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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineEntelle
wanderer

Registered: 11/05/03
Posts: 64
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
Re: the homeless.. dirty bums or clever bussinessmen? [Re: StonedShroom]
    #2131098 - 11/23/03 09:28 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

silversoul7, stonedshroom, quit yer bickerin'

you both say the same thing.

homeless should not be homeless and destitute. other stuff is just personal opinion. instead of repeating yopur argument over and over, changed only a bit for every line the other writes, start an intelligent conversation focussing on progress, not "im right so ha"


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"Not all those who wander are lost."


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Offlineiamhimheisme
jesus christ

Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 258
Loc: where i dont want to be
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
Re: the homeless.. dirty bums or clever bussinessmen? [Re: StonedShroom]
    #2131100 - 11/23/03 09:29 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

StonedShroom said:
And why does every feel the need to point out I'm a lesbian everytime I voice an opinion? What now just cuz I'm a lesbian my opinion isn't valid? You all think just just cuz I'm gay I don't have the human right to form an opinion?




its pointed out because one would think that as a member of a minority group widely looked down upon, you would have more compassion to those in similar situations. the homeless are portrayed unfairly and in an extremely negative light. so what if some of them have trouble with addiction, the only difference between them and some middle-aged housewife addicted to benzos is the financial situation. so what if your money is used by the homeless to buy drugs instead of food, would you rather buy arms for the military? thats probably the second place it would go...

so if you are pissed off because your money is being wasted, why the fuck are you giving these people money? buy them some food instead if you have a problem with their drug use.


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OfflineStonedShroom
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Re: the homeless.. dirty bums or clever bussinessmen? [Re: Entelle]
    #2131113 - 11/23/03 09:33 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Entelle said:
silversoul7, stonedshroom, quit yer bickerin'

you both say the same thing.

homeless should not be homeless and destitute.  other stuff is just personal opinion.  instead of repeating yopur argument over and over, changed only a bit for every line the other writes, start an intelligent conversation focussing on progress, not "im right so ha" 




:crazy: you do have a point there.


--------------------
We are not human beings going through a temporary spiritual experience.

We are spiritual beings going through a temporary human experience.



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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: the homeless.. dirty bums or clever bussinessmen? [Re: StonedShroom]
    #2131128 - 11/23/03 09:40 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

StonedShroom said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Welfare? Sure, there's lots of people who abuse the system, but here's a little news flash for you: Not all homeless people are on welfare, and it just shows your blind hatred for these people to assume that they are.




I don't have blind hatred towards these people. I'm just a little upset that they abuse a system that's meant to help them



And how do you do define abuse in this case? Doing drugs? So just cuz they're on the streets they can't get fucked up like the rest of us?

Quote:

Quote:


But lots of people do, and that's why it's not being done.




it's not being done cuz we gripe about it? So we're supposed to just sit here and quetly let them steal our money and maybe one day someone will be like 'oh you know what? maybe should being that with the money instead of this'?



Ok, I don't understand what you just said, but you see, people VOTE on things called "ballot measures" which sometimes have to do with things like this, and most voters don't want to vote on things that will use their tax dollars to help out some "scumbags."

Quote:

Quote:


Fine, but in the mean-time, why not get them something to eat?




how long is this 'mean-time' gonna last? I mean we've had a homeless problem for what? At least 21 years, as long as I've been alive.



And do you think that those homeless people are the same ones that were there 21 years ago? BTW, homelessness has existed since THE BEGINNING OF MANKIND, not just 21 years. It existed long before they ever got any of your "hard-earned" tax dollars, and it's never going to go away completely. I'm talking about individual homeless people who have problems that they're working to overcome. BTW, the average welfare recipient only stays on welfare for about 2 1/2 years, and does so because they unexpectedly have a child that they can't afford to raise, not because of some drug or alcohol addiction.

Quote:

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Oh, well then I guess he can just go buy a house with that money, can't he?




no. but he can pay something called RENT.



Which he has to pay EVERY MONTH. That's easier said than done.

Quote:

Quote:


So, how's he supposed to find a warm bed? Get a job? I think I already explained the problem with that.




it's a viscious cycle. cant get a job cuz no one will hire him. no one will hire him cuz he doesn't look presentable. he doesn't look presentable cuz he doesn't have a job. somewhere the chain has to break and changes need to be made...



Ya, and you think people never get out of homelessness? Some people just need time to get back on their feet, and in the meantime, they don't need your holier-than-thou condescending attitude, ok?

Quote:

Quote:


First of all, I seriously doubt most of them are averaging 11.25 an hour. Second of all, I'm a college student from an upper-middle class family, and it's hard enough for ME to find a job. How do you expect these people to do it? And finding a warm place to sleep? I'm still reliant on my parents, and can't imagine renting an apartment with a minimum wage job, let alone none at all.




ok so I don't know what it's like to be homeless. well guess what? you don't know what it's like being independant. Maybe once you get out and struggle and work 12 hour shifts waiting tables for $2.13 an hour just to pay rent you would understand why I think these people are lazy. I fuckin bit the bullet and worked my ass off, why can't they? You start off on the bottom and work your way up. Now I have a good job that pays more in two weeks than used to make in two months. Everyone struggles



So you started from the bottom, eh? Does that mean you were homeless? You had to have some sort of starting point, and I bet you were dependent on someone at some point along the way. Like you said: You don't know what it's like to be homeless.

