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Le_Canard said:
Hey fracking is great. It gives us access to precious gas and and oil. But guess what, the fracking solution also gets into the groundwater. It ain't all just sand and water, though. They use some pretty toxic stuff in it too to increase the efficiency of the process. So if you like having to drink toxic water and getting cancer, so what? At least you'll have money in the bank, and that's all that counts.

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Yea everyone in North Dakota is dead from drinking toxic water . This just more scare tactics to hurt the people working in the oil and gas industry.

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koods said:
Are fucking kidding me? Even the oil companies admit that fracking causes earthquakes, specifically the waste water injections.

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Large areas of the United States long considered geologically stable with little or no detected seismicity have recently become seismically active. The increase in earthquake activity began in the mid-continent starting in 2001 (1) and has continued to rise. In 2014, the rate of occurrence of earthquakes with magnitudes (M) of 3 and greater in Oklahoma exceeded that in California (see the figure). This elevated activity includes larger earthquakes, several with M > 5, that have caused significant damage (2, 3). To a large extent, the increasing rate of earthquakes in the mid-continent is due to fluid-injection activities used in modern energy production (1, 4, 5). We explore potential avenues for mitigating effects of induced seismicity. Although the United States is our focus here, Canada, China, the UK, and others confront similar problems associated with oil and gas production, whereas quakes induced by geothermal activities affect Switzerland, Germany, and others.

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Gilgamesh18 said:

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koods said:
Are fucking kidding me? Even the oil companies admit that fracking causes earthquakes, specifically the waste water injections.

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Source? Why isn't North dakota decimated from earthquakes. I am sure the industry takes many safety precautions.

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Gilgamesh18 said:
Doobie if you have nothing to offer the debate please don't post in this thread.

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Gilgamesh18 said:
"Fracking causes small earthquakes, but they are almost always too small to be a safety concern."
http://www.usgs.gov/faq/categories/9833/3428

Just as I suspected a few small earthquakes and then the environmentalist hysteria begins. I think a few small quakes are a small price to pay for providing stable middle class jobs.

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twighead said:
It'll bounce back soon enough, guaranteed. Would be nice if the 'up down' 'winter summer' oil cycle skipped a year though, would be neat to go on a good cheap road trip this summer.

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Gilgamesh18 said:
How bad were the quakes though? If there just little minor blips I don't see what the fuss is about. Far more important to keep people employed and have the economy keep humming.

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qman said:

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twighead said:
It'll bounce back soon enough, guaranteed. Would be nice if the 'up down' 'winter summer' oil cycle skipped a year though, would be neat to go on a good cheap road trip this summer.

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You don't start projects that are not profitable on the premise that "It'll bounce back soon enough". 

The price of oil has come down over -50% in the last 6 months, that's based on growing supply in a world of weak global demand, and no one is cutting production despite the decline in the price.

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Sure, I would assume they wouldn't build new at the moment - but honestly the prices are being kept artificially low at the moment, as they were artificially high earlier

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Le_Canard said:
Pfft! You guys care nothing for the middle class. Sure it provides jobs, but the oil and gas will run out. Then what? All we have left now is a toxic wasteland. You sell economic prosperity to all, yet ultimately only the very few are left with profit, while everybody else gets misery and death.

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Precisely, I haven't seen a cent of redwood logging profit from 150 years ago, yet 95% OF THE MOST BADASS FOREST ON THE PLANET IS GONE FOREVER AND WE DONT GET SHIT FOR IT

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Until now, North Texas has been one of the least likely places in the country to have an earthquake.

But after the Dallas area suffered a series of more than 120 quakes since 2008, the U.S. Geological Survey is re-evaluating the metroplex’s “seismic hazard” — or the risk of experiencing earthquakes.

This year, for the first time, the USGS will include quakes believed to have been caused by human activity in its National Seismic Hazard Map, which engineers use to write and revise building codes, and which insurers use to set rates.

The map predicts where future earthquakes will occur, how often they will occur and how strongly they will shake the ground.

The USGS probably will dial up the earthquake risk for the Dallas-Fort Worth area, though the increase may be small, said Mark Petersen, chief of the agency’s National Seismic Hazard Project in Golden, Colo.

Scientists have linked two local earthquake clusters with wastewater injection wells, where companies dispose of fluids used in the hydraulic fracturing process. One cluster began in 2008 near Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport. The second occurred near Cleburne in 2009.

Researchers are investigating two more recent clusters: one in Azle and another in Irving that continued Saturday with a 2.2-magnitude quake that was reported about 8 p.m.

Petersen said the updated version of the map would be published before the end of the year.

The increase in tremors, which is also happening in Oklahoma, Colorado and other parts of the country, is changing the way seismologists think about earthquakes.

“We’re putting a lot of effort into understanding this,” Petersen said.

