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Offlinezzripz
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Registered: 12/23/08
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Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 3 years, 10 days
what does 'materialism' even mean?
    #21311991 - 02/22/15 10:29 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

This civilization is supposed to abide by a philosophy of materialism. This means that the belief is, which is claimed to be supported by materialistic science that all reality is matter or material, and even consciousness (which is even considered illusory by certain disciplines of science like neuroscience) is said to be a product of the brain

Any talk of 'spirituality' in this culture is therefore considered to be delusional, the 'hallucination' of the brain which is 'matter'.

So what are you thoughts on this big question?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21312000 - 02/22/15 10:37 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
This civilization is supposed to abide by a philosophy of materialism. This means that the belief is, which is claimed to be supported by materialistic science that all reality is matter or material, and even consciousness (which is even considered illusory by certain disciplines of science like neuroscience) is said to be a product of the brain

Any talk of 'spirituality' in this culture is therefore considered to be delusional, the 'hallucination' of the brain which is 'matter'.

So what are you thoughts on this big question?





Sounds like a huge bias on your part.  Science does not consider the idea of spirit delusional. It considers it and looks for evidence to support it and finds little to nothing to work with so it remains an unproven hypothesis.

You really sound a lot like the people you are always railing about.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinecbub
it
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Posts: 1,412
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: Icelander]
    #21312252 - 02/22/15 12:16 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

As I see it, the guy presented the essence of materialism - the topic he wishes to discuss. Hardly a reason to focus and judge his traits. This is very childish for a man of your age and experience and clarity. (touché)


--------------------
It's fine.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: cbub]
    #21312269 - 02/22/15 12:20 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Well I don't see it that way and I do see what you did there and so discount it.  If you can't walk your talk then your words don't mean much at all. 

As I disagree with what the "essence" of materialism is. Which I pointed out

Maybe this isn't something you are good at but I tend to follow people here and remember their other posts and if they relate to what they are currently saying.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleWhite Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21312302 - 02/22/15 12:30 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

For me materialism helps me understand cause and effect. We live in a world where stuff interacts with other stuff through forces. Stuff is generally called 'matter'. It is useful because we can predict how matter will behave given certain circumstances. e.g. I need to put gas in my car or else it wont start.


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Offlinecbub
it
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: Icelander]
    #21312412 - 02/22/15 01:00 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Materialism assumes matter is primary and we came out of it as a product of it.
That's quite the definition of it and disagreeing won't change it.

No, following people on here isn't something I'm good at and feel no pull to change it.
By all means, go ahead putting labels on people's foreheads, but do not draw pride from great wisdom in the same breath.. while you talk about walking the talk.


--------------------
It's fine.


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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21312640 - 02/22/15 01:46 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I think it means whatever you want it to mean, to me it implies strictly being aware of physical things that you can tangibly observe and measure, there are many forms of materialism, some extremely ignorant but also it's good there are people in the world that devote their lives to progessing materialist knowledge as it can potentially create a better standard of living for everyone, but it hasn't done so yet by itself so it can obviously not be called true intelligence, it's the begining of intelligence though because we're weighing and measuring parts of the universe not just as human beings trying to make use of it all but also in an attempt to understand ourself as the universe, understanding ourself inevitably leads beyond all materialism to awareness

Through materialism it's blatantly not proovable that awareness is immaterial but it is still logical and proovable through direct experience, immaterialism and that direct experience can't help but have spiritual implications

People may think you are delusional or that spirituality is a hallucenation, but people themselves are a delusion and a hallucenation


--------------------


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InvisibleSun King
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21313626 - 02/22/15 05:39 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
This civilization is supposed to abide by a philosophy of materialism. This means that the belief is, which is claimed to be supported by materialistic science that all reality is matter or material, and even consciousness (which is even considered illusory by certain disciplines of science like neuroscience) is said to be a product of the brain

Any talk of 'spirituality' in this culture is therefore considered to be delusional, the 'hallucination' of the brain which is 'matter'.

So what are you thoughts on this big question?




All those materialist Christians hate talk of spirituality.

:derpyouverymuch:


--------------------


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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #21314884 - 02/22/15 10:30 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
This civilization is supposed to abide by a philosophy of materialism. This means that the belief is, which is claimed to be supported by materialistic science that all reality is matter or material, and even consciousness (which is even considered illusory by certain disciplines of science like neuroscience) is said to be a product of the brain

Any talk of 'spirituality' in this culture is therefore considered to be delusional, the 'hallucination' of the brain which is 'matter'.

