,848
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21321816 - 02/24/15 11:11 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

As for materialist views on spirituality, I don't think that the belief that consciousness exists in the brain would need to exclude the potentiality for valuing ecstatic experiences, including psychedelics,




The idea that 'consciousness' is a product of the brain is the central tenet of materialist belief.
For example they believe that nature is not sentient, and the whole meaning of ecstasy is the awareness that all is consciousness---but by that I do mean that there is no material, because that would be idealism which is the inverse of materialism and also dualistic




I disagree, for me such ecstasy can be characterized by drifting in an expansive inner space, feeling free of time, a sensation of melting and merging with externality, experiencing visions, and feeling euphoric.  Nothing about such altered states of consciousness dictate realization of anything, except perhaps humbleness to how incomprehensible consciousness and reality is.

While I don't pretend to know the meaning of ecstasy, I know that such ecstasy is important to me.  Many of the travails of every day life seem pretty absurd in the face of it, and I really no longer do feel so caught up in them, which is a healthy spot for me to be in.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Offlinezzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 3 years, 13 days
Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21322373 - 02/24/15 01:45 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

As for materialist views on spirituality, I don't think that the belief that consciousness exists in the brain would need to exclude the potentiality for valuing ecstatic experiences, including psychedelics,




The idea that 'consciousness' is a product of the brain is the central tenet of materialist belief.
For example they believe that nature is not sentient, and the whole meaning of ecstasy is the awareness that all is consciousness---but by that I do mean that there is no material, because that would be idealism which is the inverse of materialism and also dualistic




I disagree, for me such ecstasy can be characterized by drifting in an expansive inner space, feeling free of time, a sensation of melting and merging with externality, experiencing visions, and feeling euphoric.  Nothing about such altered states of consciousness dictate realization of anything, except perhaps humbleness to how incomprehensible consciousness and reality is.

While I don't pretend to know the meaning of ecstasy, I know that such ecstasy is important to me.  Many of the travails of every day life seem pretty absurd in the face of it, and I really no longer do feel so caught up in them, which is a healthy spot for me to be in.




I like to pay attention to terms being used, so --ecstasy:
Quote:


Quote:

“The ancient Greek ancestor of our word ecstasy is ekstasis, formed of ek (outside or beyond) and stasis (“standing, stature” or “standing still, stationariness” or “the place in which one stands or should stand, position, posture, station”) (Liddle). Thomas Conley understands the stasis portion somewhat differently, “either as ‘strife’ or as ‘immobility,’ as in the English word static” (Conley 32). Holm offers a singular account of an earlier translation of ekstasis, “removing oneself from a given place” and suggests that an extended meaning “implies that the ego is no longer in the physical frame” (Holm 7). Mordell claims the best translation is closer to “to make stand out” (Mordell 18). A less controversial translation might be “outside position.” Ekstasis is not antistasis. It is not the opposite of stasis or the opposite position, but, instead, it is a position that is off the spectrum of position.


here




I like the definition I have emphasized. it means for me that ec-stasy is beyond stasis. So how do I mean stasis? Example a rigid way of thinking and feeling. So say you ARE a materialist. This will mean that you divide 'inner' from 'outer'---the former is consciousness and intelligent, the latter is random and unconscious, and insentient

When I was 15, and way before I did any reading of deep ideas. But I was just a kid, but I felt totally connected with nature when tripping, and these LSD experiences undid or resolved what school and the culture had been doing to me; dulling me to the natural world and getting me obsessed about big cities, and progress etc. However, with inspiration from LSD, I began seeing and feeling nature as sacred and magical. Totally alive! That to me is real meaning of ecstasy or spirituality. it is seeing that inner and outer are a dynamic process.
Now, you can understand that intellectually, but the experiencing of it is ecstasy. That is my understanding and experience of ecstasy.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21322974 - 02/24/15 04:27 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Well, I don't think that you get to be the arbiter of what amounts to a rigid way of thinking.  I think there are plenty of people who think that consciousness is a product of the brain, yet they experience every bit as much 'flow' as you, and I've witnessed it with atheist musicians, who have been incredibly down to earth too.  I think the whole idea that spiritualists have the inside dope on ecstasy is divisive and ridiculous to anyone who values diversity in this world.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Offlinezzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 3 years, 13 days
Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21326354 - 02/25/15 04:33 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

it is rigid, because it is believing in the myth of materialism. That I question that doesn't make me a 'spiritualist'. That is dualistic thinking


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
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Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 10,848
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21326419 - 02/25/15 05:20 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
it is rigid, because it is believing in the myth of materialism. That I question that doesn't make me a 'spiritualist'. That is dualistic thinking





I didn't hear a question, but rather an assertion that those who disagree with you are rigid for 'believing in the myth of materialism'.  I certainly didn't define you as a spiritualist for questioning, as I never intended ecstasy to be an either or thing, belonging to one camp or the other...  Nonetheless, I'm pretty sure it was you who equated ecstasy to spirituality. 

Anyways, I see no reason that consciousness as a product of the brain can't be defined by operations performed, rather than by statements of "is-ness"... So one could say "when brain functioning stops, one appears to lose consciousness to me".  That is not defining things in an overly rigid way, as in brain activity is consciousness, but rather that from what one's observed, if it's that one no longer appears to be conscious when brain activity has stopped :shrug:.

For me, I'd like to go on a vacation where where materialists sit with shamans, and everyone drops acid and has a big ass party in the woods and learns from each other, rather than fight with each other about whose version of reality is really 'Real'.  That's my idea of a psychedelic scene.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Offlinezzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 3 years, 13 days
Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #21328871 - 02/25/15 05:33 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

hmm well a person who has an NDE will not say that will they?

From my experience I think it is more people who are spiritually open who are willing to be open and include than the materialist...Though I appreciate you reaching out


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Offlinezzripz
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Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 3 years, 13 days
Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21328901 - 02/25/15 05:40 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

this is interesting. Just found it today...

Snake Medicine: How Shamanism Heals


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
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Registered: 04/06/00
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21331031 - 02/26/15 01:18 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
hmm well a person who has an NDE will not say that will they?




I don't know what you mean?  In my experience, the handful of people I've witnessed who have had NDEs will half give their account, ya know, kind of like a 'trip report'.... I'm interested in that, but then there's also their conclusion.... that "God really is Real" or what have you.  I'm more interested in the report than the conclusion, that means I'm more interested in what's possible in terms of subjective experience and altered states of consciousness, but I seldom see people integrate the experiences in a way that isn't dogmatic or makes them live in a more genuinely free way on a day to day basis.

Quote:

From my experience I think it is more people who are spiritually open who are willing to be open and include than the materialist...Though I appreciate you reaching out





Noted, but I don't really see it that way.  The people I've witnessed be more open and willing to include have less of a vested interest in spirituality or materialism, but more in humanism.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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