Between 2010 and 2013, people living in the central and eastern U.S. felt five times as many quakes per year, on average, as they did between 1970 and 2000. Scientists have linked many of these earthquakes to human activities, including parts of the oil and gas production process.

While larger quakes are unlikely in North Texas, scientists can’t rule out the possibility. In 2011, a 5.7-magnitude temblor struck near injection wells in Oklahoma, causing widespread damage.

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Le_Canard said:
I'm sad to report to you that they have all the ethics and morals of a starving hyena.

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Sounds like the government to me.

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koods said:
Coping with earthquakes induced by fluid injection

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Large areas of the United States long considered geologically stable with little or no detected seismicity have recently become seismically active. The increase in earthquake activity began in the mid-continent starting in 2001 (1) and has continued to rise. In 2014, the rate of occurrence of earthquakes with magnitudes (M) of 3 and greater in Oklahoma exceeded that in California (see the figure). This elevated activity includes larger earthquakes, several with M > 5, that have caused significant damage (2, 3). To a large extent, the increasing rate of earthquakes in the mid-continent is due to fluid-injection activities used in modern energy production (1, 4, 5). We explore potential avenues for mitigating effects of induced seismicity. Although the United States is our focus here, Canada, China, the UK, and others confront similar problems associated with oil and gas production, whereas quakes induced by geothermal activities affect Switzerland, Germany, and others.

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Until the oil and has industry puts up money to pay for the damage they cause to infrastructure and property, they should not be allowed to continue their operations. They need to take responsibility for their actions, not just profits.

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koods said:
Well they don't. And the small ones add up. Maybe twenty years from now when you home value has plummeted because the floors aren't flat and the walls are full of cracks. What a load of bullshit. Everyone with a dozen miles of their fracking operation pays the price and they take their profits. Do you understand why people think these companies are evil?

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zappaisgod said:
Something all of you who do not live in NY probably don't realize.  Upstate NY, say from the point at which the commuter lines to NYC end, is very poor.  They are utterly fucked by being shackled with rules that are tailored to NYC.  Fracking is safe.  It has been used for decades and all the alarmists nitwits, like that asshole with the flaming tap water documentary, are full fo shit.  Do you know another reason oil and gas prices are going down?  Fracking.  Frack here, frack now

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The Doobie Dude said:
Zappa you're wrong and full of love and cuddles get out you live in TX now.  You lost your say.

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zappaisgod said:

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koods said:
Coping with earthquakes induced by fluid injection

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Large areas of the United States long considered geologically stable with little or no detected seismicity have recently become seismically active. The increase in earthquake activity began in the mid-continent starting in 2001 (1) and has continued to rise. In 2014, the rate of occurrence of earthquakes with magnitudes (M) of 3 and greater in Oklahoma exceeded that in California (see the figure). This elevated activity includes larger earthquakes, several with M > 5, that have caused significant damage (2, 3). To a large extent, the increasing rate of earthquakes in the mid-continent is due to fluid-injection activities used in modern energy production (1, 4, 5). We explore potential avenues for mitigating effects of induced seismicity. Although the United States is our focus here, Canada, China, the UK, and others confront similar problems associated with oil and gas production, whereas quakes induced by geothermal activities affect Switzerland, Germany, and others.

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Until the oil and has industry puts up money to pay for the damage they cause to infrastructure and property, they should not be allowed to continue their operations. They need to take responsibility for their actions, not just profits.

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"Read the full text" is not available

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zappaisgod said:
Something all of you who do not live in NY probably don't realize.  Upstate NY, say from the point at which the commuter lines to NYC end, is very poor.  They are utterly fucked by being shackled with rules that are tailored to NYC.  Fracking is safe.  It has been used for decades and all the alarmists nitwits, like that asshole with the flaming tap water documentary, are full fo shit.  Do you know another reason oil and gas prices are going down?  Fracking.  Frack here, frack now

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Mr.GuessWork said:

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zappaisgod said:
Something all of you who do not live in NY probably don't realize.  Upstate NY, say from the point at which the commuter lines to NYC end, is very poor.  They are utterly fucked by being shackled with rules that are tailored to NYC.  Fracking is safe.  It has been used for decades and all the alarmists nitwits, like that asshole with the flaming tap water documentary, are full fo shit.  Do you know another reason oil and gas prices are going down?  Fracking.  Frack here, frack now

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1.
As I understand it, most of the fracking jobs go to workers who travel around the country following the work, so the poor jobless guys in NY aren't going to see much benefit from fracking. The only local people who really win are landlords and hotel owners, because the rent prices get jacked up by all the sudden demand for housing. So, now the poor parts of NY are filled with drifters, and the po-mofos who actually live there can't afford to pay rent anymore.

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Gilgamesh18 said:

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koods said:
Are fucking kidding me? Even the oil companies admit that fracking causes earthquakes, specifically the waste water injections.

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Source? Why isn't North dakota decimated from earthquakes. I am sure the industry takes many safety precautions.