So what are you thoughts on this big question?





Sounds like a huge bias on your part.  Science does not consider the idea of spirit delusional. It considers it and looks for evidence to support it and finds little to nothing to work with so it remains an unproven hypothesis.

You really sound a lot like the people you are always railing about.





Yeah, you're right but the problem is that many people in science take this absense of evidence, as evidence of absense and reject spiritual ideas and concepts because they can't work with them in the way they are used to working with ideas and concepts.

The radical, revolutionary thing about what the sages have to sya, is that they say the ultimate truth ultimately goes beyond what can be percieved through the human sensory apparatuses. Scientists on the other hand, naively concern themselves only with what can be percieved through the senses. THey assume that because it can be seen it must be more important than the unseen. What a stupid, naive and silly assumption.

Obviosly there is an "inner eye" (for lack of a better term) which "sees" what is percieved through the senses. Just close yer eyes for one moment. Seeing has ceased but somethin' is still there which "sees" the lack of seeing. What the hell is this and why aren't scientists interest in finding out? Even the few scientists who might take an interest in this, will always end up trying to describe in terms of what can be sensed (ei, it is some function of the brain). Well, where did you get the idea of a brain from mr. scientist? Oh that's right, you SAW it. So, obviously, the inner eye comes first, before anything else. You may also notice, you can't get rid of your inner eye. You can pluck out your normal eyes. You can even have parts of your brain removed. But let me one of you folks separate yourself from your inner eye. I tell you it cannot be done. Where it goes, you go.

What has this to do with anything? Well I believe it was Miester Echkart who said, the eye through which I see God is the same eye through which God sees me. The Christian mystics (and mystics from other traditions as well) clearly understood that seeing was indeed more fundamental than what was seen.

THis is a truth that is almost completely lost to our modern culture. Everyone, even most of the smartest scientists, are all focusing on what they see, ignoring the obvious question of who sees it?


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
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Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: Deviate]
    #21316160 - 02/23/15 08:34 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Everyone Thinking That His
Burden Is The Heaviest
Who Feels It Knows It
Lord


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Offlinezzripz
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Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 3 years, 10 days
Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #21316375 - 02/23/15 10:07 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

The place here which pushes the materialist philosophy the most is the '
Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology' which is also supposed to include
Quote:

epistemology, ethics, metaphysics/ontology, the psychology of mind and the sociological study of cultural and individual behavior.




However you are met there with a belligerent attitude against anyone daring to speak of spirituality. They try and impose THEIR--get ready for a BIG word--epistemology at you which is defined as the theory of knowledge, especially with regard to its methods, validity, and scope, and the distinction between justified belief and opinion.

As well as this these materialists tend to support their own. So if anyone there is open to spirituality, they can find themselves trolled, and insulted BUT the mods there--being of the same materialist mindset--will be blind to it. In this way they can defend their little clique from any people with spiritual views hanging around too long. I have been particularly banned from there quite a few times now.

materialists also want to CONFINE topics according to their epistemology. So say you needed to include politics, or--as they choose to call any dissent from offical conspiracy theories--'conspiracy theory', and any other interconnecting subjects you can even be banned outright for THAT!
Here is the reason I got for the latest ban:

Quote:

Offending Post: Re: The Technological Singularity - care to philosophize?
Infraction description: Posts which conflict with our forum guidelines or community standards are not allowed.
Ban details: The PS&P forum is a debate orientated forum and you're refusing to debate in good faith, answer direct questions if they challenge your beliefs, and primarily argue with your own words and think for yourself, rather than spamming links to do your arguing for you.  You've derailed a topic on technology with everything from blaming the Jews for 9/11 to Christians & Satanists, and your history shows that you've been warned about these things before.

Please take this ban to heart. We keep a log of all infractions and repeat offenders may be permanently banned from the entire board.
If you have any questions, you should contact CosmicJoke directly.




So they take MY inclusions of interconneting subjects in an out of centext list, and blame people for simpley occasionally linking to an article or video. Yet trolls there --who support the materialist belief--post absolutely goofy posts, silly pics, trolling, off-subject and THAT it appears is OK.