Quote:

Quote:

So they made a mistake, and it's hard for them to get out of it. What, you've never made a mistake in your life? People who've made mistakes don't deserve a second chance?




yes they deserve a second chance. maybe even a third or fourth or 20th chance. whatever gets them off the streets... but that has got to BEGIN with them actually putting effort into it



And what makes you think they're not putting effort into it? I've worked at soup kitchens before and seen these people come in after job interviews. I've seen them struggle, and it's not fucking easy. I suggest you stop using stereotypes and look at thing the way they are.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineEntelle
wanderer

Registered: 11/05/03
Posts: 64
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
Re: the homeless.. dirty bums or clever bussinessmen? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2131145 - 11/23/03 09:47 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

k, this is getting ridiculous. a quote of a quote, and a righteously angry remark to back it up. nO-ONE IS RIGHT!!


--------------------
"Not all those who wander are lost."


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OfflineEntelle
wanderer

Registered: 11/05/03
Posts: 64
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
Re: the homeless.. dirty bums or clever bussinessmen? [Re: Entelle]
    #2131148 - 11/23/03 09:48 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

its just opinions


--------------------
"Not all those who wander are lost."


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: the homeless.. dirty bums or clever bussinessmen? [Re: Entelle]
    #2131159 - 11/23/03 09:53 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Angry? Who's angry? I'm just trying to show her that reality doesn't match up with her stereotypes.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineEntelle
wanderer

Registered: 11/05/03
Posts: 64
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
Re: the homeless.. dirty bums or clever bussinessmen? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2131160 - 11/23/03 09:54 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

and she is trying to do the same. feel compassion, cuz you are both right, and yet no-one is right. its just opinions


--------------------
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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: the homeless.. dirty bums or clever bussinessmen? [Re: Entelle]
    #2131165 - 11/23/03 09:56 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

It's not just opinions. It's facts vs. stereotypes.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineEntelle
wanderer

Registered: 11/05/03
Posts: 64
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
Re: the homeless.. dirty bums or clever bussinessmen? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2131170 - 11/23/03 09:58 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

and she has facts and such to back up her POV. and opinion. and i think it is your opinion, cuz everything in this world is defined to our person as our perceptions render it. i think the page is brown, but that is just my opinion, or is it my settings?


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OfflineMixomatosis
great ape

Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 1,306
Loc: cipherland
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: the homeless.. dirty bums or clever bussinessmen? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2131172 - 11/23/03 10:00 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

ah.. case closed.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: the homeless.. dirty bums or clever bussinessmen? [Re: Entelle]
    #2131177 - 11/23/03 10:01 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

As long as we both have facts to back up our opinions, I see no reason to stop this debate, just because you falsely claim "it's just opinions." If you don't like debate, then stay out of it. I, on the other hand, prefer to clear up misconceptions, of which she has plenty.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineNiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
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Re: the homeless.. dirty bums or clever bussinessmen? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2131179 - 11/23/03 10:02 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Ok Entelle, you've said it a thousand times. Saying the exact same thing in a thousand posts, when no one paid attention the first few times, isn't going to do much good.

And I agree that it isn't just opinions. There is such a thing as being more informed or basing your assesment on more facts than the person you're arguing with.


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OfflineEntelle
wanderer

Registered: 11/05/03
Posts: 64
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
Re: the homeless.. dirty bums or clever bussinessmen? [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2131187 - 11/23/03 10:06 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

All true. I guess I'll just butt out then. Just trying to be a peace maker. I think there is a better conversation in this than there has been so far, thats all.


--------------------
"Not all those who wander are lost."


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OfflineStonedShroom
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Re: the homeless.. dirty bums or clever bussinessmen? [Re: Entelle]
    #2131245 - 11/23/03 10:39 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

meh

As someone stated earlier we both have opinions so no need to go through and one-up each other. You won't ever see my POV I won't ever see yours.

So we have opposing opinions. I'm tired of having to repeat myself. And that quote-by-quote thing is dumb and tedious.

You don't know what it's like to be completely independant, I don't know what it's like to be homeless.

OH, BTW, when I started out 'on my own' when I was 18 I wasn't homeless, but I wasn't dependant. Only time I was ever 'dependant' after I moved out was last winter when I was FORCED to move back in my parents. (they literally came one saturday and moved my shit) They wanted to get me away from the drugs my roomie was selling/doing but brought me home where they had a medicine cabinate FULL of forgotten pills. And even then I still had a job. They didn't pay for shit, except for electricity and phone (no rent, they own their house) Well, I think I used their house phone like 3 or 4 times the entire time i was there, I mostly used my cell which i pay. And they were gonna pay for those things if i was there or not so i don't see it as them supporting me. I also got out of there ASAP cuz I see living with your parents over age of 18/19 as weak. Unless you're still in high school or have some type of disease/illness, of course. Oh and don't use college as an excuse cuz I paid for my own college BY MYSELF for two years. $300-$400 pymts a month. No loans. No grants. Just pure hard work. I worked 50+ hours a week at a crappy-ass server job and went to school as a full-time student and still kept a 3.5 GPA.