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zappaisgod said:

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Mr.GuessWork said:

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zappaisgod said:
Something all of you who do not live in NY probably don't realize.  Upstate NY, say from the point at which the commuter lines to NYC end, is very poor.  They are utterly fucked by being shackled with rules that are tailored to NYC.  Fracking is safe.  It has been used for decades and all the alarmists nitwits, like that asshole with the flaming tap water documentary, are full fo shit.  Do you know another reason oil and gas prices are going down?  Fracking.  Frack here, frack now

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1.
As I understand it, most of the fracking jobs go to workers who travel around the country following the work, so the poor jobless guys in NY aren't going to see much benefit from fracking. The only local people who really win are landlords and hotel owners, because the rent prices get jacked up by all the sudden demand for housing. So, now the poor parts of NY are filled with drifters, and the po-mofos who actually live there can't afford to pay rent anymore.

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Do those workers not eat and live in housing?

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Ya, they do, but that makes it more expensive for the locals to live there. Most of the profits go to migratory(right word?) workers, so the profits from the new jobs tend to leave the area, and the area remains poor and only slightly less jobless.

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2.
Fracking is safe when it is done properly. The pipes that carry the gas need to be shielded to depths well below the water levels. It's less costly not to do that, so it's common for the companies to cheap out on the shielding, which can and has caused damage to water supplies. The safety regulations around fracking are not what they should be.

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Where?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/22/halliburton-executive-drinks-fracking-fluid_n_933621.html

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The gas companies like to make settlements so they don't have to disclose the problems and ruin their image. The problems are rare and hyped up, but they do exist.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/04/us/04natgas.html?pagewanted=all

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3.
Fracking has nothing to do with the recent drop in oil prices. That's just silly. Fracking has been around for a while now, and our natural gas production is mouse nuts in the world oil market. Something else is causing the recent drop. I don't know what it is, but it's not fracking.

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Oh yes it most certainly does.  Increasing supply is just as effective as decreasing demand.

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The point is that a tiny increase here will not affect the whole worlds oil supply or demand, and it's the world supply and demand that affects oil pricing (among many other things of course). It's a global market and natural gas is a tiny itty-bitty little piece of it.

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P.S.
All you guys who said NY is the only state that gets a say in this are out of line. What about PA? Maybe they don't want the poor parts of NY. PA's probably already got it's hands full with allowing it's people to be exploited by the fracking companies.

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By being exploited you mean having jobs, both direct and support, and getting paid for leases.

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Ya, that's pretty much what I mean . I live in PA, and most people do like fracking. There are a few local jobs created by it, and people generally like getting an extra couple hundred thousand dollars from a lease. I haven't even heard of any water damage around my area. People do get screwed over by the legal stuff though, so there is some exploitation going on; usually when they're pissed it's because they got a shit deal and can't get a better one. But I was mostly not being serious with that last bit.

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zappaisgod said:
Look, economic activity spreads to almost all in an area one way or another.  If somebody signed a shitty contract without doing due diligence, tough shit.  Any increase in suopply, especially in the US has a negative effect on prices and fracking and shale are not tiny.  Also demand has not declined

https://www.google.com/search?q=2014+global+oil+consumption&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=gFPqVJLZCcyMNt2-g_gE&ved=0CDQQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=643#imgdii=_&imgrc=45UnkDuH0UkvyM%253A%3B8jgzw4T3TeYJ6M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Ffinancialpostbusiness.files.wordpress.com%252F2013%252F12%252Ffp1212_oil_demand_c_ab.jpeg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fbusiness.financialpost.com%252F2013%252F12%252F11%252Fiea-boosts-2014-global-oil-demand-forecast-on-u-s-recovery%252F%3B1240%3B569

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mpd said:
You can't debate a liberal using reason and facts, Zappa.

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Mr.GuessWork said:

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mpd said:
You can't debate a liberal using reason and facts, Zappa.

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That's hurtful. Calling me a liberal...

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Gilgamesh18 said:

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Mr.GuessWork said:

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mpd said:
You can't debate a liberal using reason and facts, Zappa.

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That's hurtful. Calling me a liberal...

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Libtard?

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Large areas of the United States that used to experience few or no earthquakes have, in recent years, experienced a remarkable increase in earthquake activity that has caused considerable public concern as well as damage to structures. This rise in seismic activity, especially in the central United States, is not the result of natural processes.

Instead, the increased seismicity is due to fluid injection associated with new technologies that enable the extraction of oil and gas from previously unproductive reservoirs. These modern extraction techniques result in large quantities of wastewater produced along with the oil and gas. The disposal of this wastewater by deep injection occasionally results in earthquakes that are large enough to be felt, and sometimes damaging. Deep injection of wastewater is the primary cause of the dramatic rise in detected earthquakes and the corresponding increase in seismic hazard in the central U.S. 

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