I am here just pointing out these materialists irrational behaviour.

And of course the PRIVATE threat that if you don't jump to their tune they have the power to ban you from the WHOLE of the fourm, which they did last time! And these people are against fundamentalist religion...?:lolwut:


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
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Registered: 10/31/04
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21316547 - 02/23/15 10:59 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

You seem like a bit of a trouble maker.  Did you get sent to the principals office much in school?

:lol:


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Offlinezzripz
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Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 3 years, 10 days
Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #21316569 - 02/23/15 11:05 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I was strapped twice. They would take a running sprint and strap your upturned hands. Schools are evil places and my spirit saw through it
Did you do well :rofl:

And I have to ask this: Are you a materialist? :strokebeard:


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21316592 - 02/23/15 11:10 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
I was strapped twice. They would take a running sprint and strap your upturned hands. Schools are evil places and my spirit saw through it
Did you do well :rofl:

And I have to ask this: Are you a materialist? :strokebeard:




It's Mind Over Matter
I Don't Mind
Because You Don't Matter

:shrug:


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Offlinezzripz
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Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 3 years, 10 days
Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #21316687 - 02/23/15 11:37 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
I was strapped twice. They would take a running sprint and strap your upturned hands. Schools are evil places and my spirit saw through it
Did you do well :rofl:

And I have to ask this: Are you a materialist? :strokebeard:




It's Mind Over Matter
I Don't Mind
Because You Don't Matter

:shrug:




Suppose I could ban you --IF I were a mod and it was over in the 'philosophy forum'--because you have totally evaded what I directly asked you
Quote:

refusing to debate in good faith, answer direct questions


So, I will try again:

Are you a materialist?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21316716 - 02/23/15 11:48 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I like this quote (by a physicist) on the subject of materialism:


"The notion of a thing is thus seen to be an abstraction, in which it is conceptually separated from its infinite background and substructure. Actually, however, a thing does not and could not exist apart from the context from which it has thus been conceptually abstracted. And therefore the world is not made by putting together the various "things" in it, but, rather, these things are only approximately what we find on analysis in certain contexts and under suitable conditions." --David Bohm


--------------------
Heaven, n. Copulation without culmination.

                                                                    --A. Bierce


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz] * 3
    #21316744 - 02/23/15 11:56 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

zzripz, this isn't ps&p. Please keep your personal drama with that forum out of this one. This forum is about spirituality and mysticism. I have seen several posts now where you are trying to bring your personal woes from ps&p into this forum.

For complaints about the way a forum is run, file a support ticket. For complaints about moderation, post in the moderator issues and complaints forum.

Any more personal issues about the way ps&p is run posted here will earn you a ban as this is not the appropriate forum for such discussion. You have been warned.


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinezzripz
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Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: Kickle]
    #21316834 - 02/23/15 12:13 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
zzripz, this isn't ps&p. Please keep your personal drama with that forum out of this one. This forum is about spirituality and mysticism. I have seen several posts now where you are trying to bring your personal woes from ps&p into this forum.

For complaints about the way a forum is run, file a support ticket. For complaints about moderation, post in the moderator issues and complaints forum.

Any more personal issues about the way ps&p is run posted here will earn you a ban as this is not the appropriate forum for such discussion. You have been warned.




OMFG so you are warning me now. Please explain why a subject about materialism cannot include an experience with materialists?

And btw I have filed a ticket, but see no harm mentioning about this though obviously you do. So can I ask you then. Are you a materialist?

I do not ban people. I may ignore them, but I do not ban them from using A forum or a whole website. That is a big difference, and I am trying to highlight that type of mentality that I have encountered which I think is appropriate.

This forum is supposed give more freedom to explore issues without criticism--surely that is what real spirit is all about?


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: zzripz]
    #21316899 - 02/23/15 12:24 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I am not a materialist, no. Nor do I understand why my personal belief has anything to do with your personal grudges.

You bringing outside drama in is not acceptable. It wouldn't matter what forum it was from. If someone banned you in mushroom cultivation and you went on a rant about how the posters in the cultivation forum clearly aren't cultivating for spiritual ends, I would give you the same warning. It's not appropriate for this forum.


