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Bloomer
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When does potency decrease? What factors in?
    #21302128 - 02/20/15 03:50 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

I've been trying to explain potency to people but every time just makes me realize I don't really understand it and am not sure whether I'm right. People that want them always seem to have a different preference or myth about how they should be. Like:
  • Small shrooms being more potent than large ones(an 8th of 3 small shrooms vs an 8th that is one large fruit) despite being picked at the same stage of veil breaking.
  • Caps being more potent than stems.
  • Cracker-dry shrooms being too dry, they believe a little crease of moisture inside binds the magic.


What human factors can affect potency? I know genetics is the biggest factor but that's mostly out of our control.

  • Does soil nutrition like cow poo affect potency of the fruits or just increases the quantity of the flush? aka Would the same genetic strain on a plain coir substrate be less potent?
  • What stage of the mushroom's growth has the highest % of actives by weight? Everyone suggests harvesting when the veil breaks, but what is the reason? Do the actives stop producing once it spores so that any more growth would dilute the weighted potency? Many times a mature mushroom is connected to a cluster of immature ones -  can I cut the cap off one that has broken its veil, and harvest the stem half later? Would that stop the growth of the stem and preserve the peak potency or would it begin to degrade or even decay?
  • People say that aborts are stronger by weight... how is that? That would make younger mushrooms most potent, or is it not also true of healthy, growing primordia? Are aborts pumped full of a "mature" amount of actives despite their immature, stunted size?
  • Once picked, what affects the degradation of the actives? I know they need to be dried - is that because psilocybin only degrades while wet? If so, is it not also degrading while it is wet in the live mushroom? Does bruising indicate damage to the actives or just that actives are present? Is bruising oxidation? Would it help to cut a mushroom down its length, bruising it badly, but speeding the drying process? What's the bigger factor in that case? Is it better to dry the mushrooms completely until they're brittle and light as paper, or leave a tiny bit of flexible mush to them?
  • I'm not concerned much with storing them for long periods, but if they're in a ziploc and out of the sun in a cool, dry place, is that close to ideal? How much damage could oxidation do at this stage to a cracker dry mushroom given a month or two? Does grinding them up reduce potency?


I know that was a lot of questions. Just trying to wrap my head around this and there's many different answers to be searched and they're often incomplete or don't explain. Could anyone please help establish the science?

Edited by Icon (02/20/15 04:11 AM)

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InvisibleStygianKnight
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Re: When does potency decrease? What factors in? [Re: Icon]
    #21302164 - 02/20/15 04:25 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Growing medium,
not really.
There may be some evidence of additives increasing potency but it's small and circumstantial compared to genetics.

Weight & potency,
By weight they seem to be most potent when they are tiny pins, hence why aborts are often considered strong.
However tiny pins weigh very little and it would take a whole flush to get even a single good trip.
Production of actives starts out high and slowly drops off as they mature, dropping to zero around the time the veil breaks.
Hence this is why most people say to pick at or before the veil breaks, they have created their full amount of actives without adding much dead weight.
Potency is mostly genetic, and when growing from spores can vary for each mushroom, so without eating them (or doing lab tests) the potency can't really be determined from looks alone.

Degradation,
Oxidation and possibly enzymatic activity is the main culprit of degradation.
It also depends on what chemical you are talking about, psilocin is much more unstable than psilocybin.
I have a hypothesis that many find wet mushies stronger than the equivalent dry because they contain more psilocin compared to dry.
However there's also evidence that if wet mushies sit around for too long they lose some of their potency.
They don't lose potency when on the substrate because they are living things with active biological processes which do things such as remove free radicals before they can harm things, contain intact cells reducing or preventing enzymatic activity in areas it's not wanted, etc.

Bruising,
Bruising is still not very well understood.
It's been assumed that it's the degradation of psilocin but the evidence for that is shaky.
It's also possible it's connected to a related but separate enzymatic activity.
Either way there's no evidence bruising reduces potency and many have tripped on mushrooms so bruised they looked black.

Drying,
When drying you always want to dry them till they are brittle, like paper, and sound like fall leaves when you touch them.
Not only does this allow them to keep longer but it reduces guess work when weighing.
Once dry and stored in an airtight container out of the sun they can last months to years, ground or whole doesn't seem to make a difference.
(when using plastic bags make sure to use freezer bags, general sandwich bags are too thin).