That's why I don't buy this feel sorry for the homeless BS for one second. I worked hard, why can't they?


--------------------
We are not human beings going through a temporary spiritual experience.

We are spiritual beings going through a temporary human experience.



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OfflineEntelle
wanderer

Registered: 11/05/03
Posts: 64
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
Re: the homeless.. dirty bums or clever bussinessmen? [Re: StonedShroom]
    #2131255 - 11/23/03 10:47 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

speaking as one who is going to college, and working one crappy-ass server job for min wage, and paying minimal rent to a compassionate friend, getting help from the parents for tuition: how the hell did you pull that off? I cant imagine.


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"Not all those who wander are lost."


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OfflineStonedShroom
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Re: the homeless.. dirty bums or clever bussinessmen? [Re: Entelle]
    #2131269 - 11/23/03 11:00 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

two words: ripped fuel... AKA OTC crank back in the day when it had ephedra

LOL just kidding.

I have too much pride. I hated the small rural meth-infested hypocritical town I lived in and I swore the day I turned 18 that I would make myself better than ANYONE who ever had the misfortune of being born there. I swore it wouldn't suck me in. And I let it be known I hated-no LOATHED-everyone there (minus family, of course). I want people to feel inferior when they were around me... not in a classic narcissistic way-but in a shameful way like "Damn, we came from the same place, but she made something of her life while I wasted mine away"

If it makes you feel any better last fall I 'took time off' school cuz I had a REALLY bad break-up and abused pharms. That lasted for like 2 months then I was like "I'm gonna turn into everyone else" and I snapped out of it. I will return to school fall '04 to complete my BS in biology... well technically microbiology. then I'll start a program to become a lab technician. Hopefully in the next year or so my aunt can get me on the job training in the lab cuz she does the same thing I want to do.

Uhm to narrow it down: pride, determination, vengence, and legal crank :smirk: 


--------------------
We are not human beings going through a temporary spiritual experience.

We are spiritual beings going through a temporary human experience.



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InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
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Re: the homeless.. dirty bums or clever bussinessmen? [Re: StonedShroom]
    #2131338 - 11/23/03 11:33 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

You should worry about your government taking your money, more than some starving homeless guy on the street. Tax you before you get paid, when you buy something, and tax you for owning it. The biggest budget in Amerikkka right now is the military. So sleep happy knowing that your hard-earned money went into a 140 million dollar missile to murder some innocent family..erm.. 'scum'.. halfway across the world, instead of helping a fellow human next door get a bite to eat..god forbid.

Your best personal experience with being homeless was after high school when you were 'forced' to go live with your parents. So you had free rent, electricity, and phone, and that was the closest to homeless you've come? Some of these people wish they were that lucky.

Not all homeless people are 'scumbags', addicted to drugs, who haven't worked hard their whole lives. In fact I find about the opposite to be true, many homeless people are in fact very hard workers. There are many different reasons for a person being homeless, laziness is one, but I guarantee you that's not the leading cause.

Unless you've been there, I would suggest keeping such hateful and judgemental opinions to yourself. How many homeless people have you known personally?

A good many homeless are disabled from past wars, and the military has not provided them with coverage, because they are too busy burning it on the next weapon of mass destruction. Most of the homeless people I know/have known, got that way because they got FUCKED IN THE ASS (not literally..), not because they didn't work hard, not because they were addicted to drugs, just because one day they woke up and found their life was gone. In fact most homeless turn to drugs after living on the street for a while, not the other way around.. you go live on the street for a month and come back with that same attitude.

So you don't know what it's like to be homeless. I find that interesting considering how vocal you are on the subject... lumping them all into the category of 'worthless, drug-addicted, scumbag'

Some people don't have the luxury of having 'parents' to go live with, or ones that even care about them for that matter. I have friends who were homeless for years, because their parents did not care about them and kicked them out at the age of 14. You want hard work? Try working in a field for 12 hours a day every day, making below minimum wage, not going to school, just to support yourself for food and clothes. Rent isn't even an option, it's just finding a warm place to sleep. That's just one scenario out of thousands.

I could go on and on.. but it's probably pointless.



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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: the homeless.. dirty bums or clever bussinessmen? [Re: Shroomism]
    #2131372 - 11/23/03 11:59 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Excellent post, Shroomism!  I'd give you 5 shrooms now if I hadn't already done so. :cool:


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: the homeless.. dirty bums or clever bussinessmen? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2131386 - 11/24/03 12:11 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Well I didn't read this entire thread, but I have had a few encounters with the homeless here in Atlanta. I have had them try and scam me countless times. I have had a homeless guy (I actually had this happen to me twice) try and take my wallet while I was trying to get some money to give him. I had a homeless guy shit on my car when I refused to give him money. Things like that make me not want to help the homeless, but I try and help them anyway. I think the bad homeless are turning everyone else off to the rest of them.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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