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineKickleM
A Hopeless Hope
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Re: what does 'materialism' even mean? [Re: Deviate]
    #21317110 - 02/23/15 01:07 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
This civilization is supposed to abide by a philosophy of materialism. This means that the belief is, which is claimed to be supported by materialistic science that all reality is matter or material, and even consciousness (which is even considered illusory by certain disciplines of science like neuroscience) is said to be a product of the brain

Any talk of 'spirituality' in this culture is therefore considered to be delusional, the 'hallucination' of the brain which is 'matter'.

So what are you thoughts on this big question?





Sounds like a huge bias on your part.  Science does not consider the idea of spirit delusional. It considers it and looks for evidence to support it and finds little to nothing to work with so it remains an unproven hypothesis.

You really sound a lot like the people you are always railing about.





Yeah, you're right but the problem is that many people in science take this absense of evidence, as evidence of absense and reject spiritual ideas and concepts because they can't work with them in the way they are used to working with ideas and concepts.

The radical, revolutionary thing about what the sages have to sya, is that they say the ultimate truth ultimately goes beyond what can be percieved through the human sensory apparatuses. Scientists on the other hand, naively concern themselves only with what can be percieved through the senses. THey assume that because it can be seen it must be more important than the unseen. What a stupid, naive and silly assumption.

Obviosly there is an "inner eye" (for lack of a better term) which "sees" what is percieved through the senses. Just close yer eyes for one moment. Seeing has ceased but somethin' is still there which "sees" the lack of seeing. What the hell is this and why aren't scientists interest in finding
Tr out? Even the few scientists who might take an interest in this, will always end up trying to describe in terms of what can be sensed (ei, it is some function of the brain). Well, where did you get the idea of a brain from mr. scientist? Oh that's right, you SAW it. So, obviously, the inner eye comes first, before anything else. You may also notice, you can't get rid of your inner eye. You can pluck out your normal eyes. You can even have parts of your brain removed. But let me one of you folks separate yourself from your inner eye. I tell you it cannot be done. Where it goes, you go.

What has this to do with anything? Well I believe it was Miester Echkart who said, the eye through which I see God is the same eye through which God sees me. The Christian mystics (and mystics from other traditions as well) clearly understood that seeing was indeed more fundamental than what was seen.

THis is a truth that is almost completely lost to our modern culture. Everyone, even most of the smartest scientists, are all focusing on what they see, ignoring the obvious question of who sees it?




I wish it were so cut and dry. I went to school for psychology (the study of the psyche, originally greek for soul) and ended up taking several courses on neuroanatomy, neuropsychology, and trends in neuroscience. No one in that field that I have run across, including the professors, were certain of anything. It's a fledgling field, compared to everything except the computer sciences. It's a field of exploration and none of it is even close to being in stone.

Here's an example of something taught. A person may be speaking in a way that is incredibly difficult to understand. Prior to the discovery of Wernicke, these individuals would likely have been considered quite insane. They speak like anyone else, the rhythm is right, grammatical pauses are present, and there is intonation. The only problem is, the words make nada sense. Instead of saying, "Please pass the salt" it may look more like, "Fire like sky geeble". The intended amount of words come out, but rarely one's which make sense.

So what you may say? Well here's where it gets tricky. People with damage to Wernicke's area often show no signs of being aware that what they are saying is incorrect. They can't fathom why other people are confused by their speech. This is referred to as anosognosia. It appears more commonly than you might think when brain damage is in play. This lack of awareness about what is materializing in the world.

Now does this mean that consciousness occurs in the brain? Nope. The only individuals I have heard make that claim are those outside the field. But for those within the field, they want to understand. Theories come up all the time in all sorts of forms. Yes, the theory that consciousness is a byproduct of the brain exists. Along with the brain as an antenna and many others. There are many ways to explain why damage to the brain results in something like anosognosia. But the field of neurology is actually quite interested in exploring that question rather than making black and white statements from guesswork. So it tests theories. To date there is no empirical explanation for consciousness.

So now one might say, well then because there is no empirical explanation for conscioussness, consciousness must not be empirical. But why make that assumption? So many accuse scientists of lacking the drive to explore, but IMO it's more often than not the accusers that have made up their mind. It's easy to make claims, it's difficult not to know. And in the case of neuroscience there is a ton that is simply unknown. That's why it is attracting so many from the field of psychology. It's a frontier for understanding the psyche in a way that we have not been able to before.


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