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Invisibleswatt_haze
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Re: When does potency decrease? What factors in? [Re: StygianKnight]
    #21302273 - 02/20/15 05:33 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

wow thanks for that info ^ :thumbup:

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Offlinebw86
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Re: When does potency decrease? What factors in? [Re: swatt_haze]
    #21302483 - 02/20/15 07:19 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

i know you said "What human factors can affect potency?" but still want to throw out there that genetics are the most important factor in potency.
Humans sometimes isolates genes that are more/less potent.

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OfflinePsilicon
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Re: When does potency decrease? What factors in? [Re: bw86]
    #21302491 - 02/20/15 07:21 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Human genetics also play a role. I, for instance, trip balls off of little girl doses.

I suspect age does, too.  :aweshit:


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Offlinebw86
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Re: When does potency decrease? What factors in? [Re: Psilicon]
    #21302510 - 02/20/15 07:28 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

lets go ahead and say an individuals metabolism.
it wont effect the mushrooms(obviously) but it does play a role in how strongly someone is effected.
same with all drugs.

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OfflinePsilicon
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Re: When does potency decrease? What factors in? [Re: bw86]
    #21302521 - 02/20/15 07:32 AM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, I agree that that is what I just said but better.  :lol:


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Bloomer
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Re: When does potency decrease? What factors in? [Re: Psilicon]
    #21305296 - 02/20/15 06:17 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Could we maybe get a TC's opinion on some of these? All input is appreciated. Thank you StygianKnight for giving it a thorough reply! But a lot of the points remain inconclusive and unexplained. I know what people say and what seems to be and what there's evidence of, but there's plenty of support for all the possibilities and very little science or proof of one over the others.

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Offlinebummerhigh
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Re: When does potency decrease? What factors in? [Re: Icon]
    #21305351 - 02/20/15 06:28 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

I have a gram that i dug out of my drawer, i hope they kept potency. when i grew them a while back I made tea using only a gram and tripped hard two nights in a row using the lemon and tea methods. maybe they still got theyre kick

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Offlinemore4u2c
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Re: When does potency decrease? What factors in? [Re: bummerhigh]
    #21305384 - 02/20/15 06:36 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Here in my neck of the world people think the bruising color means they are more potent lol so I always make sure to bruise them up good before dying them out lol the way I look at it is they for the most part will work and make people trip so it's best to do whatever it is people want if they like bruised up closed caps then I'll pick them right when/before the veil breaks and then bruise the shit out of them boom in thier eyes I have the best shrooms ever. Lol

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Offlinebummerhigh
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Re: When does potency decrease? What factors in? [Re: more4u2c]
    #21305407 - 02/20/15 06:41 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

bruising can be hard to avoid. i be gentle as possible and still have bruising that's easily noticed. i do not recommend bruising as it in now way will help potency. I assume it would the contrary

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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
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Re: When does potency decrease? What factors in? [Re: more4u2c]
    #21305440 - 02/20/15 06:48 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

more4u2c said:
Here in my neck of the world people think the bruising color means they are more potent lol so I always make sure to bruise them up good before dying them out lol





Same here and I do the same thing :lolsy:



the best is when you bruise APE or albino mushrooms...they legit turn ALL BLUE. They look like mushrooms from another planet. They look SO BOMB(according to them...hehe)


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..

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OfflinePsilicon
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Re: When does potency decrease? What factors in? [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #21305454 - 02/20/15 06:51 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

more4u2c said:
Here in my neck of the world people think the bruising color means they are more potent lol so I always make sure to bruise them up good before dying them out lol the way I look at it is they for the most part will work and make people trip so it's best to do whatever it is people want if they like bruised up closed caps then I'll pick them right when/before the veil breaks and then bruise the shit out of them boom in thier eyes I have the best shrooms ever. Lol




Quote:

Bill_Oreilly said:
Quote:

more4u2c said:
Here in my neck of the world people think the bruising color means they are more potent lol so I always make sure to bruise them up good before dying them out lol





Same here and I do the same thing :lolsy:



the best is when you bruise APE or albino mushrooms...they legit turn ALL BLUE. They look like mushrooms from another planet. They look SO BOMB(according to them...hehe)




:aweshit:


--------------------
Agar - what, why and how?  Everything a beginner needs to know.
Oat Prep Tek
Bored?  Please take one of my experiments off my hands.

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Offlinemore4u2c
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Re: When does potency decrease? What factors in? [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #21305503 - 02/20/15 07:03 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

I actually  think these myths that people think make them stronger are from the growers themselves. If you think about it from a producer point of view.

Closed caps = less messy spore droppings

Bruised stems = what happens when u pick shrooms and DGAF

small shrooms = faster to dry out

All the things that people think makes them stronger are actually things that make it easier for the growers

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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
ANIMALS (the RAINBOW SERPENT)


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Posts: 26,370
Loc: Boston
Re: When does potency decrease? What factors in? [Re: Psilicon]
    #21305527 - 02/20/15 07:09 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

van der griegen said:
Quote:

more4u2c said:
Here in my neck of the world people think the bruising color means they are more potent lol so I always make sure to bruise them up good before dying them out lol the way I look at it is they for the most part will work and make people trip so it's best to do whatever it is people want if they like bruised up closed caps then I'll pick them right when/before the veil breaks and then bruise the shit out of them boom in thier eyes I have the best shrooms ever. Lol




Quote:

Bill_Oreilly said:
Quote:

more4u2c said:
Here in my neck of the world people think the bruising color means they are more potent lol so I always make sure to bruise them up good before dying them out lol





Same here and I do the same thing :lolsy:



the best is when you bruise APE or albino mushrooms...they legit turn ALL BLUE. They look like mushrooms from another planet. They look SO BOMB(according to them...hehe)




:aweshit:





Its all in good fun. I don't sell mushrooms...I give them away occasionally so its not like im making extra cash off bruising them. I just like seeing the excitement on peoples faces when I show them completely blue mushrooms.

And hey...nothing is stopping them from doing a little research and finding out their beliefs are total bullcrap.


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..

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OfflinePsilicon
Really Nice Guy


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Re: When does potency decrease? What factors in? [Re: more4u2c]
    #21305530 - 02/20/15 07:11 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

I disagree regarding small mushrooms. You lose more in that last explosive gravitropic growth than you gain in dying time.


--------------------
Agar - what, why and how?  Everything a beginner needs to know.
Oat Prep Tek
Bored?  Please take one of my experiments off my hands.

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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: When does potency decrease? What factors in? [Re: bummerhigh]
    #21305546 - 02/20/15 07:14 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

In my experience, trip reports are an unreliable way to measure potency. Different things can affect the trip intensity. This is purely opinion based on anecdotal evidence from my own experience. But, I' couldn't even begin to know how many mushrooms I've eaten since about 1986.

Seems like food digestion lowers intensity as well as dehydration. Both of these affect overall brain function

Mood also affects intensity. This is because of the way they act on serotonin receptors.

I think these are the biggest factors that affect our experience and we are in different states at different times and from each other. That's why I can be the only one in the room not really trippin hard. It's easy to say it's just the varied genetics in a MS grow, and it is true, but not the whole truth.

I haven't noticed any difference between open and closed caps. But, I still pick them before the veil breaks because you gain very little, if any, dry weight. Plus, I think that's when they're at the sweet spot for weight to potency.


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Edited by SpitballJedi (02/20/15 07:16 PM)

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Offlinemore4u2c
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Re: When does potency decrease? What factors in? [Re: Psilicon]
    #21305568 - 02/20/15 07:20 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Well its more of a water content problem I currently have lol for some reason and I'm assuming it's a too dry substrate but it could be just MS Genetics  (I have not yet tried to get a mono agar sample) but all my grows have been very small shrooms only about a inch to a inch and a half tall. I know this isn't right and they should be a lot bigger but idk what I'm doing wrong but it's working out for me cuz people around here think the small one inches are stronger than a big one lol gotta love living in a town where shrooms never are around. That's the whole reason why I started to learn this hobby I moved here 6 years ago and in those 6 years only found one hook up on shrooms and they sucked lol

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InvisibleSpitballJedi
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Re: When does potency decrease? What factors in? [Re: more4u2c]
    #21305582 - 02/20/15 07:23 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

Are you saying you think water availability affects potency?


--------------------
The Basics
A little civility goes a long way

The Noob Forum
The Hammock Hangers' Forum

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OfflinePsilicon
Really Nice Guy


Registered: 08/26/12
Posts: 7,057
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: When does potency decrease? What factors in? [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #21305625 - 02/20/15 07:34 PM (9 years, 10 months ago)

I think he means that water availability affects the average mushroom size.


--------------------
Agar - what, why and how?  Everything a beginner needs to know.
Oat Prep Tek
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